Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Mark Stone]

Quoting "WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com" <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>:

> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 13:38:11 -0500
> From: Ewan McNay <ewan.mcnay@...>
> Subject: Elephant use
>
> "Who uses elephants and how have you used them MOST successfully?"
>
> Well, I do....
> Honestly, though, I usually treat these El as 'trundle forward
> and stomp' troops. The pike means that they give a -1 to enemy,
> and that is often the edge that they need to have the upper hand
> in combat. The fact that they cause unease is also a plus.
> Simply getting into combat is often the hardest thing, as they're
> not super-manouvreable or speedy. But then, that's true of the
> whole Seleucid army.
>
> Part of this is, indeed, a bit of a cycle - and if everyone keeps
> bringing a zillion bowmen to comps, I am going to get shot up a
> lot. But I've been running these guys for a long time now!
>

Ewan makes a lot of excellent points here, and I'd advise anyway to pay heed to
his advice; he plays Seleucids better than anyone I know of.

However, he does overlook one of the biggest issues in deciding how to run
elephants: whether or not to put LI on the base.

Some background here: not all elephant armies have this option. Ghaznavids are
an example of a very good elephant army where you can't do this. But several
important armies do have this option:
- Seleucids
- Burmese
- Khmer
- Sultanate of Delhi

Some further background: without LI on the base, elephants have a significant
vulnerability to mass bow fire. Here's the basic dynamic: elephants receiving 2
CPF from prep shooting must waver test or stand halted. Standing halted is
ususally the precursor to defeat, since either (a) more shooting will fall on
the elephants next bound, or (b) dangerous loose order foot can reach them, or
(c) elephants are unable to intervene as support troops go down in defeat.

Getting 2 CPF on elephants is fairly easy _if_ you have bow. A one elephant
model counts as 5 figures. Bow is at a 3 against elephants, so 4@3 does 10, or 2
CPF. That means that if you can do one of the following you can stop elephants:
- get LI with bow to within 80p, lined up element for element
- get 4 to a stand bowmen within 240p lined up element for element
The latter is key. At a range of 120p to 240p you can shoot elephants without
fear of getting charged, and at a range of 160p to 240p you can shoot elephants
without fear of getting shot in return.

Note that neither longbow nor crossbow gives you this capability. Longbow is
only a 2 against elephants (and only a rank and a half at close range), and
crossbow is a woeful 1. So while longbow is powerful against the current trend
of mounted armies, it is a lesser choice against elephant armies.

Putting LI on the base of your elephant models changes this whole dynamic
dramatically. There are good things and bad things that happen.

The bad:
- your elephants are guaranteed to be shooters to front, etc., with all the
negatives Ewan mentioned.
- your elephants must move in the infantry approach phase, meaning they always
go before enemy mounted, and half the time go before enemy foot
- your elephants can never go long in a pursuit, dramatically reducing their
chances of catching evading LI or loose order foot
- because your body now contains irregular foot, any CPF taken in the hand to
hand phase will be doubled.

The good:
- your elephants now count as 7 figures per model, making them much tougher to
shoot
- At 7 figures per model, your elephants are much less likely to take a
disordering 3 CPF from an impetuous charge by loose order foot
- the LI on the base can turn the elephants into powerful shooting platforms
that enemy shooters must be wary of.

At 7 figures per model, now requiring 14 casualties per model to do 2 CPF, the
shooting game changes dramatically. My LI with bow, whom I can fling in front of
elephants with relative impunity, now require overlapping frontage, not just
matching frontage, to achieve 2 CPF. This is difficult as I may not have that
much LI that I can concentrate in the right place, and my opponent may be able
to draw off some of my fire by placing other shooters directly to my front. My 4
to a stand shooters, typically LMI, must now get to close range or have overlaps
to do 2 CPF. Again, overlaps can be drawn off by other shooters. And at close
range, I'm vulnerable to shooting myself (meaning I likely have to be in
skirmish, further reducing my shooting power), and I'm risking being charged in
the open by mounted (the elephants) and thus having to take a waver test,
probably an uneasy waver test at that.

So I can no longer say "I'll just shoot up the elephants to counter them". I may
be able to shoot them up, but it is hardly a given, and requires careful
tactical planning.

Nor can I any longer assume that my impetuous JLS-armed foot (or 2HCW-armed
foot) will beat elephants. I will win at contact, but I won't normally do 3 CPF
even with an up roll, and thus I will gradually lose over time. Beating
elephants in hand to hand who have LI on the base requires that either I (a) get
them tired with shooting first, or (b) use double-armed loose order foot such as
Almughuvars (HTW,JLS) or Byzantine Varangian Guard (2HCW,JLS).

