Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

On Running/Playing the Condotta

First off, Ewan you are a bit off on my success with the Condatta. I win 75%
of
the time, less in the beginning, more now.
I tend to loose when I try something new with the list that really isn't my
playing style. Off course it also depends who I play as the list is not 1st
rate
(i.e. I have a hard time with good players with good lists (you with Selucid,
Dick with Indian)), though I have at least drawn with Chris Damour when he has
played Romans (which he won the NICT last year with) and Rob with Han
Chineese.
I think people who have played against me using the Condatta can attest that
the
army can be effective. Enough of that. Also note, much of this goes to the old
list, not the one that is coming out.

1200 points is Best
First thing to note about the Condatta is that they are much better at 1200
points than 1600 points. There are two reasons for this:
1) The only required buy is 4 E of Reg C knights and a general with army
standard. The rest is flexible, spearmen, Ir B knights, Reg B knights, LC
(IrB,
IrC, RegC). You can get pikeman (8 E), HG with 0.5 THCT, or upto XB. Summary
:
FLexibility with high quality stuff
2) After 1200 points, you run out of the stuff you really wnat, 8 E of Pike on
1200 points is good, on 1600 is just not enough. You are forced to buy C
knights
on 1600 points. The same can be said of 'only' two units of THCT/HG (4e, Reg
C,
0.5 THCT). Not enough for an opponent to be forced to fight it on 1600 points.
Espcially when most army varieties occur in the last 800 points of buying an
army. Summary: The quality of troops drop much more rapidly than other armies
at
higher points (or more correctly other armies get better stuff to deal with
you
at higher points where as the Condatta have to start buying less desirables).
Summary: Good stuff, just not a lot of any of it.

+/- For Army
Next, it is important to pick a city state. Each has an advantages and it
effects
what 'fluff' you can have with your knights.
1) All City States: Advantages: Can have lots of knights. In the old books, it
was the one of the few lists that could have 60 knights. The newer Holy
Warrior
seems to be uping the number of knights allowed, so this might disappear.
Everyone can be mounted, allow ing for a very quick army. No required foot.
Disavantage: No cheap guys, especially with JLS to fight elephants. These are
the bane of existance, as not much in the army can stop Elephants. The other
major disavantage is no shieled SHK. THis might not seem big, but Regular
knights against Ir Sh SHK can be a real problem, as a +2 roll when you start
down -1 for not having a shield can lead to a rout. Not as bad against
Regulars,
becuase they are less likely to get +2.

+/- by City State:
1) Venice: Advantages: Lots of light Cav. (Stradiots (16 E ir B Jls, Sh),
Hungarians (8 E Ir C, JLS/B, Sh), and pinning lc (6 E Reg C, XB)). A minor
advantage is LHI, XB, Reg C, 0.5 THCT, 2 4E units. Disadvantages: No more than
5
(6 if you stretch it) Reg B or Reg A knights. The rest are C's.
2) Milan: Advantages: upto 8 reg B/ Reg A knights. Also, the THCT/HG gys
mentioned above. Disadvantages: only 6E of LC, barely enough on 1200 points.
3) Others: I have not played the other City States, but one of them allows
more
LC than average, and several allow upto 4 E Ir B knights. Further, one of the
city states can pick up some LMI JLS.

Typical Lists
Both:
CINC Reg A SHK
Sub RegB SHK 2E
2x Reg B SHK 2E
2x Reg C SHK 2E
3x Reg C 2E LC XB (941 points)

Milanese (1200 points):
Sub to Reg A
2X Reg B SHK
2E LI Reg C XB
1 LC to Reg B (1204 points)

Venetian (1600 points):
Sub Reg B
3x 4E LC Ir B, Jls
2x 2E SHK Reg C
1X 2E LC Ir B (1611 points, Cheap element 14 points)

If I know there are a lot of elephants, I will replace the
SHK RegC with LHI Hg (or XB)/0.5 THCT, and LI XB to try and deal with the
elephants.

