Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Mike Bard]

Four elements of Cretans (LI B Sh) are in a skirmishing column shooting at a
cavalry body. 120 paces to their right flank is a block of 3 elephants, one
element deep and three wide. The frontage of the elephant body is exactly
parallel to the right flank of the Cretans. In other words, both corners of
the entire elephant body are 120 paces away from the Cretan flank.

The Elephants declare a charge on the Cretans, and the Cretans choose to
evade (having passed their waver check). The Cretans can evade directly to
their rear, or directly to their left (which is directly away from the
charge).

According to 6.121: "A body that makes a 90-degree turn ends that move in a
column (6.42). As an exception, if the body was more than four elements (or
one model) deep, it must end a 90-degree turn in a block two or three
elements wide."

As far as I can tell, the Cretans can either evade directly to their rule,
perpindicular to the path of the charge, and be caught unless the elephants
roll down. Or, the Cretans can perform a 90-degree turn to their left,
ending up in a column one element wide and four deep facing directly away
from the Elephants (and having the rear of the column only 20 paces away
from the elephants. (There is a distance of 180 paces from the elephants to
the far edge of the Cretan column. The 90-degree turn places the front of
the lead element at the flank edge, or 180 paces away from the elephants.
The four element deep column is 160 paces deep (4 elements x 40 paces).
Taken 160 paces from 180 paces yields a distance of 20 paces from the front
of the elephants).

Is this understanding correct?

Michael Bard
That Greek Hoplite Guy (working for a better rulebook)

[joncleaves]

Four elements of Cretans (LI B Sh) are in a skirmishing column shooting at a
cavalry body. 120 paces to their right flank is a block of 3 elephants, one
element deep and three wide. The frontage of the elephant body is exactly
parallel to the right flank of the Cretans. In other words, both corners of
the entire elephant body are 120 paces away from the Cretan flank.

The Elephants declare a charge on the Cretans, and the Cretans choose to
evade (having passed their waver check). The Cretans can evade directly to
their rear, or directly to their left (which is directly away from the
charge).

According to 6.121: "A body that makes a 90-degree turn ends that move in a
column (6.42). As an exception, if the body was more than four elements (or
one model) deep, it must end a 90-degree turn in a block two or three
elements wide."

As far as I can tell, the Cretans can either evade directly to their rule,
perpindicular to the path of the charge, and be caught unless the elephants
roll down. Or, the Cretans can perform a 90-degree turn to their left,
ending up in a column one element wide and four deep facing directly away
from the Elephants (and having the rear of the column only 20 paces away
from the elephants. (There is a distance of 180 paces from the elephants to
the far edge of the Cretan column. The 90-degree turn places the front of
the lead element at the flank edge, or 180 paces away from the elephants.
The four element deep column is 160 paces deep (4 elements x 40 paces).
Taken 160 paces from 180 paces yields a distance of 20 paces from the front
of the elephants).

Is this understanding correct?>>
[
Yes. The moral of the story - don't get elephants on your flank! lol

J

[Mike Bard]

What this actually means, since it applies to any charge by any enemy body,
is that I will NEVER run my Cretans in four element bodies but instead in
six element bodies in which case they do a left face, end up in a block 3
elements by 2 elements and successfully evade. Same for all other
skirmishes as in the Warrior universe a larger skirmisher body is more
maneuverable during evades than a smaller skirmisher body.

Michael Bard
That Greek Hoplite Guy

> As far as I can tell, the Cretans can either evade directly to their rule,
> perpindicular to the path of the charge, and be caught unless the
elephants
> roll down. Or, the Cretans can perform a 90-degree turn to their left,
> ending up in a column one element wide and four deep facing directly away
> from the Elephants (and having the rear of the column only 20 paces away
> from the elephants. (There is a distance of 180 paces from the elephants
to
> the far edge of the Cretan column. The 90-degree turn places the front of
> the lead element at the flank edge, or 180 paces away from the elephants.
> The four element deep column is 160 paces deep (4 elements x 40 paces).
> Taken 160 paces from 180 paces yields a distance of 20 paces from the
front
> of the elephants).
> [
> Yes. The moral of the story - don't get elephants on your flank! lol
>
> J

[Kelly Wilkinson]

Mike,

Back when I first saw the Fast Warrior lists, I asked myself why Scott
Holder chose to build Infantry units in 6 elements. I used to run my troops in 4
elements until I read an article by Mark Stone considering that very point. I
have found that often I like to do the "1 Barker shuffle" to the right or left
and the rules pretty much screw 3 or 4 element units by putting you back in a
column. Why I didn't come to realize that 6 element infantry would be superior
for maneuver is beyond me. The rule for Reg 4 element units turning 90 degrees,
moving 1 Barker, and executing a Left face in a column is a Barker hold over. I
doubt that it will change, so, I suggest you go to 6 element units for the added
maneuver or try to convince Jon there needs to be a change (not likely to happen
as Jon has already said that I won't change the core rules).

kw

Michael Bard <mwbard@...> wrote:
What this actually means, since it applies to any charge by any enemy body,
is that I will NEVER run my Cretans in four element bodies but instead in
six element bodies in which case they do a left face, end up in a block 3
elements by 2 elements and successfully evade. Same for all other
skirmishes as in the Warrior universe a larger skirmisher body is more
maneuverable during evades than a smaller skirmisher body.