Finally, elephants with LI on the base can become potent shooting platforms. The
Burmese elephants can have 6 crew with bow (which counts as 7 figures firing)
and 2 LI, for a total of 9 figures firing out of each element's frontage. Only
the Midianite Arab camels put out denser fire than that, and the Burmese
elephants are a significant threat in hand to hand as well (unlike the camels).
Sultanate of Delhi elephants can have 3 crew with bow (1 with JLS), and LI on
the base. They put out a very respectable 6 figures of shooting per element's
frontage.

And don't forget that _all_ of that gets to support shoot in a charge. Putting
18 LMI with JLS into an imepetuous charge against 3 Sultanate elephants means
that that the LMI will take 18@0=2 in support shooting coming in. This has two
consequences. First, it means the LMI may well be down 1 in hand to hand from
support shooting, which they can ill afford. Second, and more importantly, it
all but guarantees that the combined support and hand to hand casualties from
the elephants will reach 3 CPF, disordering the LMI and thus giving the
elephants a +2 next bound for fighting disordered foot.

None of this is to say you _should_ run LI on the base. My point is only that
whether you are planning how to run elephants or how to fight elephants, this is
a major tactical facet of the elephant game to take into consideration.


-Mark Stone

[John Murphy]

One of you should also definitely attempt to contact my old NoVa friend
and infamous Persian-o-phile Craig Scott, whom I happen to be fairly
certain has a 25mm Later Ach Persian army (and Sassanids, and every
Zoroastrian army in between that has the word "Persian" in the name though
some are also 15's). To what degree those Later Ach's could be used for
Early Ach's (or maybe they are Early Ach's even) I do not know but ask him
about his figures and what he could do and if he might be able and willing
to support this effort.
Seems right down his alley and I have to imagine he would be up for
something exactly like this. Might also know some other folks who have the
figures.
I only mention this because for some reason I think he is not on the e-list.
I don't have everyone's e-mail addresses with me but Scott H or ET or any
of the NoVa crowd should be able to reach him and ask though.
-John Murphy
-jjmurphy@...

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 8:03 AM
Subject: [WarriorRules] Digest Number 1227
> Message: 15
> From: "Michael Bard" <mwbard@...>
> Subject: Re: Replaying Platea
> I was planning for it to be in 25mm for the visual impact (and I only have
> Greeks in 25mm). However, if there are only 15mm Persians, then it may
have
> to be rethought.
> Does anybody have any 25mm Persians? (getting a bit desperate here...)
If
> not, we can always do the first battle of Matinea with roughly 10,000
> hoplites a side (we can reduce the figure ratio to put more hoplites on
the
> field if necessary).
> From: "Holder, Scott" <Scott.Holder@...>
> >I have 72 hoplites. Persians are gonna be the tough part in all of this,
particularly in 25mm. I have a few generic odds and ends that could work
for some things but they don't look great and couldn't be considered even a
core of starting an army.


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Are Seleucid elephants given the option of regular foot on their base? I know
the old lists gave this as an option. So at least they wouldn't take double
fatigue in hand to hand.

Otherwise, Mark's analysis raises a number of good points.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[scott holder]

Depends on the list. Since FHE hasn't redone the Seleucid lists yet, then yeah,
something like the NASAMW list allows for reg li on the base. Can't speak for
the Huckleberry & Clarke lists or the Book of Hosts.

-----Original Message-----
From: doctormm@... [mailto:doctormm@...]
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 12:18 PM
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Digest Number 1227


Are Seleucid elephants given the option of regular foot on their base? I know
the old lists gave this as an option. So at least they wouldn't take double
fatigue in hand to hand.

Otherwise, Mark's analysis raises a number of good points.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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[Kelly Wilkinson]

What's Craigs email address?

kelly

"jjmurphy@..." <jjmurphy@...> wrote:
One of you should also definitely attempt to contact my old NoVa friend
and infamous Persian-o-phile Craig Scott, whom I happen to be fairly
certain has a 25mm Later Ach Persian army (and Sassanids, and every
Zoroastrian army in between that has the word "Persian" in the name though
some are also 15's). To what degree those Later Ach's could be used for
Early Ach's (or maybe they are Early Ach's even) I do not know but ask him
about his figures and what he could do and if he might be able and willing
to support this effort.
Seems right down his alley and I have to imagine he would be up for
something exactly like this. Might also know some other folks who have the
figures.
I only mention this because for some reason I think he is not on the e-list.
I don't have everyone's e-mail addresses with me but Scott H or ET or any
of the NoVa crowd should be able to reach him and ask though.
-John Murphy
-jjmurphy@...

