Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 5/4/2004 18:30:57 Central Daylight Time,
redcoat24@... writes:
I think I figured out how to use the existing list to make this unit:

6E Reg C 1/2 HI 2HCT 1/2 MI LTS 154 points

The front rank is HI backed by a rear rank of spears. I don't see anything in
the rules that explicitly disallows this. Now how would the Tactical mods
work? Is the opponent -1 facing 2HCT and another -2 facing LTS at first
contact?
When charging, it seems to me that you would get to fight with the entire
front rank plus the entire rear rank. >>

Nope. lol

Here's why:

First, 9.22 says "(LTS) A second rank of foot using LTS fights at full
effect if close formation and charging or counter-charging enemy foot, otherwise
at
half effect. "

As the LTS in this example is not a second rank of LTS (it is the only rank
of LTS) none of those figures count. LTS only fights behind other LTS.

As for the factors, you only count facing the weapons of the element in
contact for the minus modifiers. (clarifications 1.261).

Don't worry, you won't need to do things like this with the new FHE Han
list... ;)

Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 5/4/2004 19:07:24 Central Daylight Time,
redcoat24@... writes:
I hope it was good for a chuckle Jon. I think feel the lapse of reason
passing now.
Allan >>

You are to be commended for thinking about making dismounting work. It's
complex, but rewarding.

Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This is a post about the existing WRG Han dynasty list. I came up with something
Bizzare and realized I should bring this up before the new list is published. In
all likelyhood, only a newbie like me would come up with this.

I think I figured out how to use the existing list to make this unit:

6E Reg C 1/2 HI 2HCT 1/2 MI LTS 154 points

The front rank is HI backed by a rear rank of spears. I don't see anything in
the rules that explicitly disallows this. Now how would the Tactical mods work?
Is the opponent -1 facing 2HCT and another -2 facing LTS at first contact? When
charging, it seems to me that you would get to fight with the entire front rank
plus the entire rear rank.

I came up with this using the comment from the list that states " Regular
Cavalry can be in mixed units" So I made up a mixed unit and then dismounted
them. They are essentially dismounted dragoons. They're about the same cost as
Winged Forrest Orphans and probably more effective. (There is 24 of these guys,
I only get 16 orphans for the same price. Plus, If I want to do something else
with my lack lustre regular cavalry, this sucks up all of my manditory cavalry
choises for those types.

Should that be right?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I hope it was good for a chuckle Jon. I think feel the lapse of reason passing
now.
Allan
----- Original Message -----
From: JonCleaves@...
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 7:47 PM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Crazy Talk


In a message dated 5/4/2004 18:30:57 Central Daylight Time,
redcoat24@... writes:
I think I figured out how to use the existing list to make this unit:

6E Reg C 1/2 HI 2HCT 1/2 MI LTS 154 points

The front rank is HI backed by a rear rank of spears. I don't see anything in
the rules that explicitly disallows this. Now how would the Tactical mods
work? Is the opponent -1 facing 2HCT and another -2 facing LTS at first
contact?
When charging, it seems to me that you would get to fight with the entire
front rank plus the entire rear rank. >>

Nope. lol

Here's why:

First, 9.22 says "(LTS) A second rank of foot using LTS fights at full
effect if close formation and charging or counter-charging enemy foot,
otherwise at
half effect. "

As the LTS in this example is not a second rank of LTS (it is the only rank
of LTS) none of those figures count. LTS only fights behind other LTS.

As for the factors, you only count facing the weapons of the element in
contact for the minus modifiers. (clarifications 1.261).

Don't worry, you won't need to do things like this with the new FHE Han
list... ;)

Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Doug]

>First, 9.22 says "(LTS) A second rank of foot using LTS fights at full
>effect if close formation and charging or counter-charging enemy
>foot, otherwise at
>half effect. "
>
>As the LTS in this example is not a second rank of LTS (it is the only rank
>of LTS) none of those figures count. LTS only fights behind other LTS.

Hmmm... That might be what you meant, but I don't think the grammar says it.

I don't think the reader is unambiguously forced to interpret "A
second rank" according to your intent.

This game mostly uses the word "rank" to denote to the POSITION of
figures, not their position AND armament. If you are going to use
the same term in different ways, things will be misinterpreted.

Maybe you could reword this kinds of sentence for the 2nd edition--
something like
"Two adjacent ranks of foot using LTS also fight the second rank at
full effect if...

