Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

this installment is entitled "Roman LMI, in the open Die"
Here is my list:

CNC +5 Irr A HC L/sh
5 x 2E IrrA/B HC L/sh
4E IrrC LC J/sh
3 x 6E IrrC/D HI/MI J/sh
6E IrrC LHI J/sh
6E IrrC LI SS
6E IrrC LI B
1170pt total

Jamie White and Steve Rawls both brought identical anti-Derek Downs
armies. LIR with RgB LMI D/J/sh and a few HC, LC, and clibaniforii
which I'm not sure were EHC or not. Anyway, I drew Jamie in round
two as we were both in the winner's bracket (he whipped a beginner
named Josh with Later otts). Again, the random table assignment put
us on the clear open table, and this is good for me I have not
desire to put Normans (HC and close order foot) on a table full of
brush against LMI Romans, but Jamie doesn't seem to mind the open.

His army as I remember:
CNC as HC J/sh w/2E
Sub as HC J/sh w/2E
2x 2E reg A LC J/sh
2x 2E reg? HC clibaniforii with L/B/sh
6x 4E RgB LMI J/D/sh
There may have been more, but I don't remember exactly

Jamie set up with his mounted on his left, LMI in the middle and a
single 2E LC unit on his right. I set up from right to left: LC, LI
SS, 5x 2E HC, HI unit, LHI, HI, HI, LI B. CNC stayed behind the
center HI units to threaten the gap between them. Jamie moved first
and to my surprise he turned everything except his far right LC to
his left to set up facing my HC with his LMI and my LC/LI with his
mounted. It was clear from bound 1 that his plan was to sacrifice
his LMI while his mounted blew my lights off the right flank, then
turn his mounted upon the rear of my HC. It was a bloody plan that
would have worked well but for one factor: Dice! I looked at Jamie
and said "you like this matchup?" to which he responded "yes, it
looks about right". First Jamie sent a 2E LC unit up to face my LI
SS as his clibaniforoi to face my LC. As the LI shot the LC into
exahaustion the LC and clib shot; the LC rallied back for taking
massive missile damage and one unit of clib were disordered. His
plan was already beginning to unravel when I sounded the trumpet of
Norman boldness and pointed at his LMI. Without further
contemplation, in bound two I did what the Normans like to
do....CHARGE!I sent my entire HC line into the face of his LMI from
just outside of D range. He shot two units disordered coming in, but
I knew that impacting 5 units of HC at once had to kill something.
One LMI shook, but three others routed on contact, which routed the
shaken unit. The secret was IrrA rolling up. All but one Norman
kniggits rolled up. The HC took some damage, but his entire center
left was now routing. He turned all of his mounted, including his
CNC and starte towards the flanks of my HC. However, as my line was
free of worries, I began prompting HI to march towards the gaping 2
foot gap in his line.

On the my far left my LI had shot four times into his LC causing it
to become exhausted and run off the table. Center left, my LHI were
charging one 16 man Roman LMI unit in skirmish to no avail. Two HI
units were by bound 8 marching towards the gap, his HC were slamming
into the flanks of my outer most HC to keep them from pursuing his
broken infantry. He managed to kill the far right HC, but none of my
other units cared. In bound 10 my CNC and one tired HC unit had
reformed and moved into the gap. Standing in a jumble on the right
side of the gap were one exhausted LC unit, one subgeneral fighting
my HC, and one clibaniforoi unit. Into this mess, I charged both
units; the LC exploded on contant, the clib rolled short, and my CNC
caught them. The clib routed, and the subgeneral shook. Game over.
Final score 5-2 Normans. I only remember loosing one 2E HC unit at
a cost of 81pt, but he got a 2. Maybe I lost my LI SS unit, but I
can't really remember.

Anyway, my one question to Jamie after the game was "so why were you
happy with your setup of LMI vs HC." He said that usually if they
pass the waver, HC are not that much of a problem for his LMI.... But
not only had he never played against Normans, he didn't know they
could be IrrA. And, he'd never seen anyone roll up that many times in
one bound! Yes, folks, 5@more table and 60 casualties go a long way
towards victory :)

Next installment: Steep rocky wooded hill of sloth and the valley of
stupidity.

boyd

[joncleaves]

Hmmm.

