Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

Group,

>> The first was against Knights of Saint John (Mark S.
>> and Bill C.) with us having Romanian Franks. My command, the
>> hammer, was unreliable and under forced wait orders. The
>> quickest way to get rid of this situation is to be shot for 2
>> cpf (if cav) and charge. My target was a venetian XB unit
>
>OK: I would not have sent my knights to get shot up and
charge across
>brush, but rather changed my order . Sill, assuming that
we're in
>this situation...
>
><snip> I would (I think, from your description) not have sent
in the
>CinC; it sounds as though you are trying to reinforce
weakness, rarely
>the best plan. The fact that it's the CinC is of small but
limited
>relevance, as he'll cause extra wavers, but the same decision
would be
>made regardless.
>

OK, was looking for your opinion and won't argue about sending
the CinC in as I think many would agree with you.

About the putting first unit (and in the second set of
comments, not changing the orders) in order to disrupt the
wait due to an unreliable general I will say a few quick words
and would like (expect) some rebutal.

The one time I tried to change the order of an unreliable from
wait it took till at least turn 5, (rolled at least 1 more 1
for interpretations). Even on a good day it takes till turn 2
(regulars) or 3 (irregualrs/ally) for the change to occur with
a command of 5 units or so and a turn to align charges. By
turn three most armies have their lines formed and become the
most formitable. In turns 1 and 2, enemy lines are unformed,
the space between units is most likely to be off, and more
mistakes on judging distance occur (and cavalry armies can
cause the most havoc). Also, in turns 1 and 2, the enemy is
most likely to change their plan and start moving guys from
one flank to another, helping you to face only part of the
army at a time, also causing traffic jams in the backfield.

On turn 3, something magical happens, lines are formed, most
won't send their troops from one flank to the other as the
enemy is closest to the front, and all those nasty overlap
shots during support and prep shooting are there. All the
support troops are in line with the force marchers/heavy
infantry, the second strike capability is there as opposed to
might be there, probably taking at least one waver.

For knight armies (unless you believe in the late surgical
strike and winning in the final turn) it is imperative
(obviously in my view) to hit an often superior number of foes
before the lines are set and you can be overwelhmed. Usually
knight support infantry is inferior (either dure to morale,
armor, or weapon choice) to your opponent (or fighting other
knights these units are hunted), therefore you will usually
lose/draw in a staight up fight, buying time, but never having
enough to really push and win bbig (5 points). If you are
disciplined to launch a surgical strike late, then you can
win. But most, including me, will start leeching off a unit to
hold the line here and there, have the infantry get in the
way, etc. Therefore, the best option is to hit early.

Example:

Trun one: Force Marches: You LI, them Pike.
You march your (regular) knights 240 from pike, they march
elephants 240 from LI, all these uints are now in a 240 by 240
box.

Turn 2, Them: pike move up, maybe, and elephants move up to
flank of pike. You: your LI move to where elephants will be
(160 paces), your knights move up, 81 paces from from pike,
dismout.

Turn 3, Them: elephants align with pike, move up. You: align
LI and knights, making sure the LI are the charge target of
elephants.

Knight pike charge each other (can go either way, depending on
pike depth). Elephant charge LI, or hold.

Turn 4, Elephants are either facing the LI still or have
charged out unable to recall. Your knights now will win if won
the first turn or come near to breaking even if lost first
turn. Elephants which charged last turn can counter (4+ for ir
C) or continue forward.

I realize this is a optimized example, but I think typical and
necessary for discussion.

If unreliable, and you go turn 3 or 4 to move close, you are
now facing pike/elephant in line with many more options since
now elephants can step forward (having more charge options)
and protecting the pike from the charging knights or have
second turn capability to hit SHI in the flank because they
are in front of the pike, the LI unable to do anything because
they can't chrage. LMI would help, but then the pike have more
options, but these can get in the way of your knights, taking
valuable real estate, so LI is better.

Now with knight armies, by turn three it is similar, but
replace pike with Lb/XB/B. The opposing knights are in the
holes as you are. Either their knights will charge and kill
your li/lmi/etc. and you charge the enemies, seeing whose
morale is better, or you charge knights on knights, hoping
your sub par infantry is better than the enemies subpar
infantry (OK, Catalins change this a bit, but since not missle
armed will likely never initially see the front line when
facing opponent knights).

If you are disciplined for the final strike, you can hold your
knights till the end, but then you better rout enemy on
contact (element for element) else you will get no points for
the game and have no time to follow up on holes/pushbacks you
create.

Now you might ask, why not go for the LI/LC flank. THe answer
is simple, it takes to long to win there during a tournament,
and even if you do, the points are so small and generally the
lc/li come from different commands. You can get 3, maybe 4
points, but it is extremely hard to get 5. And the game will
end before you get near the expensive units.

