Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 7/13/2003 20:29:40 Central Daylight Time,
sscott04@... writes:

> Last comment, thank you Jon, I did not realize you
> could order your commands after positioning terrain >>


Yet another place where people are trying to play 7th....lol. Heck, last
HCon, there were a couple people in the Warrior tourney with only 7th rulebooks.
Needless to say they had difficulty. And were sure not going to get a break
from the ump...lol

>
> Now two real questions (you learn so much reading the
> rules):
>
> 1) 6.2 says ' A (March) segment is 240 paces long if
> entirely across open or other terrain and 120 paces long if
> any body eneters, crosses or is in a very rough area or an
> obstacle (6.71)'. How I have always played it.
>
> But 6.712 says ' A march segment starting in or
> crossing a very rough or obstacle is reduced to 120 p unless
> LI (6.2).
>
> This might be in an interp/carification, but which is
> it? Sorry to everyone who I argued agianst about this.

6.2 should include the LI clause. Good catch - will fix in next
clarifications.

>
> 2) From the something I did not know files. Terrain and
> line of sight.: 12.42 'LI halted or making approach moves in
> vineyards, marsh, rocky areas or brush cannot be seen beyond
> 120 paces'. No quick judgement, mull this over. That means no
> tossing LC into brush to get rid of those pesky dudes unless
> within 120 paces. Short range for XB, LB and sling (XB is
> actually equivalent due to the extra guy from the second
> rank). WOW. I always just charged away from deep, not wanting
> to take missle fire from before the charge. Presumably if my
> XB/LB shoots at something over 120 paces, I assume it can
> then be charged (though it can't be seen so how can it be
> charged-yeah some bolts arrows came from those rocks, yeah
> (with a good shot) we took a waver, but at 121 paces we just
> can't see/charge the little dudes)? Also, does the LI being
> known counteracts this (I doubt it for much the same reason
> as troops have to be real close and friendly in the woods- no
> comments please). Yes or no will do, just never played it
> that way and would have yelled bloody murder if dumped on me
> in a game. Well, maybe a bit more than yes/no, to remove the
> cloud from my acking brain.

Huh? lol Are you asking if LI making approaches or halted can be seen
beyond 120p? If so, then the answer is no. If you were asking something else,
if
would be best if you simplified the question. And yes, a target must be
visible to charge unless through a friendly body in a permissible
interpenetration.

J


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Group,

A couple of comments and questions.First let me say I
was a bit ungenerous to Jevon from rereading my last post and
seeing the replies. What I should have said is that I am more
impetuous than I should be with my CinC, not to imply that
Jevon does not use his CinC (and army) with a great
precision, though sometimes making different choices then I
would.

Let me point out we have been playing teams for the
better part of a decade together and that when we play teams
we compliment each other and play as a true team. We decide
on on army, each buying 975 points of troops (the extra 50
for the additional cost of a CinC), merge the lists, and make
sure they are legal. Usually Jevon gets the LC, bow armed
dudes, and hardest hitting infantry while I take the knights
or hardest hitting Cav with some (minimal) support infantry,
usually ir D, or pretty useless guys, just enough to keep
opponents off my cav till it hits. Usually I try and hit
first, Jevon peppering the enemy, and looking for places to
exploit. I tend to try to get my games over in 2 hours to
ensure it is done in 4. I should point out that we work
together in getting a plan and discuss movements some
(especially if one of us is making a truly awful mistake),
but generally allow each other to push his own troops, and
when there is a question, the owner of the troops gets veto
power. Also, I usually cede the CinC to Jevon as I realize I
toss him up and in situations that make many uncomfortable
(lets say I am aggresive, impetous even).

With that background, I will give two instances,
which I was thinking of when posing (somewhat vaguely) the
commiting CinC question.Note: Apologies to anyone who I
offend with incorrect recollections or details.

