Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Jake Kovel]

In a message dated 1/14/04 11:05:37 AM, mark@... writes:

First, support shooting. The Scots actually get 12@1 for 18, not 9@1 (which
is actually 13 not 14).

> Hand to hand: The Scots As do 9@1 (other vs. el) +2 (JLS) +3 (up 1 = up 3)
> = 6.
> 9@6 = 45. The Scots Cs do 2 less than this for 5@4 = 15. The total is 60
> hand to
> hand, and 74 total, for a crucial 3 CPF on the elephants. The elephants are
> now
> at 9 fatigue (1 in prep, 2 for the charge, 3 doubled to 6 in hand to hand).
>
One must not forget that foot do get the impetuous bonus against mounted.
That would make the A class troops 9@8, which is 67. It would also make the C
class troops 5@6, which is 25. Total inflicted, including missile fire, is
110. This puts the elephants at 13 CPF, (1 in prep, 2 for the charge, 5 CPF
x2 for having foot on the base) and disordered. The elephants will also be
recoiling.

On an even die roll the result is 14@5 or 56 casualties, 74 with support.
The elephants are still disordered and recoiling.

> The elephants do 15@3=38, the crew do 3@2 (w/o JLS) = 6, and 3@3 = 8
> (w/JLS),
> for a total of 52. So 52 hand to hand, and 70 total, for just shy of 3 CPF.
> The
> Scots are now at 6 fatigue (1 for prep, 1 for impetuous charge, 2 in hand to
> hand doubled).
>
>
This looks good.

In the second round the foot are 18@3 (other v. elephants +1, JLS +2,
following up +1, tired -1, overlap (maybe 20 if they expand on one side)). The
elephants are 15@-1 (EL v. LMI +2, disordered-2, tired-1)
The crew are 9@1 (crew v. LMI +2, tired-1) and 3@2 (crew v. LMI +2, JLS +1,
tired-1)

On an even roll the Scots do 45 and the elephants do 30 and are recoiled
again. They die on bound 3.

So let's look at your assumptions again.

But let's look at the assumptions at work here:
- the Scots can put 4 elements frontage on 3 elements frontage of elephants;
GRANTED
- the Scots roll up in hand to hand NOT REQUIRED
- the elephants do not roll up on support shooting GRANTED (but the same
can be said of the LMI)
- the elephants do not roll up in hand to hand GRANTED (but the same can be
said of the LMI)
The latter two are crucial, because they'll put the Scots over 3 CPF,
rendering
them disordered. If disordered, the Scots can easily win on the first bound
but
lose and become exhausted themselves on the second bound. In fact, if the
elephants roll up at contact, even if the Scots roll up 1, the elephants flat
out win and will certainly pummel the Scots into exhaustion on bound 2.

On an even roll the elephants lose. If both roll up 1 the elephants lose
round one and will likely exhaust in round 2 even if they win. If both sides
roll up 2 the elephants are destroyed on the spot.
If both sides roll down the better morale of the elephants will save them and
lead to victory.

The foot unit costs 111 points and the elephants cost 179. All things being
equal, I'll take the foot every time.

Of course, this isolates the two units and we know that will never happen.
:)

Jacob Kovel
Go Champa!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Mark Stone]

Quoting "WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com" <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>:

> ***Kelly writes*** Wait a minute, the Highlanders that I suggested that Boyd
> use are 0-1/2 Irg A LMI JLS,B,Sh. These guys match up great against
> elephants. First they shoot at 240 paces, then 120 paces, then in the support
> shot of the impetuous charge! I like the chances of javelins in the hands of
> impetous LMI with the added bonus of Irg"A's" in the front rank which more
> often than not means that the elephants will move to a safer location rather
> than deal with people that will pin cushion them then skewer them for lunch!
>

This view of the matchup between irreg loose order foot and elephants is a
common misconception. The main thing that has changed in recent years is the
predominance of elephants with LI mounted on the base, which really changes the
equation a lot. Over the last 5 years or so the most common armies deploying
elephants that I see at Cold Wars or Historicon are:
- Sultanate of Delhi
- Burmese
- Khmer (with Burmese contingent)
- Seleucid
All can get LI on the base, so plan accordingly.