[Ewan McNay]

JonCleaves@... wrote:
> First, 9.22 says "(LTS) A second rank of foot using LTS fights at full
> effect if close formation and charging or counter-charging enemy foot,
otherwise at
> half effect. "
>
> As the LTS in this example is not a second rank of LTS (it is the only rank
> of LTS) none of those figures count. LTS only fights behind other LTS.

I assumed that the way Jon reads this was th 'right' way - b/c
that's how it was in 7th. But: I know at least two folks who
have constructed armies on the wrong - Allan's - reading, and I
admit that I would have joined them without game-history.

The quotes sentence does not say 'a second rank of foot using LTS
fights at full effect *if behind a front rank also using LTS*...'
- and it should, to make the limits clear.

[[Incidentally, and in the 'dubious loophole' category, how about
this idea that I reluctantly decided was too cheezy to spring in
a tournament: List rules for Scots Common note that 'Lowland
spearmen always fight two full ranks in hth.' No exceptions.
Now, in the late period one is permitted to upgrade half of those
LTS to 2HCT. As list rules override general rules, one would now
indeed be able to run front--rank 2HCT, rear rank LTS, and fight
all figs. (Although the -2 for 'facing' LTS would not be taken,
based on the newly defined 'facing')]]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 5/5/2004 10:43:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
ewan.mcnay@... writes:

> > First, 9.22 says "(LTS) A second rank of foot using LTS fights at full
> > effect if close formation and charging or counter-charging enemy foot,
otherwise at
> > half effect. "
> >
> > As the LTS in this example is not a second rank of LTS (it is the only rank
> > of LTS) none of those figures count. LTS only fights behind other LTS.
>
> I assumed that the way Jon reads this was th 'right' way - b/c
> that's how it was in 7th. But: I know at least two folks who
> have constructed armies on the wrong - Allan's - reading, and I
> admit that I would have joined them without game-history.
>
> The quotes sentence does not say 'a second rank of foot using LTS
> fights at full effect *if behind a front rank also using
> LTS*...'
> - and it should, to make the limits clear.>>

I completely agree and will make it so.

Jon

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Ewan McNay <ewan.mcnay@y...>
wrote:
> [[Incidentally, and in the 'dubious loophole' category, how about
> this idea that I reluctantly decided was too cheezy to spring in
> a tournament: List rules for Scots Common note that 'Lowland
> spearmen always fight two full ranks in hth.' No exceptions.
> Now, in the late period one is permitted to upgrade half of those
> LTS to 2HCT. As list rules override general rules, one would now
> indeed be able to run front--rank 2HCT, rear rank LTS, and fight
> all figs. (Although the -2 for 'facing' LTS would not be taken,
> based on the newly defined 'facing')]]

Don't you mean -2 facing steady LTS and -1 facing 2HCT for a total
of -3? :)

It is a wonder the Scot's didn't crush the world...oh right, they
did; just wearing a redcoat instead of a dirty kilt! ;D

Wanax

[Ewan McNay]

Wanax Andron wrote:

> --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Ewan McNay <ewan.mcnay@y...>
> wrote:
>
>>[[Incidentally, and in the 'dubious loophole' category, how about
>>this idea that I reluctantly decided was too cheezy to spring in
>>a tournament: List rules for Scots Common note that 'Lowland
>>spearmen always fight two full ranks in hth.' No exceptions.
>>Now, in the late period one is permitted to upgrade half of those
>>LTS to 2HCT. As list rules override general rules, one would now
>>indeed be able to run front--rank 2HCT, rear rank LTS, and fight
>>all figs. (Although the -2 for 'facing' LTS would not be taken,
>>based on the newly defined 'facing')]]
>
>
> Don't you mean -2 facing steady LTS and -1 facing 2HCT for a total
> of -3? :)

No - b/c the LTS would not be in contact, see the new definition
of 'facing'. That was my point .

Actually, of course, one is better fighting the LTS in front and
the full rank of 2HCT behind. Then you're not even shieldless
second bound. Duh.

Ewan, you wrote;

----- Actually, of course, one is better fighting the LTS in front and
the full rank of 2HCT behind. Then you're not even shieldless
second bound. Duh.-----

What good would it be having 2HCT in the rear rank, I thought they can only
fight in one rank?