The first was against Knights of Saint John (Mark S.
and Bill C.) with us having Romanian Franks. My command, the
hammer, was unreliable and under forced wait orders. The
quickest way to get rid of this situation is to be shot for 2
cpf (if cav) and charge. My target was a venetian XB unit
beyond some brush. I got close enough to take 2 cpf to
charge. To the right of the XB unit was some THCT JLS dudes
where I had the rest of the command lining up, and to the
left a spearmen unit. The same turn (2 or 3) I charged,
Jevons Catalins charged the spear unit. The spears routed, I
tired, disordered and shot down, did not rout my opponent,
nor even push him back (I think it might have been a 24 fig
unit. I went down the middle with my EHK). Next turn, my
Franks were out of position to hit the inside element
(between the one I hit and the spearmen) as my Irregulars
could not make the angle and my regular Italians where in the
second line. The only unit capable of reaching was the CinC.
I would have likely tossed him in if playing in singles (to
also face the Venetian Knights coming the next turn to
support the foot). The reasoning on my part being only the
second rank, 4 dudes, would support shot (the front rank
having already fought), enough with my knight hitting the
other open element to ensure a push back. I was (correctly)
vetoed since it was the CinC and he would have likely taken a
Venetian Knight (SHK, Sh) charging through the routing
infantry or halted and disordered, tired in both cases. (My
arguement was that you cause wavers that could realy hurt and
allow the game to be broken open). As a result, my second
kinght unit (rolling down 2 or so with a up 2 support shot
against him (maybe some exaggeration)) was not enough to push
back the XB. My first unit (also not happy- might have been
shaken after first combat round) routed. My general shook, to
be saved the next turn, both lines stabilized, and Jevon and
I lost a 3 or 4 to 1, largely due to my 2 knight units not
making it home as spearmen are much cheaper (the Catalins
were porbably starting to get flanked or near it, but
survived). OK, back to my question, would people have tossed
the CinC in that (or similar dicey) situation. Hindsight is
20/20, and obviously if I thought the moment ended being as
important as it was I would pushed Jevon for the charge, but
the game was still early (hour 1 of 4), the CinC would have
likely been tagged the next turn or so by fresh better
knights, with us having some fresh, but not a lot of,
support. It can easily be seen how this early situation could
have played out for our benefit, but I truly understand the
logic (more so on writting this) on why the CinC was not the
man for the job.

The second part of the question was advancing the
CinC into harms way. Again in teams this time playing French
with the Oriflame. The first game the general with the
peasent command went unreliable and forced wait, so we eneded
up promting the peasents (Ir D, JLS in first two ranks, IPW
the second two ranks I think) to charge, and they shook and
got eaten. So we then put them under the CinC to make sure
they could go (also brings up the making the coomands issue,
I will never again put my important units under a sub- as an
unexpected wait or hold order can really ruin a battle plan-
too bad our kings or captains have no idea how their subs
will preform on the field (i.e. why do we set up commands
before dicing for generals and after terrain?). This game was
against Indians (Gupta?- Tim B. and Ambrose). The peasents
lined up on elephants (with one or two of the four peasent
units also near chariots- under 7th these were two causes of
unease and not just one). I thought we should toss the
Oriflame (CinC, Ir) forward to get at least so of the
peasents charging impetuoesly. Of course the down side if
things go even or bad you have an irregular CinC K facing
down elephants. We opted to have the peasants be a speed bump
(they actually did OK, surviving a turn or two) (ie. the CInC
stayed back) and fight to a draw (I believe, something like 3
(T and A)-2 (J and S)). The question, how much danger will
you put the CinC in to get the banner moving forward. The
peasants (or Purssian with Tuets, etc.) were bought to
counter elephants or to toss into pike, but that necesitates
getting close for a general against something that could go
bad quickly (Knight being crunched by elephants). Maybe a
better way to ask the question is do people think this is a
valid tactic (when there is little good choice) for a army.
High risk, but posibly high return (peasants beating
elephants can really demoralize an opponent)?

