Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

joncleaves · Moderator Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447

I am having a bitch of a time visualizing V's that cannot be charged in the
flank. Before we go further into this one, could you tell me why it is their
flanks are not exposed?

Don Coon · Imperator Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 2742

I am 3X2 Irr B LHI 2HCW,JLS+Sh. I am facing 2 1X2 bodies of REG LHI
JLS+Sh.They are 60p distant and 60p apart roughly centered on my body..
Their front edges are not parallel with me. They are angled back 30
degrees, so that the V they make is towards my center, and the point of the
V is furthest away from me.

I can not charge right? There is no way for me to hit either enemy and
pivot to conform. Are we correct in the rules reading that bodies being
charged can be moved to help the "lining up" but do not move to help the
"pivot to conform". The rules do not support a body being charged moving to
aid a pivot. Ok so all the above being true, when I am faced by a 3X2 mob I
just need 2 units to angle their faces away from the mob, and his immense
size precludes him from charging. Cheese or good tactics?

Don

joncleaves · Moderator Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447

Don, you win. Despite no one else having any idea how this situation occurs
or why you think someone can't charge one of the 1x2s, I will lay it out
along with the rules as soon as I am back from vacation. That would be after
Aug 12th.
There can be no answer before then except one of them will be chargable, just
as we all know they are now. Just have to see where the supposed disconnect
is.

No answer before the 12th. i will NOT try and answer this 'off-the-cuff' and
I have no time before then.

Between now and the 12th is the time to get those 'issues' in, as after then
- no more until after publication.
Jon

joncleaves · Moderator Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447

yes, but Don, (despite my telling you to wait until the 12th....)

either:
1. the V angle is sharp enough the flanks are exposed OR
2. it is shallow enough that a wheeling charger can get get an end element
onto one of them

of course, a wide enough charger can just charge them both...

I will look at the language of pivoting and fit to make sure we have not
screwed up, but noone at HCon could either replicate or had ever had this
problem.

Don Coon · Imperator Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 2742

----- Original Message -----
From: <JonCleaves@...>
To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] charges and angles

> I am having a bitch of a time visualizing V's that cannot be charged in
the
> flank. Before we go further into this one, could you tell me why it is
their
> flanks are not exposed?

It happens EVERY game we play.

You are 3X2, I am 2 1X2. My front edges are not parallel to you, but
slightly (say 10 degrees) angled back. To see it place your hands finger
tip to finger tip (each hand represents a 1X2 body). Now place your hands
with their backs up to a wall. Bring your fingers towards your body 10
degrees keeping your hands planar. Step back 60p from the wall. Now the
wall is the 3X2 body. The wall wants to charge either or both of your two
hands. It is impossible to fit. It can not pivot to conform to either one.
What does the wall do? Not charge as the rules are written.

Don

Don Coon · Imperator Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 2742

> Don, you win. Despite no one else having any idea how this situation
occurs
> or why you think someone can't charge one of the 1x2s.

That is frightful, because it is crytal clear to us. Are you pivoting the
body being charged to conform to the chargers if the chargers are unable to
pivot? Thats what we all think you are doing, but the rules do not allow
this.

6.165 Lining UP allows a body being charged to move to get elements to line
up, if the charger is prevented from doing so, but 6.165 pivoting to conform
does not allow for bodies being charged to pivot in the event that the
chargers are prevented from doing so.

Don

Just a thought, but if you reply with you phone number I will call you on my
nickle and maybe make myself clear? I know you are busy, but as you have
said we have a big disconnect here, and I do not know how to do a jpeg.

Private email is jendon@...

Recruit Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 187

Read the rest of 6.165:

Ref 6.165 (in part, just before the section on Flank Charges):"If other bodies or impassable terrain features prevent the body from lining up, apply the following:1. If other bodies or terrain would not prevent lining up the non-charging body, then do so.2. If neither body can be lined up due to other bodies or terrain, treat them as though they have lined up for all purposes."
(message number 1894, 7/7/01)

joncleaves · Moderator Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447

Yes, Don, it may very well be that clarifying the pivot rule is the answer.
And when I have TIME to look at it in detail, I'll let you know.

