Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 9/23/2003 16:51:56 Central Daylight Time,
mark@... writes:
What is nowhere stated
is that cart-mounted bolt-shooters can _shoot_ over intervening troops at a
target on the same level, assuming they have visibility to that target. It's
implied -- otherwise the quoted passage above is redundant with 12.42 -- but
it
isn't actually stated. Nor can I find anything in the clarifications up
through
June 15 that addresses this issue.

So can I get some guidance on this point?
The cart of a cart mounted bolt shooter does not make it sufficiently high to
see/fire over other troops all on its own. The advantages of cart mounted
bolt shooters are faster movement and improved shooting arc.

The wording you note above has already been marked for improvement, first in
the list rule for the lists that have them and then in the 2d printing of the
rules.

Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Mark Stone]

With the impending arrival of Imperial Warrior I want to make sure that I
understand the behavior of cart-mounted bolt-shooters before my SHK wander into
unexpected trouble when facing Romans.

Here's my belief: cart-mounted bolt-shooters, unlike other bolt-shooters, can
shoot overhead over intervening bodies provided that (a) the bolt-shooters and
the target body are at least 40 paces from other bodies, and (b) the
bolt-shooters can see the target body. Seeing could occur if (a) if the target
body is elephants, or (b) if the target body is on a rampart or mobile tower, or
(c) if the target body contains a standard.

What I can't quite do is substantiate my belief based on what the rules say.
Here's my problem:

Visibility is established quite clearly in 12.42, a vast improvement in clarity
over TOG. It's shooting over other bodies that puzzles me. The relevant section
of the rules is 8.7 "Shooting by Rear Ranks or Over Another Body". The first
relevant statement in 8.7 is this one:
"Bolt-shooters can shoot from a rise, how ridge or knoll, or from or to a
rampart or hill... over intervening troops who are at least 40 paces distant
from both them and their target."

No separate mention is made here of cart-mounted bolt-shooters, and all the
conditions mentioned here apply to terrain-produced elevation, not to shooting
over another body on the same level.

The next relevant statement in 8.7 is this one:
"No other overhead shooting is permitted, even if to or from a greater height."

This seems quite absolute, taken in conjunction with the previous statement, and
seems to entail that bolt-shooters, whether on carts or not, cannot engage in
overhead shooting at targets on the same level. So far, so good.

Here's where the confusion comes in. The final relevant statements are these:
"Even when entitled to shoot over intervening troops, the target must be visible
to the shooting body. Bolt shooters on carts can only see standards and
elephants over intervening troops that are on the same level.... When shooting
over other troops, cart mounted bolt shooters must be able to see the target
being shot at and are still constrained by target priorities."

The explicit mention of cart-mounted bolt-shooters here suggests that they are
in some way different from other troops, and indeed other bolt-shooters. But
how? The statement mentions visibility, but indeed _any_ troops can see
standards and elephants over intervening troops. It says so in 12.42, so this
isn't a special property of cart-mounted bolt-shooters. What is nowhere stated
is that cart-mounted bolt-shooters can _shoot_ over intervening troops at a
target on the same level, assuming they have visibility to that target. It's
implied -- otherwise the quoted passage above is redundant with 12.42 -- but it
isn't actually stated. Nor can I find anything in the clarifications up through
June 15 that addresses this issue.

So can I get some guidance on this point?


-Mark Stone

[Mark Stone]

Jon,

Thanks for the prompt reply. I'm sorry to be dense here, but I just want to make
sure I understand. There are lead purchases at stake here, after all.

Here's an example:
I have 2 elements of SHK including a general facing 6 elements of Roman auxilia,
who are 120 paces away. 80 paces behind the auxilia, and within 480 paces of my
knights, are bolt shooters mounted on carts. No other units are nearby, and any
straight line from the bolt shooters to the knights passes through the auxilia.
The SHK, the auxilia, and the bolt shooters are all at the same elevation.

If the general has no standard the bolt shooters cannot shoot at the SHK. I got
that.

If the general does have a standard, which is visible to the bolt shooters, can
the bolt shooters shoot at the SHK?


-Mark Stone

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 9/24/2003 1:43:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
mark@... writes:

> If the general does have a standard, which is visible to
> the bolt shooters, can
> the bolt shooters shoot at the SHK?>>

Given the situation you described - No.

You aren't being dense at all - I have acknowledged the suboptimal wording of
the 'standards and elephants' part of that rule and we'll fix it.

And believe me - nothing I want to do more than to help a player get a lead
purchase right.

Now, we know that carts didn't raise a bolt shooter enough to shoot over blocks
of troops and our evidence is that it was mobility that the carts provided. Can
I tell you right now that there might not be some cool list rule that falls out
of our prep of imperial warrior? No, I cannot. But I can tell you there won't
be any indirect fire bolt shooters...

Jon