Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

I am about to embark on the mammoth painting of my Chinese army - lots
of foot which I have been waiting for Oriental Warrior to come out
before completing.

As you would know, most options allow a choice between LTS or 2HCT for
the line foot.

What would people recommend - it appears to me that LTS are going to
get towelled big time by pikes in an open comp, but 2HCT cost a bit
more, and we are trying for really cheap foot here, and lots of them.

Is there a clear choice?

muz

[Todd Schneider]

Which list are you doing...and is it possible to have
units armed with both, that is one with LTS and 1 with
2HCT?

Todd

--- murray evans <mdevans@...> wrote:

> I am about to embark on the mammoth painting of my
> Chinese army - lots
> of foot which I have been waiting for Oriental
> Warrior to come out
> before completing.
>
> As you would know, most options allow a choice
> between LTS or 2HCT for
> the line foot.
>
> What would people recommend - it appears to me that
> LTS are going to
> get towelled big time by pikes in an open comp, but
> 2HCT cost a bit
> more, and we are trying for really cheap foot here,
> and lots of them.
>
> Is there a clear choice?
>
> muz
>
>
>

I don't see any reason to arm a unit with a mix of LTS, 2HCT though. They
can't fight in both ranks that way, so one rank will end up being wasted.

I've been wrestling with this myself, Murray. One of the problems is that
when armed with 2HCT they are going to drop their shields after bound two of
HTH. Now they are shieldless mediums, so do you upgrade them to HI as well?
Now that they aren't really cheap anymore do you also want to upgrade them
to morale C? The unit ends up costing alot of points in an army where
infantry probably wont be winning the victory. Or do you leave them as
shieldless mediums and plan on rolling up? I don't know since I haven't been
playing this long enough to have figured it out.


Allan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd Schneider" <thresh1642@...>
To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 8:27 PM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Chinese LTS or 2HCT?


> Which list are you doing...and is it possible to have
> units armed with both, that is one with LTS and 1 with
> 2HCT?
>
> Todd
>
> --- murray evans <mdevans@...> wrote:
>
>> I am about to embark on the mammoth painting of my
>> Chinese army - lots
>> of foot which I have been waiting for Oriental
>> Warrior to come out
>> before completing.
>>
>> As you would know, most options allow a choice
>> between LTS or 2HCT for
>> the line foot.
>>
>> What would people recommend - it appears to me that
>> LTS are going to
>> get towelled big time by pikes in an open comp, but
>> 2HCT cost a bit
>> more, and we are trying for really cheap foot here,
>> and lots of them.
>>
>> Is there a clear choice?
>>
>> muz
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Allan Lougheed"
<redcoat24@c...> wrote:
> I've been wrestling with this myself, Murray. One of the problems
is that
> when armed with 2HCT they are going to drop their shields after
bound two of
> HTH. Now they are shieldless mediums, so do you upgrade them to HI
as well?
> Now that they aren't really cheap anymore do you also want to
upgrade them
> to morale C? The unit ends up costing alot of points in an army
where
> infantry probably wont be winning the victory. Or do you leave them
as
> shieldless mediums and plan on rolling up? I don't know since I
haven't been
> playing this long enough to have figured it out.
>
>
> Allan
>
Yes, and I haven't chosen a specific list either - although both
Later Tang and Qin are likely - the first because I think it is more
competitive in open comp, and the second cause I have 8 chariots
looking for something to do. In which case LTS is probably the safer
option - can be used for both lists.

Muz

[Todd Schneider]

I was referring to a possible option where the unit
could be armed with either weapon, but not both at the
same time.

Todd

--- Allan Lougheed <redcoat24@...> wrote:

> I don't see any reason to arm a unit with a mix of
> LTS, 2HCT though. They
> can't fight in both ranks that way, so one rank will
> end up being wasted.
>

[Mark Stone]

Having put together a Chinese core of figures in the last 6 months, I've spent
quite a bit of time thinking about this issue. The answer comes down to unit
roles, and to put it in really simple terms, it's basically this:

-Shock units want to maximize casualties they put out, so build your units to
maximize casualties;
-Line units want to minimize casualties they receive, so build your units to
minimize casualties.

There are some additional nuaces, mainly that line units need to be plentiful,
and therefore cheap, whereas shock units to to be assured they have what it
takes to do the right job at the right time, even if it means spending a few
more points.

This basically means that line units should be D class MI with LTS, and perhaps
an element of C class thrown in. Shock units should be the best morale class
you can get them, HI in the front, and armed with 2HCT. An exception to this is
lists where you can get fire lance for the infantry, since LTS with fire lance
gives you the best of both worlds for relatively few points. The other factor
to keep in mind is that 2HCT, who become shieldless on the second bound of
combat, _really_ don't want to be MI.

Look at some numbers: a 6 stand unit of Reg D MI LTS, half shielded, with one
element of C class (several Chinese lists can get this configuration) costs 74
points. It will fend off cavalry as well or better than a unit of all 2HCT,
will do somewhat worse against elephants, and somewhat worse at contact against
impetous foot, but not so very differently against nonimpetuous foot (as it gets
to charge or counter-charge and get 2 full ranks fighting, compared to a rank
and a half at a better factor with 2HCT).