Original Message -----
From: Ewan McNay
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 11:13 AM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Re: Crazy Talk




Wanax Andron wrote:

> --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Ewan McNay <ewan.mcnay@y...>
> wrote:
>
>>[[Incidentally, and in the 'dubious loophole' category, how about
>>this idea that I reluctantly decided was too cheezy to spring in
>>a tournament: List rules for Scots Common note that 'Lowland
>>spearmen always fight two full ranks in hth.' No exceptions.
>>Now, in the late period one is permitted to upgrade half of those
>>LTS to 2HCT. As list rules override general rules, one would now
>>indeed be able to run front--rank 2HCT, rear rank LTS, and fight
>>all figs. (Although the -2 for 'facing' LTS would not be taken,
>>based on the newly defined 'facing')]]
>
>
> Don't you mean -2 facing steady LTS and -1 facing 2HCT for a total
> of -3? :)

No - b/c the LTS would not be in contact, see the new definition
of 'facing'. That was my point .

Actually, of course, one is better fighting the LTS in front and
the full rank of 2HCT behind. Then you're not even shieldless
second bound. Duh.




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[John Murphy]

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Allan Lougheed"
<redcoat24@c...> wrote:
> What good would it be having 2HCT in the rear rank, I thought they
can only fight in one rank?

If the rules quoted in this thread are accurate then the answer is
buried in the following. The Scots Common list rule
permitting 'Lowland spearmen always fight two full ranks in hth.' No
exceptions.

Won't work with your dismounted Han but for Scots Common...

If you upgrade only the rear rank to 2HCT then both ranks still fight
(1 full rank LTS + 1 full rank 2HCT), and you are shielded and your
enemy is -2 for the LTS.

That does indeed sound pretty powerful. Almost like a pike block but
much cheaper, shielded, recoils instead of being disordered and
_always_ gets the HtH benefit that pikes need their 3-4 ranks for.
Guess the down part is still "only" 8 figs per 1E front.

An interesting discussion. Man, how much work pouring through the
list books did it take you guys to come up with this one! I wonder
how long it will take before Scott Holder jumps in and says "now wait
just a minute here folks".

On the other hand is this one of those things where you deserve a
bonus like this for putting up with the rest of the army?

> >>a tournament: List rules for Scots Common note that 'Lowland
> >>spearmen always fight two full ranks in hth.' No exceptions.
> >>Now, in the late period one is permitted to upgrade half of
those
> >>LTS to 2HCT. As list rules override general rules, one would
now
> >>indeed be able to run front--rank 2HCT, rear rank LTS, and
fight
> >>all figs. (Although the -2 for 'facing' LTS would not be

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 5/5/2004 17:42:30 Central Daylight Time,
jjmurphy@... writes:
I wonder
how long it will take before Scott Holder jumps in and says "now wait
just a minute here folks".>>

Allow me. That rule is meant for the LTS only. Of course. :)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Ewan McNay]

On Wed, 5 May 2004, Allan Lougheed wrote:
> Ewan, you wrote;
>
> ----- Actually, of course, one is better fighting the LTS in front and
> the full rank of 2HCT behind. Then you're not even shieldless
> second bound. Duh.-----
>
> What good would it be having 2HCT in the rear rank, I thought they can only
fight in one rank?

normally you'd be correct 9and the LTS would not fight from a 2nd ran
behind 2HCT, either). But, the 'always fight two ranks' list rule
overrides this.

That's why it's so sleazy ;-P

>
>
>
>
> Original Message -----
> From: Ewan McNay
> To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 11:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Re: Crazy Talk
>
>
>
>
> Wanax Andron wrote:
>
> > --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Ewan McNay <ewan.mcnay@y...>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>[[Incidentally, and in the 'dubious loophole' category, how about
> >>this idea that I reluctantly decided was too cheezy to spring in
> >>a tournament: List rules for Scots Common note that 'Lowland
> >>spearmen always fight two full ranks in hth.' No exceptions.
> >>Now, in the late period one is permitted to upgrade half of those
> >>LTS to 2HCT. As list rules override general rules, one would now
> >>indeed be able to run front--rank 2HCT, rear rank LTS, and fight
> >>all figs. (Although the -2 for 'facing' LTS would not be taken,
> >>based on the newly defined 'facing')]]
> >
> >
> > Don't you mean -2 facing steady LTS and -1 facing 2HCT for a total
> > of -3?
>
> No - b/c the LTS would not be in contact, see the new definition
> of 'facing'. That was my point .
>
> Actually, of course, one is better fighting the LTS in front and
> the full rank of 2HCT behind. Then you're not even shieldless
> second bound. Duh.
>
>
>
>
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OK, but I thought 2HCT can only fight in one rank, am I wrong? If I am that
changes a great deal about the way I fight.