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 8:03 AM
Subject: [WarriorRules] Digest Number 1227
> Message: 15
> From: "Michael Bard" <mwbard@...>
> Subject: Re: Replaying Platea
> I was planning for it to be in 25mm for the visual impact (and I only have
> Greeks in 25mm). However, if there are only 15mm Persians, then it may
have
> to be rethought.
> Does anybody have any 25mm Persians? (getting a bit desperate here...)
If
> not, we can always do the first battle of Matinea with roughly 10,000
> hoplites a side (we can reduce the figure ratio to put more hoplites on
the
> field if necessary).
> From: "Holder, Scott" <Scott.Holder@...>
> >I have 72 hoplites. Persians are gonna be the tough part in all of this,
particularly in 25mm. I have a few generic odds and ends that could work
for some things but they don't look great and couldn't be considered even a
core of starting an army.


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Mike Bard]

Could you try contacting him? I think that being contacted by someone he
knows rather than a complete stranger would be more effective.

Michael Bard
That Greek Hoplite Guy


> One of you should also definitely attempt to contact my old NoVa friend
> and infamous Persian-o-phile Craig Scott, whom I happen to be fairly
> certain has a 25mm Later Ach Persian army (

> I don't have everyone's e-mail addresses with me but Scott H or ET or any
> of the NoVa crowd should be able to reach him and ask though.
> -John Murphy
> -jjmurphy@...

[Kelly Wilkinson]

If you read about the march on Beth Zacharia, you will find that the Seleucids
used all sorts of troops as escorts for their elephants including cavalry, Roman
style infantry and troops referred to as phalanx according to Bar-Kochva's
commentary on the march on Beth Zacharia in his book the Seleucid Army. He notes
that in first Macc. that each elephant had 1,000 infantry and 500 cavalry. Very
interesting reading for those interested in the period.

kelly wilkinson

doctormm@... wrote:
Are Seleucid elephants given the option of regular foot on their base? I know
the old lists gave this as an option. So at least they wouldn't take double
fatigue in hand to hand.

Otherwise, Mark's analysis raises a number of good points.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Mark Stone]

Quoting "WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com" <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>:

> Message: 12
> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 19:23:48 -0800
> From: "Frank Gilson" <franktrevorgilson@...>
> Subject: Army Classifications
>
> Rather than thinking about specific army lists, and what to play. I decided
> to try to break some qualities about armies off and then rate a few lists by
> those qualities.

OK, I'll bite. Here's my assessment of a few armies I'm very familiar with:

>
> What I came up with:
> Shock Capability : Can this army hit hard with a relatively unavoidable
> attack?

1. Later Paleologan Byzantine: your default shock troops are EHK, you can get
some Irr A Georgians, and you have an option of either a French Ally with Irr A
SHK or a Catalan Ally with "Moogs". Certainly no deficiencies here. Rating: good

2. Medieval Spanish: SHK and "Moogs". Excellent shock troops. Rating: good

3. Nikophoran Byzantine: SHC and Varangians. Neither is outstanding by
themselves, but they work well together. And this is one of the few lists on
which the Viking types can be LHI 2HCW,JLS,Sh. That's a powerful combo. Besides
these troop types, there are plenty of servicable lance-armed cav on the list.
Rating: good

> Skirmish Capability : Basically, does the army get decent lights?

1. LP Byz: top notch light infantry - shielded, regular, with bow. Decent light
cav with JLS,B,Sh (or Georgians with just bow), but none can be regular. Not
perfect, but certainly very good. Rating: good

2. Med Span: skirmishers are one of the few mediocre areas in the army. The LI
is decent but not outstanding, and the LC is both mediocre (no bow) and
required. Rating: average

3. Nik Byz: Wow. Just about any combination of weapon types you'd want for LI,
all regular, and with shields. An abundance of good LC. Rating: good

> Missile Fire : Are concentrated missile troops on the list?

1. LP Byz: I play this list with 80 figures of bow-armed LMI on 1600 points, and
consider it one of the premier dense-shooting armies available now. Rating: good

2. Med Span: up to 48 longbowmen, which is about as many as you'd want on this
list. Rating: good

3. Nik Byz: very similar to LP Byz, with lots of good LMI archers. In addition
you can give your kontatoroi darts for some added missile punch. Rating: good

> Battle Line : Can the army get efficient, usually close order, foot?