A 6 stand unit of Reg C 2HCT with HI in the front and MI in the back, and
shields for the front rank, costs 166 points. That's more than twice as
expensive. Were I to use such guys, I'd put them in a 4 stand unit and deploy
them in a one element wide column. That way, even disordered your opponent
still counts as fighting the HI, and you can always expand them out to two
elements when you're sure the situation warrants it.

I think a better bargain is the same 4 stand unit of half HI, half MI, but armed
with LTS and fire lance instead. Sure, you only get to use fire lance once, but
it's generally that first time that matters, and being +1 with -- hopefully --
two full ranks that disorders mounted by doing 1 CPF, and remaining shielded
after the first bound, and being cheaper because LTS+firelance is still less
than 2HCT.... well, that just seems like a much better value to me.


-Mark Stone

[Frank Gilson]

LTS, in 32 man units. Why?

Let's use your example of pike. 32 Reg C MI P,Sh charge 32 Reg C MI
LTS,Sh who countercharge.

24 @ 4 vs. 16 @ 4. Without significant dice differences, the LTS
troops merely recoil.

Depending on where on the LTS unit the Pike unit is, following bounds
the Pike keep pushing forward, but the LTS unit still just recoils.

So, no, they don't get creamed. "Something else" needs to get added to
the mix on either side to cause a result.

The purpose of your many LTS foot is to hold the line, not beat
anything.

What about 2HCT MI then, vs. pike?

Pike are 24 @ 3 vs. 2HCT 12 @ 4. 2HCT MI recoil, just like the LTS.
Bound 2, however, they count shieldless! The pike then handily rout
the 2HCT all on their own.

Clearly you can't run big 2HCT blocks if you fear enemy infantry.

Also, mounted lancers beat 2HCT pretty handily, while they can't just
go smashing into LTS.

2HCT is best on small units of high morale, preferrably loose order,
foot who are counter-attackers, looking to hit halted enemies.

Frank Gilson

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "murray evans" <mdevans@k...>
wrote:
> I am about to embark on the mammoth painting of my Chinese army -
lots
> of foot which I have been waiting for Oriental Warrior to come out
> before completing.
>
> As you would know, most options allow a choice between LTS or 2HCT
for
> the line foot.
>
> What would people recommend - it appears to me that LTS are going to
> get towelled big time by pikes in an open comp, but 2HCT cost a bit
> more, and we are trying for really cheap foot here, and lots of them.
>
> Is there a clear choice?
>
> muz

hi

I think you need to consider that a 24 man LTS unit will be
disordered first hit by the pike in your example(24 at 4=72) while a
32 man unit wont. A 24 man unit will be waver testing second round
(disordered again) almost certainly as d's. 32 man units also make it
much harder for an elephant (or some bold lance armed cav) to get a
cpf and recoil you in a first round. I personally always use LTS over
2hct (ever since qin lost its "Irreg a" 2hct anyway) simply because
the units work out so much cheaper and this allows you to buy a large
and effective mounted attack arm (either chariots or cav or even
better both)

Martin





--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Gilson"

<franktrevorgilson@h...> wrote:
> LTS, in 32 man units. Why?
>
> Let's use your example of pike. 32 Reg C MI P,Sh charge 32 Reg C MI
> LTS,Sh who countercharge.
>
> 24 @ 4 vs. 16 @ 4. Without significant dice differences, the LTS
> troops merely recoil.
>
> Depending on where on the LTS unit the Pike unit is, following
bounds
> the Pike keep pushing forward, but the LTS unit still just recoils.
>
> So, no, they don't get creamed. "Something else" needs to get added
to
> the mix on either side to cause a result.
>
> The purpose of your many LTS foot is to hold the line, not beat
> anything.
>
> What about 2HCT MI then, vs. pike?
>
> Pike are 24 @ 3 vs. 2HCT 12 @ 4. 2HCT MI recoil, just like the LTS.
> Bound 2, however, they count shieldless! The pike then handily rout
> the 2HCT all on their own.
>
> Clearly you can't run big 2HCT blocks if you fear enemy infantry.
>
> Also, mounted lancers beat 2HCT pretty handily, while they can't
just
> go smashing into LTS.
>
> 2HCT is best on small units of high morale, preferrably loose
order,
> foot who are counter-attackers, looking to hit halted enemies.
>
> Frank Gilson
>
> --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "murray evans" <mdevans@k...>
> wrote:
> > I am about to embark on the mammoth painting of my Chinese army -
> lots
> > of foot which I have been waiting for Oriental Warrior to come
out
> > before completing.
> >
> > As you would know, most options allow a choice between LTS or
2HCT
> for
> > the line foot.
> >
> > What would people recommend - it appears to me that LTS are going
to
> > get towelled big time by pikes in an open comp, but 2HCT cost a
bit
> > more, and we are trying for really cheap foot here, and lots of
them.
> >
> > Is there a clear choice?
> >
> > muz