For your Highlanders the worst case scenario would probably be Sultanate of
Delhi, so let's have a look. Of course a large caveat here: Warrior is
fundamentally a game of combined arms, and straight up unit vs. unit
comparisons seldom tell the whole story. Successful combined arms tactics are
more a question of generalship than army lists, however, so I'll do a straight
up comparison here in an effort to display the army list flaws of the Scots.

Let's give the Scots some clear numerical superiority here, 'cause they're gonna
need it. Here's the matchup:

Sultanate: 3 model unit of Irr B El, crew of 3 w/bow and driver w/JLS. Unit
includes a general (since they're actually cheaper that way).
Scots: 24 figure unit of Irr A/C LMI JLS,B,Sh

Assume both march to 240p, and subsequently interact in isolation from other
units.

Bound 1: The Scots approach to 120p, and get off a full bow shot at long range.
In prep they do 12@3=30, for a wopping 1 CPF (the elephants count as a 21 figure
unit). Even if they roll up 1, 36 is still just 1 CPF. For the privelege of
dealing out this 1 CPF they receive 9@5 (2 crew with bow, 1 crew with bow
counting double, 2 LI with bow on the base = 6 firing per elephant, long range
is half). 9@5=36, for 1 CPF. Up 1 still is just 1 CPF.

Charges: the elephants declare a charge, and the Scots declare an impetuous
charge. We'll assume the elephants don't roll down (they'd have to roll down 3
to count as down 1), and we'll even assume the Scots roll up 1 (roughly a 40%
chance).

Support shooting: The Scots do 9@1 = 14. The elephants do 18@0=18. Neither side
does a CPF, though the elephants could do 1 if they roll up 1.

Hand to hand: The Scots As do 9@1 (other vs. el) +2 (JLS) +3 (up 1 = up 3) = 6.
9@6 = 45. The Scots Cs do 2 less than this for 5@4 = 15. The total is 60 hand to
hand, and 74 total, for a crucial 3 CPF on the elephants. The elephants are now
at 9 fatigue (1 in prep, 2 for the charge, 3 doubled to 6 in hand to hand).

The elephants do 15@3=38, the crew do 3@2 (w/o JLS) = 6, and 3@3 = 8 (w/JLS),
for a total of 52. So 52 hand to hand, and 70 total, for just shy of 3 CPF. The
Scots are now at 6 fatigue (1 for prep, 1 for impetuous charge, 2 in hand to
hand doubled).

Result: the Scots win, push back the elephants, and follow up. In Bound 2 the
Scots will almost certainly exhaust the elephants, and rally at around 10
fatigue themselves.

Sounds pretty good, right?

But let's look at the assumptions at work here:
- the Scots can put 4 elements frontage on 3 elements frontage of elephants;
- the Scots roll up in hand to hand
- the elephants do not roll up on support shooting
- the elephants do not roll up in hand to hand
The latter two are crucial, because they'll put the Scots over 3 CPF, rendering
them disordered. If disordered, the Scots can easily win on the first bound but
lose and become exhausted themselves on the second bound. In fact, if the
elephants roll up at contact, even if the Scots roll up 1, the elephants flat
out win and will certainly pummel the Scots into exhaustion on bound 2.

Bottom line: If I'm playing the elephants, I'll take those odds all day long.

What it takes to change the balance of power here is one of two things:
(1) Better shooting. That means going with 4 to a stand bowmen, and hence an
army of regulars, where you'll try to defeat the elephants purely with shooting
rather than hand to hand combat.
(2) Better hand to hand factors against the elephants. That means either HTW +
JLS ("Moogs") or 2HCW + JLS. If the latter, then you really can't afford to be
LMI since you'll count shieldess on bound 2. In other words, the best troop type
for fighting elephants of the Scots/Irish/Norse flavor is Irr B LHI 2HCW,JLS,Sh.


-Mark Stone

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 1/14/2004 12:49:39 PM Eastern Standard Time,
mark@... writes:

> Warrior is
> fundamentally a game of combined arms, and straight up unit
> vs. unit
> comparisons seldom tell the whole story.>>


This could not possibly be over-said.