HC, L charge LMI, J, D, Sh. The LMI pass their waver let's say, which as B's
with no apparent cause of unease isn't a stretch.

The 12 D shoot the HC 12@2 (4, -2 for contact). That's 24 which is 4 per which
is disordered and -4 to the fight from support shooting CPF. The HC are now -5.
They attack 5@7 -5 = 5@2. The Romans are 6@3 which does 15. If the HC roll
down, they BREAK. If they roll even, they lose. If they roll up, the HC win,
but can't roll up enough to break the Romans since +6 makes them 5@8 which isn't
3CPF to the Romans.

This tells me that either Jamie's romans took more than one HC per LMI unit, OR
he rolled down on all his support shooting OR you guys forgot the - for support
shooting CPF....AND Boyd rolled up more than +1 with all but one of the HC.

Bottom line is, D armed LMI that are B morale are not terrible against even Irr
A HC and on even dice, beat them and if you don't roll down on support shooting,
CAN'T be broken by one HC. So let's not be too hard on Jamie.

[Patrick Byrne]

> From: JonCleaves@...
> Reply-To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 11:05:24 -0400
> To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Derekcon report 2-3 (longish)
>
> Hmmm.
>
> HC, L charge LMI, J, D, Sh. The LMI pass their waver let's say, which as B's
> with no apparent cause of unease isn't a stretch.
>
> The 12 D shoot the HC 12@2 (4, -2 for contact). That's 24 which is 4 per
> which is disordered and -4 to the fight from support shooting CPF. The HC are
> now -5. They attack 5@7 -5 = 5@2. The Romans are 6@3 which does 15. If the
> HC roll down, they BREAK. If they roll even, they lose. If they roll up, the
> HC win, but can't roll up enough to break the Romans since +6 makes them 5@8
> which isn't 3CPF to the Romans.
>

Doesn't the HC L get shot 12@3 (4, +1 Shieldless, -2 for contact)? Cav only
count sheilded to HTH weapons right? Doing 5 CPF, Disordering. Then
hitting 5@7 -6 = 5@1.
Also, the Romans would have to roll up one to get 3CPF (18 casualties) and
twice as many to do the breaking.
-PB

[joncleaves]

<< Doesn't the HC L get shot 12@3 (4, +1 Shieldless, -2 for contact)? Cav only
> count sheilded to HTH weapons right? >>

Um, HC, L, Sh counts shields when shot. Don't know where you are getting that
cav shields only in hth thing.

But you are right about the romans having to roll up to do 3 CPF and break...

[Chris Bump]

In a message dated Tue, 25 Jun 2002 12:37:01 PM Eastern Standard Time,
cuan@... writes:

> Doesn't the HC L get shot 12@3 (4, +1 Shieldless, -2 for contact)? Cav only
> count sheilded to HTH weapons right? Doing 5 CPF, Disordering. Then
> hitting 5@7 -6 = 5@1.
> Also, the Romans would have to roll up one to get 3CPF (18
> casualties) and
> twice as many to do the breaking.
> -PB


Pat,
Nope on all counts. The Norman HC are not shieldless and do not have missles
and so will not be shieldless in the example.
Consequently your numbers are off.

If I remember correctly, my lack of play these last months is situtaion
dependent, The Romans do not have to roll up, beause they get to combine support
shooting and hth for calculation of casualties to determine if the HC break.
For example if the Romans do 3 cpf with support shooting (easy with a 12@2) and
then both sides roll way down in hth so that the romans only put out 6
casualties and the Normans only put out 3 casualties for example the Normans
would break because they took 3cpf and twice as many hth casualties, even if
only 1 of those cpf were from hth. you can't do it with this example because
the worst the romans can do is a 6/0, but they wouldn't have to create any cpf
in hth and they could still break the normans if the hth they put out was twice
what the normans put out (assuming that they did at least 3 cpf in support
shooting).
Chris

[joncleaves]

Chris is correct. The romans would have to roll up to break the HC from hth
alone, but would not 'need' to unless something like a converted charge
prevented support shooting altogether unless they rolled down horribly in both
hth and support.