----- Original Message -----
From: J. Murphy
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 6:39 PM
Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: Crazy Talk


--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Allan Lougheed"
<redcoat24@c...> wrote:
> What good would it be having 2HCT in the rear rank, I thought they
can only fight in one rank?

If the rules quoted in this thread are accurate then the answer is
buried in the following. The Scots Common list rule
permitting 'Lowland spearmen always fight two full ranks in hth.' No
exceptions.

Won't work with your dismounted Han but for Scots Common...

If you upgrade only the rear rank to 2HCT then both ranks still fight
(1 full rank LTS + 1 full rank 2HCT), and you are shielded and your
enemy is -2 for the LTS.

That does indeed sound pretty powerful. Almost like a pike block but
much cheaper, shielded, recoils instead of being disordered and
_always_ gets the HtH benefit that pikes need their 3-4 ranks for.
Guess the down part is still "only" 8 figs per 1E front.

An interesting discussion. Man, how much work pouring through the
list books did it take you guys to come up with this one! I wonder
how long it will take before Scott Holder jumps in and says "now wait
just a minute here folks".

On the other hand is this one of those things where you deserve a
bonus like this for putting up with the rest of the army?

> >>a tournament: List rules for Scots Common note that 'Lowland
> >>spearmen always fight two full ranks in hth.' No exceptions.
> >>Now, in the late period one is permitted to upgrade half of
those
> >>LTS to 2HCT. As list rules override general rules, one would
now
> >>indeed be able to run front--rank 2HCT, rear rank LTS, and
fight
> >>all figs. (Although the -2 for 'facing' LTS would not be



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Ewan McNay]

Allan, I don't think you're seeing what is being said.

**IN THE ABSENCE OF A SPECIAL LIST RULE** you are correct - 2HCT is 1 rank
only.

As it happens, many medieval armies have a list rule that gives 1.5 ranks
of 2HCT in some circumstances.

The Scots have a wider list rule, quoted below (and earlier) that gives
the spearmen two full ranks under all circumstances, and makes no
statement about having to be armed with e.g. LTS to receive this bonus.
Hence the discussion (and the cheese).

I think, alas, that I expect Scott to errata this out of business. I
still have pangs about not having waited to spring it in a tourney. But
there are (a few) limits to even my list slime...


On Wed, 5 May 2004,
Allan Lougheed wrote:

> OK, but I thought 2HCT can only fight in one rank, am I wrong? If I am that
changes a great deal about the way I fight.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: J. Murphy
> To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 6:39 PM
> Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: Crazy Talk
>
>
> --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Allan Lougheed"
> <redcoat24@c...> wrote:
> > What good would it be having 2HCT in the rear rank, I thought they
> can only fight in one rank?
>
> If the rules quoted in this thread are accurate then the answer is
> buried in the following. The Scots Common list rule
> permitting 'Lowland spearmen always fight two full ranks in hth.' No
> exceptions.
>
> Won't work with your dismounted Han but for Scots Common...
>
> If you upgrade only the rear rank to 2HCT then both ranks still fight
> (1 full rank LTS + 1 full rank 2HCT), and you are shielded and your
> enemy is -2 for the LTS.
>
> That does indeed sound pretty powerful. Almost like a pike block but
> much cheaper, shielded, recoils instead of being disordered and
> _always_ gets the HtH benefit that pikes need their 3-4 ranks for.
> Guess the down part is still "only" 8 figs per 1E front.
>
> An interesting discussion. Man, how much work pouring through the
> list books did it take you guys to come up with this one! I wonder
> how long it will take before Scott Holder jumps in and says "now wait
> just a minute here folks".
>
> On the other hand is this one of those things where you deserve a
> bonus like this for putting up with the rest of the army?
>
> > >>a tournament: List rules for Scots Common note that 'Lowland
> > >>spearmen always fight two full ranks in hth.' No exceptions.
> > >>Now, in the late period one is permitted to upgrade half of
> those
> > >>LTS to 2HCT. As list rules override general rules, one would
> now
> > >>indeed be able to run front--rank 2HCT, rear rank LTS, and
> fight
> > >>all figs. (Although the -2 for 'facing' LTS would not be
>
>
>
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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>
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