[Kelly Wilkinson]

Mark,
First of all, if I had a unit of Scot's Highlanders in the Scot's Common
Army, they would be situated in some kind of rough terrain since that's what
their main role would be as support troops. Secondly, I'm assuming we're talking
about the LMI, JLS,B,Sh guys, I would not choose to march to within 240 paces of
elephants or any unit for that matter with my bow armed troops.In a perfect
world, I would prefer to screen off elephants with my LI JLS, Sh or LI B. But if
I were forced to meet the Elephants head on, it would be foolish to march up to
the Elephants in that matter. I'd let the elephants come to me so I'd get to
prep shoot them at the end of their march and do it again when they close to
within 120 in the next bound, giving me ample time to position more archers if
necessary to halt the elepants or force a waiver test. As I said before, the
highlanders in this army are nothing but support troops and merely a side show.
If the elephants chose to charge into the brush
after these guys or merely stand and get hosed, I would consider it a happy day
indeed for the Highlanders. Especially sitting 160 paces from the edge of a
brush guaranteeing that those lovely elephants would be disordered if they chose
to make a charge. And Yes, I'd be happy to trade bow shots all day at 120 or 160
paces with an expensive unit like Irg B Elephants with 4 crew. :)


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I've never been a WRG math in my head type of guy, so I've always
defered to the chart. But as one of the game axioms I learned early
on, I always send the LMI against El. Nothing else will do. :)

Wanax


--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Eaglewars@a... wrote:
> The foot unit costs 111 points and the elephants cost 179. All
things being
> equal, I'll take the foot every time.
> Jacob Kovel

I don't think El are disordered by brush...

wanax

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, kelly wilkinson If the
elephants chose to charge into the brush
> after these guys or merely stand and get hosed, I would consider
it a happy day indeed for the Highlanders. Especially sitting 160
paces from the edge of a brush guaranteeing that those lovely
elephants would be disordered if they chose to make a charge.

Yep, I'm wrong :)


--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "spocksleftball"
<spocksleftball@y...> wrote:
> I don't think El are disordered by brush...
>
> wanax
>
> --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, kelly wilkinson If the
> elephants chose to charge into the brush
> > after these guys or merely stand and get hosed, I would consider
> it a happy day indeed for the Highlanders. Especially sitting 160
> paces from the edge of a brush guaranteeing that those lovely
> elephants would be disordered if they chose to make a charge.

[Kelly Wilkinson]

"Here, Here!"

spocksleftball <spocksleftball@...> wrote:
I've never been a WRG math in my head type of guy, so I've always
defered to the chart. But as one of the game axioms I learned early
on, I always send the LMI against El. Nothing else will do. :)

Wanax


--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Eaglewars@a... wrote:
> The foot unit costs 111 points and the elephants cost 179. All
things being
> equal, I'll take the foot every time.
> Jacob Kovel




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[Kelly Wilkinson]

When they charge they are. . . and believe me, they will if they come in to an
enemy that is hosing them to the point of being halted every turn!

kelly

spocksleftball <spocksleftball@...> wrote:
I don't think El are disordered by brush...

wanax

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, kelly wilkinson If the
elephants chose to charge into the brush
> after these guys or merely stand and get hosed, I would consider
it a happy day indeed for the Highlanders. Especially sitting 160
paces from the edge of a brush guaranteeing that those lovely
elephants would be disordered if they chose to make a charge.





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[Kelly Wilkinson]

Sorry, I replied to the other posting before reading this one! :)

spocksleftball <spocksleftball@...> wrote:Yep, I'm wrong :)


--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "spocksleftball"
<spocksleftball@y...> wrote:
> I don't think El are disordered by brush...
>
> wanax
>
> --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, kelly wilkinson If the
> elephants chose to charge into the brush
> > after these guys or merely stand and get hosed, I would consider
> it a happy day indeed for the Highlanders. Especially sitting 160
> paces from the edge of a brush guaranteeing that those lovely
> elephants would be disordered if they chose to make a charge.


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