Tactics:
General: Speed and density of points is what this army has. The knights should
be hitting en mass by turn 3. Anything else and you will be outshot, whithered
away, exhausted. Also, with so many knight units, a LI screen is charged with
Reg C's to get to the crunchy stuff behind. LC is charged with Reg C knights
to
get to stuff behind. Force march Reg LC to center. Don't get attached to
generals as they will be charging in the front line very early in the game.
You
win some, you loose some.... Also, none of this 1 kn per foot unit. Knights
(especially regular) are only assured to beat/break an oponent going element
for
element. Anything other than a break requires that the opponent fails wavers
in
following bounds.

LC horde: Take Reg C knights, and dismount. No bow/JLS will effect you (even
disorderd). Shooting at SHI -2 just is not good. If you rotate units, you can
charge with mounted to try and catch. The most important thing is getting the
SHI to take the bow shots. Look for crunchy stuff. Watch out for HC with L,
they
will kill you on foot, but thats what your support unit is for....

LMI Horde: Charge, Charge, Charge.... and hope the opponent fails waver tests.
Waiting for them to form a line at teh table center with areas to come through
with irA is bad. Pin the marchers as far back as posible and try and go
through
the first line by turn 3, hoping that the routes break morale.

XB/LB/Sling Horde: Charge on horse en mass (by en mass I mean all but two
knight
units which are there to support the flanks) as quick as posible. No time to
waste in order to get shot up. You will be hurt and likely tired after the
charge, but there is little option as waiting you become weaker as you get
shot
up. Also, do to support shot, you will likely not break the opponent right
away,
so be prepared to be stuck for 2-3 turns. Watch out for elephants as they are
the one thing that can rout a supported unit in the flank. Again support
defined
as one of the many knight units unengaged on the flank.

Bow Horde or Romans: Dismount and charge or just plain charge. The advantage
of
dismounting is that you do not get tired, not reduced in effectiveness, etc.
Once simounted, you count as 8 figs (13 points a piece) and you are some of
the
best infantry in the game. The disadvantage is that your opponents foot no
longer gets the magical disorder for being being, so no waver test. You are in
for a long afternoon and hoping that you THCT can do better than there weapon
of
choice (usually not a problem, but you usually need to get an up roll).

Pike/Spear Horde: Dismount and charge. Since spear doesn't easily disorder you
need to get an up roll in order to puch back. Also, if you loose going in
(i.e.
become disordered- a distinct posiblility) you could be in for a world of
hurt.
2 E deep pikes are a little easier since if you win they become disordered and
are dogmeat. 4 E pike will kill you, so look for other targets as few armies
can
go 4 deep and not uncover soemthing nice and crunchy.

Elephants: Machivelli said it best, avoid like the ancients did (meaning
Romans,
obviously nto a warrior player). I have had the most success with a pick and
rol
manuver, pick with the LC, and hit with the SHK. The longer the game goes on,
the better chance the opponent has of finding you and killing you. If there
are
tons of elephants, default to charge, charge, charge... and hope for the best.
SHK can survive a turn of charging an elephant to the front to allow others to
charge, but could be hurting after breaking off and rallying disordered 160
paces away. Note: I have never won a defensive battle playing against
elephants.

Terrain
Chris Damour has it right, open x4. Ok maybe some woods for the flanks, but
in
general you want open in front of you to dismount and be able to charge
without
becoming disorder. Hills, well nice, noone will go near with knights on top,
and
can be covered anyhow. Woods, good for holding a flank and it buys time.
Brush..
bad. You get disordered by it, can't dismount in it, and it gives places for
pesky LMI/LI/LHI to hide. Water, fun (esp. MWF with boats), but can cut down
on
your space to move. Minor is too unpredictable to have any use. There are
those
that are much better with terrain that can explain more nuances, these are
just
general thoughts.