Long answer to the question, why not wait for reorders (with
knights), but it comes down to do you want to try and have an
advantage (hit turn 2 maybe 3- and an hour has passed in a
tourney game, so only 2.5 hours left if 4 hour round (0.5
spend on setup), then go head to head with a formed army with
(generally) less guys and inferior infantry (which matter more
in formed battles), or wait for a last strike. I will point
out that the game you mentioned with Dave S., he basically
used the terrain to break up your line, causing a turn 2/3
situation late in the game for an equivalent strike I
describe. And generally it is this sort of chaos that will
allow a surgical stike to occur. I content it is had for a
knight army to face a formed infantry army, unless they go
element to element (usually a unit per element or foot/horse)
to ensure that the enemy breaks on contact and to cut down on
support/prep shooting. Even if lmi, especially if the lmi is
6E plus and 3 E deep. As a typical 6E foot unit is 100-150
points, the cost is far too high when you consider a typical
knight unit is 80 (HK) to 120 (SHK-best for surgical strike).
Other knight units are crap shots and most HC will not be in
line or be able to evade, while elephants would love to make
your aquaintence.

You will have 360 points against 100 points. Assuming you won
nowhere else, you need 12 units to ensure 400 points (ensuring
meaning your opponent made all waver tests. Commands go on
retreat top of next turn, which there is in a late surgical
strike), imposible on 1600 points (well I have done this, but
army is real thin).

Therefore, unreliable and wait orders bad, and they must be
changed, even if going accross brush to get xb (remember the
reason for doing this was not to kill the xb, but to charge
ensuring my orders went to attack).

>> The second part of the question was advancing the
>> CinC into harms way. Again in teams this time playing French
>> with the Oriflame. The first game the general with the
>> peasent command went unreliable and forced wait, so we eneded
>> up promting the peasents (Ir D, JLS in first two ranks, IPW
>> the second two ranks I think) to charge, and they shook and
>> got eaten. So we then put them under the CinC to make sure
>
>I guess again I do not understand why you would not change
the order
>here. Or are you finding that you don't have time to do this?
>
>> against Indians (Gupta?- Tim B. and Ambrose). The peasents
>> lined up on elephants (with one or two of the four peasent
>> units also near chariots- under 7th these were two causes of
>> unease and not just one). I thought we should toss the
>> Oriflame (CinC, Ir) forward to get at least so of the
>> peasents charging impetuoesly. Of course the down side if
>
>I agree here. It sounds as though your battle plan is
essentialy hosed,
>and you have a small chance to get out of it, so send the
CinC forward.
>if the peasants all die, you've lost anyway.
>

See above.

Sean

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 7/15/2003 10:40:26 AM Eastern Standard Time,
sscott04@... writes:

> Therefore, unreliable and wait orders bad, and they must be
> changed, even if going accross brush to get xb (remember the
> reason for doing this was not to kill the xb, but to charge
> ensuring my orders went to attack).>>

Sean

Just one point from me in this discussion. Yes, you can only charge from WAIT
if you take 2cpf from shooting. But, if someone shoots you when you have WAIT
orders, he deserves what he gets. If I am facing a WAIT command, the last thing
I am going to do is shoot him for 2cpf.... I'd be ganing up on the non-WAIT
command and using the fact that the WAITer can't cross the table center to my
advantage.

J

[Greg Regets]

Excellent response Jon ... in my opinion. :-)

For players that might be not so experienced, translate what was said here in
these very few words by Jon into a larger consideration about generals,
commands, prompting and orders.

What makes sense, and why?

Which general does not check to be reliable - whom should be commanding which
troops?

How large, in unit count, should your attack wings be if they are commanded by
a sub-general? How many generals should you buy?

How do you deploy, such that if a command goes to wait, can you get a few
things in front of them long enough to screen them while you resolve your
problems?

What are the occasional advantages of a small attack wing command, starting
under wait orders.

Take care and happy gaming!!! Greg



> <html><body>
>
>
> <tt>
> In a message dated 7/15/2003 10:40:26 AM Eastern Standard Time,
sscott04@...
writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Therefore, unreliable and wait orders bad, and they must be<BR>
> > changed, even if going accross brush to get xb (remember the<BR>
> > reason for doing this was not to kill the xb, but to charge<BR>
> > ensuring my orders went to attack).>><BR>
> <BR>
> Sean<BR>
> <BR>
> Just one point from me in this discussion.  Yes, you can only charge from
WAIT if you
take 2cpf from shooting.  But, if someone shoots you when you have WAIT orders,
he
deserves what he gets.  If I am facing a WAIT command, the last thing I am
going to
do is shoot him for 2cpf....  I'd be ganing up on the non-WAIT command and
using the
fact that the WAITer can't cross the table center to my advantage.<BR>
> <BR>
> J<BR>
> </tt>
>
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