Don Coon · Imperator Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 2742

Read the rest of 6.165:

Ref 6.165 (in part, just before the section on Flank Charges):"If other bodies or impassable terrain features prevent the body from lining up, apply the following:1. If other bodies or terrain would not prevent lining up the non-charging body, then do so.2. If neither body can be lined up due to other bodies or terrain, treat them as though they have lined up for all purposes."
(message number 1894, 7/7/01)

Read it, been there, done that. This IS NOT a lining up thing it is a pivoting thing. 6.165 does NOT allow for a body being charged to PIVOT into contact with the charger if the charger can not pivot into the charged body. Jon keeps saying either a flank is exposed or the angle is shallow enough so that an end element can get in, but I can show you a COMMON example of wherethis is not true. I have posted the example countless times, including yesterday again. If the body charging is wider than the space occupied by the 2 1X2 bodies forming the V (but not so wide that it will have a full element to get beyond either of the 1X2 flanks - imagine a 3X2 body charging 2 1X2 in a 20 degree included angle V, the bodies making the V are NOT in contact but about 50P apart. This makes the distance between the points of the V about 115p, now center this on the 3X2 body), The wide charger moves forward and hits the points of the V. A flank charge has not occured because the wide body is not wide enough to have gotten an element past either 1X2 bodies flank. A frontal charge is not possible because, not way the wide body can PIVOT to conform to either of the 1X2 bodies without hitting the other one first. The only way to allow this charge to occur is to allow, the charged body to be pivoted into the chargers (the thing we think should happen).

Roger et all, If you think 6.165 covers this problem, we beg. plead, cajole the PIVOTING para to include the text : "If other bodies or impassable terrain features prevent the body from PIVOTING to conform, apply the following:1. If other bodies or terrain would not prevent lining up the non-charging body from doing so, then pivot the non charging body to the charger.

This is what we think is happening out there.

Don

Don Coon · Imperator Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 2742

>Don, (despite my telling you to wait until the 12th....)
>
> either:
> 1. the V angle is sharp enough the flanks are exposed OR
> 2. it is shallow enough that a wheeling charger can get get an end
element
> onto one of them
>
> of course, a wide enough charger can just charge them both...
>
> I will look at the language of pivoting and fit to make sure we have not
> screwed up, but noone at HCon could either replicate or had ever had this
> problem.

I wish I was in your living room. It would take 10 seconds for you to show
me what we (or you) are missing Smile

.

Don

Greg Regets · Imperator Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 2988

Actually Jon, I agree with Don, you can make V's that can't be hit anywhere.

However, if you intend to eliminate the need to line up elements IF AT ALL POSSIBLE, this eliminates this problem.

Good luck and happy writing.

G

-----Original Message-----
From: JonCleaves@aol.com [mailto:JonCleaves@aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 7:34 PM
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] charges and angles

Don, you win. Despite no one else having any idea how this situation occurs
or why you think someone can't charge one of the 1x2s, I will lay it out
along with the rules as soon as I am back from vacation. That would be after
Aug 12th.
There can be no answer before then except one of them will be chargable, just
as we all know they are now. Just have to see where the supposed disconnect
is.

No answer before the 12th. i will NOT try and answer this 'off-the-cuff' and
I have no time before then.

Between now and the 12th is the time to get those 'issues' in, as after then
- no more until after publication.
Jon

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Greg Regets · Imperator Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 2988

I should have read Rogers post first .... especially since I was the one that talked Jon into this, haha

G

-----Original Message-----From: Roger Walker & Family [mailto:rwalker@gdsps.com]Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 10:17 PMTo: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.comSubject: Re: [WarriorRules] charges and angles
Read the rest of 6.165:

Ref 6.165 (in part, just before the section on Flank Charges):"If other bodies or impassable terrain features prevent the body from lining up, apply the following:1. If other bodies or terrain would not prevent lining up the non-charging body, then do so.2. If neither body can be lined up due to other bodies or terrain, treat them as though they have lined up for all purposes."
(message number 1894, 7/7/01)To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:WarriorRules-unsubscribe@egroups.comYour use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Patrick Byrne · Centurion Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 1433

I have uploaded onto the Warrior files a jpeg which is a picture of our
problem.
I hope this helps everyone.
-PB

DONALD COON wrote:

> >Don, (despite my telling you to wait until the 12th....)
> >
> > either:
> > 1. the V angle is sharp enough the flanks are exposed OR
> > 2. it is shallow enough that a wheeling charger can get get an end
> element
> > onto one of them
> >
> > of course, a wide enough charger can just charge them both...
> >
> > I will look at the language of pivoting and fit to make sure we have not
> > screwed up, but noone at HCon could either replicate or had ever had this
> > problem.
>
> I wish I was in your living room. It would take 10 seconds for you to show
> me what we (or you) are missing Smile

.
>
> Don
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> WarriorRules-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

joncleaves · Moderator Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447

Greg - that lining up rule already exists - last two lines of 'lining up' section of 6.165. I think something similar might be in order for the pivot section as well to deal with Don's 'issue'. Just don't know yet.

joncleaves · Moderator Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 16447

Thank you, Pat, I will get to this jpeg as soon as I can and I am sure it will help. I am also beginning to think that what is going on is a too-strict interpretation of the pivot rule, but don't know yet.