Michael Bard
That Greek Hoplite Guy

> As far as I can tell, the Cretans can either evade directly to their rule,
> perpindicular to the path of the charge, and be caught unless the
elephants
> roll down. Or, the Cretans can perform a 90-degree turn to their left,
> ending up in a column one element wide and four deep facing directly away
> from the Elephants (and having the rear of the column only 20 paces away
> from the elephants. (There is a distance of 180 paces from the elephants
to
> the far edge of the Cretan column. The 90-degree turn places the front of
> the lead element at the flank edge, or 180 paces away from the elephants.
> The four element deep column is 160 paces deep (4 elements x 40 paces).
> Taken 160 paces from 180 paces yields a distance of 20 paces from the
front
> of the elephants).
> [
> Yes. The moral of the story - don't get elephants on your flank! lol
>
> J


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[Kelly Wilkinson]

Corrections I meant "he" wouldn't change any core rules. I can do whatever "I"
want in my basement with the rules. Hmmm... that sounds kinky. . .

k :)

kelly wilkinson <jwilkinson62@...> wrote:
Mike,

Back when I first saw the Fast Warrior lists, I asked myself why Scott
Holder chose to build Infantry units in 6 elements. I used to run my troops in 4
elements until I read an article by Mark Stone considering that very point. I
have found that often I like to do the "1 Barker shuffle" to the right or left
and the rules pretty much screw 3 or 4 element units by putting you back in a
column. Why I didn't come to realize that 6 element infantry would be superior
for maneuver is beyond me. The rule for Reg 4 element units turning 90 degrees,
moving 1 Barker, and executing a Left face in a column is a Barker hold over. I
doubt that it will change, so, I suggest you go to 6 element units for the added
maneuver or try to convince Jon there needs to be a change (not likely to happen
as Jon has already said that I won't change the core rules).

kw

Michael Bard <mwbard@...> wrote:
What this actually means, since it applies to any charge by any enemy body,
is that I will NEVER run my Cretans in four element bodies but instead in
six element bodies in which case they do a left face, end up in a block 3
elements by 2 elements and successfully evade. Same for all other
skirmishes as in the Warrior universe a larger skirmisher body is more
maneuverable during evades than a smaller skirmisher body.

Michael Bard
That Greek Hoplite Guy

> As far as I can tell, the Cretans can either evade directly to their rule,
> perpindicular to the path of the charge, and be caught unless the
elephants
> roll down. Or, the Cretans can perform a 90-degree turn to their left,
> ending up in a column one element wide and four deep facing directly away
> from the Elephants (and having the rear of the column only 20 paces away
> from the elephants. (There is a distance of 180 paces from the elephants
to
> the far edge of the Cretan column. The 90-degree turn places the front of
> the lead element at the flank edge, or 180 paces away from the elephants.
> The four element deep column is 160 paces deep (4 elements x 40 paces).
> Taken 160 paces from 180 paces yields a distance of 20 paces from the
front
> of the elephants).
> [
> Yes. The moral of the story - don't get elephants on your flank! lol
>
> J


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[Mark Stone]

--- On March 3 Mike Bard said: ---

> What this actually means, since it applies to any charge by any enemy body,
> is that I will NEVER run my Cretans in four element bodies but instead in
> six element bodies in which case they do a left face, end up in a block 3
> elements by 2 elements and successfully evade. Same for all other
> skirmishes as in the Warrior universe a larger skirmisher body is more
> maneuverable during evades than a smaller skirmisher body.

Well, there are a variety of reasons why 6 elements is the "magic number" for
line and skirmish units, but this isn't one of them. If your Cretans are in a 3
wide, 2 deep formation, and must evade to the side -- I think this is the case
we're talking about -- then they will form a 1 x 6 column, since they were
originally 2 deep, which is 4 deep or less.

Now, once they are in that 1 x 6 column, any further 90 degree turns they make
enable them to end up either 2 or 3 wide, instead of in column, and that's a
good thing. And it's good to start the game in a 1 x 6 column, particularly if
you're regular, as in approach moves you can move up full and expand to
elements to either side. Thus starting in a column gives you much greater
flexibility about final position, without diminishing forward movement.


-Mark Stone

[joncleaves]

What this actually means, since it applies to any charge by any enemy body,
is that I will NEVER run my Cretans in four element bodies but instead in
six element bodies in which case they do a left face, end up in a block 3
elements by 2 elements and successfully evade. >>

That would only be true if they started in a column six elements deep and were
charged from the falnk. Mike, and I am NOT being wise here, if you are getting
charged on the flank so routinely that you are thinking of developing tactics
for it, maybe there is another issue at hand...