Final thoughts
OK, thats how to use the Condatta. Note, I play agressively (hush Jevon) and
use
the army that way (well most now days). The regulars SHK which most abhore are
important, not so much for readjustments during the game, but to dismount. Ir
take too long to dismount and get in combat without hitting disordered. Also,
I
have lost more games by not trying to actively follow through with my plan, no
matter how bad it gets. Changing direction and the plan mid game is the surest
recipe for disaster and rout. I have tried other variations of the list, but
found that the infantry forced a defensive game and you could be picked apart
slowly. None of the infantry hit hard or numerous enough to warrent buying and
the XB jsut is not an effetive weapon. HG is nice, but easily avoidable, o not
effective. SHK, like the historical Condatta, is the way to go. Not EHK, Sh,
but
SHK. Why? SHK and SHI are causes of unease for any put elephant, knights, SHC,
or (posibly) chariot. Something I wish I had remembered when that out flanked
Roman general charged my general (tired, disordered, rallying) impetously to
rout me. Can also matter with Ir infantry charging youe dismounted dudes.

[Dave Smith]

***Excellent stuff! Maybe Jon could start a folder in the file
section to put good stuff on army composition/tactics/etc like this
in it. I appreciate your effort in doing this Sean.

Dave


--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Sean-Patrick Scott
<sscott04@a...> wrote:
> On Running/Playing the Condotta
>
> First off, Ewan you are a bit off on my success with the
Condatta. I win 75%
> of
> the time, less in the beginning, more now.
> I tend to loose when I try something new with the list that really
isn't my
> playing style. Off course it also depends who I play as the list
is not 1st
> rate
> (i.e. I have a hard time with good players with good lists (you
with Selucid,
> Dick with Indian)), though I have at least drawn with Chris Damour
when he has
> played Romans (which he won the NICT last year with) and Rob with
Han
> Chineese.
> I think people who have played against me using the Condatta can
attest that
> the
> army can be effective. Enough of that. Also note, much of this
goes to the old
> list, not the one that is coming out.
>
> 1200 points is Best
> First thing to note about the Condatta is that they are much
better at 1200
> points than 1600 points. There are two reasons for this:
> 1) The only required buy is 4 E of Reg C knights and a general
with army
> standard. The rest is flexible, spearmen, Ir B knights, Reg B
knights, LC
> (IrB,
> IrC, RegC). You can get pikeman (8 E), HG with 0.5 THCT, or upto
XB. Summary
> :
> FLexibility with high quality stuff
> 2) After 1200 points, you run out of the stuff you really wnat, 8
E of Pike on
> 1200 points is good, on 1600 is just not enough. You are forced to
buy C
> knights
> on 1600 points. The same can be said of 'only' two units of
THCT/HG (4e, Reg
> C,
> 0.5 THCT). Not enough for an opponent to be forced to fight it on
1600 points.
> Espcially when most army varieties occur in the last 800 points of
buying an
> army. Summary: The quality of troops drop much more rapidly than
other armies
> at
> higher points (or more correctly other armies get better stuff to
deal with
> you
> at higher points where as the Condatta have to start buying less
desirables).
> Summary: Good stuff, just not a lot of any of it.
>
> +/- For Army
> Next, it is important to pick a city state. Each has an
advantages and it
> effects
> what 'fluff' you can have with your knights.
> 1) All City States: Advantages: Can have lots of knights. In the
old books, it
> was the one of the few lists that could have 60 knights. The newer
Holy
> Warrior
> seems to be uping the number of knights allowed, so this might
disappear.
> Everyone can be mounted, allow ing for a very quick army. No
required foot.
> Disavantage: No cheap guys, especially with JLS to fight
elephants. These are
> the bane of existance, as not much in the army can stop Elephants.
The other
> major disavantage is no shieled SHK. THis might not seem big, but
Regular
> knights against Ir Sh SHK can be a real problem, as a +2 roll
when you start