> This tells me that either Jamie's romans took more than one HC per
LMI unit,

Absolutely. From left to right. LMI shook and was hit by 1 HC, next
LMI hit by 2 HC one disordered, next LMI hit by 2 HC and one
disordered.

OR he rolled down on all his support shooting

Rolled down on 2.

OR you guys forgot the - for support shooting CPF....AND Boyd rolled
up more than +1 with all but one of the HC.

No, Jamie is a good player. I did roll up, on the more table for
two. Only one HC rolled even, no downs. One HC was savaged and took
something like 8 CPF on the way in, did nothing, recoiled from
combat, retired, and sat for 2 bounds to reorder; joined the CNC as a
reserve, and charged the exhausted LC in the last turn while the CNC
hit the clib. It was a simple case of me rolling out of a trap. As
my descriptive analysis at the time put it. My HC were riding down
his LMI and shooting birds at the Roman HC to either flank rolling up
the as though it were natural :)

>
> Bottom line is, D armed LMI that are B morale are not terrible
against even Irr A HC and on even dice, beat them and if you don't
roll down on support shooting, CAN'T be broken by one HC. So let's
not be too hard on Jamie.

Absolutely! His tactic would have worked if it were not for the Boyd
factor I will, in any given game roll up massively for about 2
bounds. then it is all down hill from there. This is evendinced in
the fact that it took me 4 bounds of hacking on the routers to
destroy them.

[joncleaves]

<<Absolutely. From left to right. LMI shook and was hit by 1 HC, next
LMI hit by 2 HC one disordered, next LMI hit by 2 HC and one
disordered.

OR he rolled down on all his support shooting

Rolled down on 2.>>

Well, that explains everything.

Boyd, are you attending Hcon and was this in 25mm?

Jon

> Well, that explains everything.

Hey, they were Normans. Enemy rolling down is
critical part of the plan :)

>
> Boyd, are you attending Hcon and was this in 25mm?

I was going to, but I just received my orders
yesterday to journey to Bnoc Ph2 in July. :(

Yes 25mm is all I can play these days. Can't see 15mm
lumps any more.

boyd

=====
Wake up and smell the Assyrians

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

I was willing to play the odds with my RB auxilia in the open againt the IA
HC L Sh because of the following:

A. All three LMI facing the charge were RB and steady, so 1s to shake. Of
course, the 1 showed up on the unit that was facing one knight unit and thus
the best chance of breaking a knight unit on the way went away.

B. I hadn't played in a while, and thought they were IB knights in the
Norman list at first. Before the knights charged Boyd corrected me but I
still think of IA troops as a target, not as something to fear.

C. I rolled evens and +1 on shooting and melee but Boyd rolled +2 (+4), -2,
+4 (+6) even, +2 (+4).

My thinking was the likely outcome was the Auxilia facing the single knight
would break the knight and be free to move the next bound to start smashing
knight units. The other two units I expected to get recoiled but throw off
one of the two knights each. Instead, the Auxilia facing the single knight
shook when receiving the charge and routed when the knight unit rolled up.
The Auxilia on the other end of the line routed due to the high casualties,
5@more, and 5@5. The center unit locked up by throwing off one knight unit
and not losing too badly to the second knight unit but then failed both
waivers and was swept away too.