<< Same for all other
skirmishes as in the Warrior universe a larger skirmisher body is more
maneuverable during evades than a smaller skirmisher body.>>

This is not true, in my opinion. I think you are misreading the turn 90 degrees
and evade rules. I also think you are basing this on the case where you get
charged in the flank and not any 'normal' situation one should be preparing for.

J

[joncleaves]

Well, there are a variety of reasons why 6 elements is the "magic number" for
line and skirmish units, but this isn't one of them. If your Cretans are in a 3
wide, 2 deep formation, and must evade to the side -- I think this is the case
we're talking about -- then they will form a 1 x 6 column, since they were
originally 2 deep, which is 4 deep or less.>>

Mark is correct here.

<<Now, once they are in that 1 x 6 column, any further 90 degree turns they make
enable them to end up either 2 or 3 wide, instead of in column, and that's a
good thing. And it's good to start the game in a 1 x 6 column, particularly if
you're regular, as in approach moves you can move up full and expand to
elements to either side. Thus starting in a column gives you much greater
flexibility about final position, without diminishing forward movement.>>

Correct again. My additional point is that if you are keeping your 6E LI in
column just because you want to evade flank charges better, then there is a
problem there....lol

J

[Mike Bard]

> Well, there are a variety of reasons why 6 elements is the "magic number"
for
> line and skirmish units, but this isn't one of them. If your Cretans are
in a 3
> wide, 2 deep formation, and must evade to the side -- I think this is the
case
> we're talking about -- then they will form a 1 x 6 column, since they were
> originally 2 deep, which is 4 deep or less.

Note that a 6 element body deployed 3 wide and 2 deep had a frontage of
180mm. If it reverts to a column it will be 6 elements deep or 180mm.
That's much better than doing a right/left face and suddenly appearing
almost in contact with the chargers. :)

Michael Bard
That Greek Hoplite Guy

[joncleaves]

In conclusion, there were other reasons I was in column, the
charge/inability to evade was simply a nasty and unforseen result that I am
adopting a simple measure to ensure it never happens again.>>

Reasonable enough. I just find that there are so many other reasons to be 4E
reg LI that I wanted you to consider the *possibility* this is an overeraction
to something unlikely. I can't fault the thoughtfulness of your process.

J

[Mike Bard]

The situation was that I had to be in column to fit into a gap (there was a
light infantry unit that was destroyed the prior bound between the Cretans
and the elephants) and I wanted to take a shot in skirmish formation at a
disordered two element body of HC directly in front of the skirmishing
column.

This is the first time this has happened to me in about a hundred games so I
don't think it is a major tactical failing on my part.

The reason I wish to adopt to it is that by going to a six element body, a
fairly minor change, I ensure that if this wierd situation ever comes up
again, I can deal with it safely. In other words, I'm making a low cost
army structure change, in order to prevent a highly unlikely, but
potentially devastating position.

In conclusion, there were other reasons I was in column, the
charge/inability to evade was simply a nasty and unforseen result that I am
adopting a simple measure to ensure it never happens again.

Michael Bard
That Greek Hoplite Guy.

> That would only be true if they started in a column six elements deep and
were charged from the falnk. Mike, and I am NOT being wise here, if you are
getting charged on the flank so routinely that you are thinking of
developing tactics for it, maybe there is another issue at hand...
>
> << Same for all other
> skirmishes as in the Warrior universe a larger skirmisher body is more
> maneuverable during evades than a smaller skirmisher body.>>
>
> This is not true, in my opinion. I think you are misreading the turn 90
degrees and evade rules. I also think you are basing this on the case where
you get charged in the flank and not any 'normal' situation one should be
preparing for.
>
> J

[Mark Mallard]

In a message dated 03/03/2005 16:30:17 GMT Standard Time,
mark@... writes:

**there are other reasons to be 6 elements deep (pike) - imagine the end
unit of your infantry line gets into combat - doing well - but following bound
is charged in flank - still doing well so no prob until unit you are beating
has gone - then you cannot turn due to space to your right or left- the 6 deep
unit does not have this prob.

beer on board so please excuse.

mark mallard
**

--- On March 3 Mike Bard said: ---

> What this actually means, since it applies to any charge by any enemy body,
> is that I will NEVER run my Cretans in four element bodies but instead in
> six element bodies in which case they do a left face, end up in a block 3
> elements by 2 elements and successfully evade. Same for all other
> skirmishes as in the Warrior universe a larger skirmisher body is more
> maneuverable during evades than a smaller skirmisher body.

Well, there are a variety of reasons why 6 elements is the "magic number" for
line and skirmish units, but this isn't one of them. If your Cretans are in
a 3
wide, 2 deep formation, and must evade to the side -- I think this is the
case
we're talking about -- then they will form a 1 x 6 column, since they were
originally 2 deep, which is 4 deep or less.

Now, once they are in that 1 x 6 column, any further 90 degree turns they
make
enable them to end up either 2 or 3 wide, instead of in column, and that's a
good thing. And it's good to start the game in a 1 x 6 column, particularly
if
you're regular, as in approach moves you can move up full and expand to
elements to either side. Thus starting in a column gives you much greater
flexibility about final position, without diminishing forward movement.


-Mark Stone






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