A quick point to the guy buying the Normans (Wanax).
I love peasants (Pilgrims), I win with them (sometimes
fighting well is not necessarily good) but I always buy them
at least 12 elements (i.e. as big as posible under the
rules), 1st two ranks JlS (THCW if avaliable) and at least
two units (which Normans do not qualify for). Obviously, if
one element can be C (or A), they get it, but no more. What
I have learned about these units is that if you expect them
to lose, they win. You want them to die and draw in an
opponent, they win the first turn or two, and then blow up,
with little movement. They cause wavers (contrary to what
was said-unless list rule not in the book) and almost always
the unit in position to follow up on the gains of the
peasents, shakes. I will continue to buy these guys as the
first wave (in various flavors) but find they are better at
holding ground, and sometimes eating non pike elephants, but
otherwise can be a pain to manuver arround and can get in the
way of eating that opposing CinC (did I say they always win
when you want them to lose. You can ride through routed
ones, but not ones that are winning. Shouldn't that be a
French list rule, ride through peasents at whim?). I should
also point out, that in my hands, they are more likely to
pass wavers than my veterans and guards.

Last comment, thank you Jon, I did not realize you
could order your commands after positioning terrain (I am a
slave to balanced commands, equivalent in strength, number of
units etc.). Though I can see how it could be a great
addition to the stall tactics, position terrain, oh, I need
to take a constituional/have a small bladder/ need coffee,
oh let me write my army list, oh let me place my first
command... where is that particular/special element.... It is
good for adding another 10 minutes to a stallers tactics,
thank for pointing it out. (This is all in jest, and I will
point out many times its me running to the bathroom writing
my list, etc- though I think few opponents would ever accuse
me of stalling).

Now two real questions (you learn so much reading the
rules):

1) 6.2 says ' A (March) segment is 240 paces long if
entirely across open or other terrain and 120 paces long if
any body eneters, crosses or is in a very rough area or an
obstacle (6.71)'. How I have always played it.

But 6.712 says ' A march segment starting in or
crossing a very rough or obstacle is reduced to 120 p unless
LI (6.2).

This might be in an interp/carification, but which is
it? Sorry to everyone who I argued agianst about this.

2) From the something I did not know files. Terrain and
line of sight.: 12.42 'LI halted or making approach moves in
vineyards, marsh, rocky areas or brush cannot be seen beyond
120 paces'. No quick judgement, mull this over. That means no
tossing LC into brush to get rid of those pesky dudes unless
within 120 paces. Short range for XB, LB and sling (XB is
actually equivalent due to the extra guy from the second
rank). WOW. I always just charged away from deep, not wanting
to take missle fire from before the charge. Presumably if my
XB/LB shoots at something over 120 paces, I assume it can
then be charged (though it can't be seen so how can it be
charged-yeah some bolts arrows came from those rocks, yeah
(with a good shot) we took a waver, but at 121 paces we just
can't see/charge the little dudes)? Also, does the LI being
known counteracts this (I doubt it for much the same reason
as troops have to be real close and friendly in the woods- no
comments please). Yes or no will do, just never played it
that way and would have yelled bloody murder if dumped on me
in a game. Well, maybe a bit more than yes/no, to remove the
cloud from my acking brain.

Thank you all (especially Jon) for the indulgence and
answers.

Sean

ps. I just noticed that the prefight general challenges have
been dropped from Warrior. Will that be back in Campaign
Warrior. Yot rid of the best weapon in the Knight armies
arsenal. Challenge that Elephant general (unless has LB).
Hopefully he is niave enough to accept (Ok more of a pipe
dream). Then insist that the combat is on foot. I would have
actulaly liked to try that once. lEast face it the penelty of
an uneager army just ins't that bad when your lances are
facing tasks.

[Doug]

Dude, learn to use paragraphs if you want people to read it.

Which dude are you talking to Doug?

Doug <rockd@...> wrote:Dude, learn to use paragraphs if you want
people to read it.

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