I snuck up to two points because I think I remember a general getting to see
a knight unit destoyed by slow Roman cav rolling a 1.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wanax Andron" <vercengetorix@...>
To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 8:01 AM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Re: Derekcon report 2-3 (longish)


>
> > Well, that explains everything.
>
> Hey, they were Normans. Enemy rolling down is
> critical part of the plan
>
> >
> > Boyd, are you attending Hcon and was this in 25mm?
>
> I was going to, but I just received my orders
> yesterday to journey to Bnoc Ph2 in July.
>
> Yes 25mm is all I can play these days. Can't see 15mm
> lumps any more.
>
> boyd
>
> =====
> Wake up and smell the Assyrians
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
> http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> WarriorRules-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

--- In WarriorRules@y..., "Jamie White" <jpwhite@n...> wrote:
> I was willing to play the odds with my RB auxilia in the open
againt the IA
> HC L Sh because of the following:

You have to admit, Jamie, that when I pushed all 5 units forward it
looked very scary.


>
> A. All three LMI facing the charge were RB and steady, so 1s to
shake. Of
> course, the 1 showed up on the unit that was facing one knight unit
and thus
> the best chance of breaking a knight unit on the way went away.
>
> B. I hadn't played in a while, and thought they were IB knights in
the
> Norman list at first. Before the knights charged Boyd corrected me
but I
> still think of IA troops as a target, not as something to fear.
>
> C. I rolled evens and +1 on shooting and melee but Boyd rolled +2
(+4), -2,
> +4 (+6) even, +2 (+4).

The third HC unit actually had to recoil with some 8 cpf. It
reformed later and joined the CNC for adventures against your counter
attacking mounted huddle. That one scared me.

>
> My thinking was the likely outcome was the Auxilia facing the
single knight
> would break the knight and be free to move the next bound to start
smashing
> knight units. The other two units I expected to get recoiled but
throw off
> one of the two knights each. Instead, the Auxilia facing the
single knight
> shook when receiving the charge and routed when the knight unit
rolled up.
> The Auxilia on the other end of the line routed due to the high
casualties,
> 5@more, and 5@5. The center unit locked up by throwing off one
knight unit
> and not losing too badly to the second knight unit but then failed
both
> waivers and was swept away too.

Conversely when I released the HC in my third game, they all took
massive support cpf, rolled down on impact, and basically died to a
man.

>
> I snuck up to two points because I think I remember a general
getting to see
> a knight unit destoyed by slow Roman cav rolling a 1.

Yes you killed the far right HC unit, but I don't remember anybody
else dieing. The game only lasted an hour.

I'll say this, Jamie is a true gaming gentleman. His plan was far
better than mine, but the dice were against him. I only wish that
more gamers were as relaxed and fun to play as Jamie.

I'll add that one of the main reasons I've returned to
7th....err...Warrior is that all the anal-retintive hyper competitive
gamers have moved over to WAB and DBM. The core of players, like
Jamie White, still in Warrior are those for whom victory on the table
is not directly related to self-esteem. My hope is that this trend
continues. In the black days of the early 1990s, those micrometer
bearing, umpire harrassing, element figgiting, whiners really took
alot out of the game. Now that they have passed to 15mm DBM, Warrior
is again the relaxing alternative :)

boyd

[Dave Smith]

"vercengetorix" wrote:

I'll add that one of the main reasons I've returned to
7th....err...Warrior is that all the anal-retintive hyper competitive
gamers have moved over to WAB and DBM.


***Hmmm...DBM, maybe, but I have run several WAB tourneys and had
absolutely none of the characteristics that you refer to. WAB
players for the most part are the antithesis of the anal competitive
gamer.

Dave

[joncleaves]

<<I'll add that one of the main reasons I've returned to
7th....err...Warrior is that all the anal-retintive hyper competitive
gamers have moved over to WAB and DBM. >>

I don't know about retaining one's anus, but I am hyper competitive and I play
Warrior....

> ***Hmmm...DBM, maybe, but I have run several WAB tourneys and had
> absolutely none of the characteristics that you refer to. WAB
> players for the most part are the antithesis of the anal
competitive
> gamer.
> Dave

Truth me known, I've never even seen a WAB. However, I was
extrapolating from the many W40K battles I've seen. Those guys are
scary geeks :)

Anyway, if it doesn't apply to WAB, then I retract my statement and
focus mainly upon DBM gamers.

boyd

[joncleaves]

Ok, this thread is starting to enter the realm of ad hominem attack. please
move along, citizens...