1. LP Byz: No. You can get some D class LTS troops, but you wouldn't want to.
The skirmishers are so good, though, that it hardly matters. This army is what I
call "dry lightening": nothing but air and thunder. Rating: poor

2. Med Span: Not really. There are some Irr C LTS you can get, and on 2000
points when you start running out of other things to buy they can serve a
purpose. On 1600 points you have to rely on the longbowmen as line troops, which
is a bit dicy. Rating: poor

3. Nik Byz: Very strong line troops in the kontatoroi. They can be LTS,D,Sh, and
in addition a fraction can have pike or HTW. Definitely one of the strengths of
this army. Oh, and you can also get some Russ: close order LTS,JLS,Sh. Rating:
good

> Terrain Operations : Can the army deal with bad terrain situations?

1. LP Byz: Adequate but not outstanding. Your rough terrain troops are
missile-armed LI, and LMI with JLS,B,Sh. It would be better if there were some
LHI. If this is a major concern, then take the Catalan ally, and the "Moogs"
should clear the woods for you. Rating: average

2. Med Span: "Moogs" and longbowmen with 2HCW. That should clear just about
anything out of bad terrain. Rating: good

3. Nik Byz: The Varangians are some of the best rough terrain troops in the
game. Rating: good

>
> Then there would be some "special abilities" like temporary fortifications,
> obstacles, gimmicks.

1. LP Byz: no real gimmicks here.

2. Med Span: no real gimmicks here.

3. The kontatoroi are kind of a gimmick, since your opponent won't know which
configuration you've got, and the capabilities are quite different. Also, I
believe (don't have the list in front of me) you can get some fire syphoneers if
you're into that sort of thing.

Between these, the Later Paleologan Byzantines have better shooters, the
Spanish have better shock troops and woods troops, and the Nikophorans have the
best line troops. I favor shooters, and have no real idea how to use close order
foot, so my preference is the Later Paleologan Byzantines. If you want to win
with pure shock power, and enough quality support troops to deliver it in the
right place at the right time, the Medieval Spanish is the way to go. Nikophoran
Byzantines can be played very similarly to Later Paleologan Byzantines, with
less effective shock troops overall but better rough terrain troops (and
probably better shock troops against elephants). Or, it can be played as a
counter-punching army where you drive the kontatoroi forward and the cav and
Varangians hang back waiting to exploit the opponent's response to the
kontatoroi.

Ultimately the choice comes down to a matter of playing style you're comfortable
with, and what you think you'll be up against.


-Mark Stone

First this is probably one of the best threads in years here. Now
for my worthless opinion with that Cur army First Crusader :)

<WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>:
> > What I came up with:
> > Shock Capability : Can this army hit hard with a relatively
unavoidable
> > attack?

Irregular A and B HC or HK in abundance. No LC or JLS based mounted
army will be able to withstand it. SHK, Chariots, and Elephants
cause mucho problems and massed shooters stop it cold. Also available
are LHI with 2HCW and/or JLS, which are fully capable of dealing with
terrain and elephants, but they are "C" and therefore vulnerable to
mounted and shooting. Rating Average.


> > Skirmish Capability : Basically, does the army get decent lights?

A few Regular LC J/B/sh and a bunch o'crap LI are available. This
army requires only enough LI to keep the enemy LI away from your
close order for 2 bounds, and this they can do if force marched.
Otherwise, 1st Crusader is laking in quality LI. The few other
options such as Reg LMI CB and "C" rated LI J/sh are only viable at
larger points totals. Rating Average.

> > Missile Fire : Are concentrated missile troops on the list?

While not a shooting army, the close order foot can have some
shooting from Bow ranks, there are some close order CB required, and
some bow option peasants. As noted Italian CB LMI are also
possible. However, shooting here is just a sideline. Rating Average.

> > Battle Line : Can the army get efficient, usually close order,
foot?

The strength of this army is the battleline. "C" grade HI with
JLS/sh backed by MI B/JLS are tougher than average. While not keen
to face large numbers of pike armed foot, they can ward off all but
SHK with shooting. Elephants are less of a problem and chariots are
easy pickings for large units with bow armed second rank. They are
slow and vulnerable to second bound charges, and once disordered they
are going to loose. Some can have LTS. Rating Good.

> Terrain Operations : Can the army deal with bad terrain situations?

With LHI 2HCW troops available, and a good number of J/sh armed LI,
terrain is not as much a problem as could be. This army can drop
ditches in forward zone, which is nice. Rating Average.


> > Then there would be some "special abilities" like temporary
fortifications,
> > obstacles, gimmicks.

Well for starters you get pesants in many flavors. Some can be
Irregular A, some with Bow, or Jls, and/or shield. Most will be
irregular E or D and should avoid battle if possible. Artillery is
available only at larger point totals. TF is available. Rating Good.

Overall, as discussed before, this is a very difficult army to run in
open environment mainly because it is close order based with
tempermental shock troops, and coordination of the two is extremely
tough. Overall rating Average for tournament play.

Wanax