> down -1 for not having a shield can lead to a rout. Not as bad
against
> Regulars,
> becuase they are less likely to get +2.
>
> +/- by City State:
> 1) Venice: Advantages: Lots of light Cav. (Stradiots (16 E ir B
Jls, Sh),
> Hungarians (8 E Ir C, JLS/B, Sh), and pinning lc (6 E Reg C, XB)).
A minor
> advantage is LHI, XB, Reg C, 0.5 THCT, 2 4E units. Disadvantages:
No more than
> 5
> (6 if you stretch it) Reg B or Reg A knights. The rest are C's.
> 2) Milan: Advantages: upto 8 reg B/ Reg A knights. Also, the
THCT/HG gys
> mentioned above. Disadvantages: only 6E of LC, barely enough on
1200 points.
> 3) Others: I have not played the other City States, but one of
them allows
> more
> LC than average, and several allow upto 4 E Ir B knights. Further,
one of the
> city states can pick up some LMI JLS.
>
> Typical Lists
> Both:
> CINC Reg A SHK
> Sub RegB SHK 2E
> 2x Reg B SHK 2E
> 2x Reg C SHK 2E
> 3x Reg C 2E LC XB (941 points)
>
> Milanese (1200 points):
> Sub to Reg A
> 2X Reg B SHK
> 2E LI Reg C XB
> 1 LC to Reg B (1204 points)
>
> Venetian (1600 points):
> Sub Reg B
> 3x 4E LC Ir B, Jls
> 2x 2E SHK Reg C
> 1X 2E LC Ir B (1611 points, Cheap element 14
points)
>
> If I know there are a lot of elephants, I will replace the
> SHK RegC with LHI Hg (or XB)/0.5 THCT, and LI XB to try and deal
with the
> elephants.
>
> Tactics:
> General: Speed and density of points is what this army has. The
knights should
> be hitting en mass by turn 3. Anything else and you will be
outshot, whithered
> away, exhausted. Also, with so many knight units, a LI screen is
charged with
> Reg C's to get to the crunchy stuff behind. LC is charged with Reg
C knights
> to
> get to stuff behind. Force march Reg LC to center. Don't get
attached to
> generals as they will be charging in the front line very early in
the game.
> You
> win some, you loose some.... Also, none of this 1 kn per foot
unit. Knights
> (especially regular) are only assured to beat/break an oponent
going element
> for
> element. Anything other than a break requires that the opponent
fails wavers
> in
> following bounds.
>
> LC horde: Take Reg C knights, and dismount. No bow/JLS will effect
you (even
> disorderd). Shooting at SHI -2 just is not good. If you rotate
units, you can
> charge with mounted to try and catch. The most important thing is
getting the
> SHI to take the bow shots. Look for crunchy stuff. Watch out for
HC with L,
> they
> will kill you on foot, but thats what your support unit is for....
>
> LMI Horde: Charge, Charge, Charge.... and hope the opponent fails
waver tests.
> Waiting for them to form a line at teh table center with areas to
come through
> with irA is bad. Pin the marchers as far back as posible and try
and go
> through
> the first line by turn 3, hoping that the routes break morale.
>
> XB/LB/Sling Horde: Charge on horse en mass (by en mass I mean all
but two
> knight
> units which are there to support the flanks) as quick as posible.
No time to
> waste in order to get shot up. You will be hurt and likely tired
after the
> charge, but there is little option as waiting you become weaker as
you get
> shot
> up. Also, do to support shot, you will likely not break the
opponent right
> away,
> so be prepared to be stuck for 2-3 turns. Watch out for elephants
as they are
> the one thing that can rout a supported unit in the flank. Again
support
> defined
> as one of the many knight units unengaged on the flank.
>
> Bow Horde or Romans: Dismount and charge or just plain charge. The
advantage
> of
> dismounting is that you do not get tired, not reduced in
effectiveness, etc.
> Once simounted, you count as 8 figs (13 points a piece) and you
are some of
> the
> best infantry in the game. The disadvantage is that your opponents
foot no
> longer gets the magical disorder for being being, so no waver
test. You are in
> for a long afternoon and hoping that you THCT can do better than
there weapon
> of
> choice (usually not a problem, but you usually need to get an up
roll).
>
> Pike/Spear Horde: Dismount and charge. Since spear doesn't easily
disorder you
> need to get an up roll in order to puch back. Also, if you loose
going in
> (i.e.
> become disordered- a distinct posiblility) you could be in for a
world of
> hurt.
> 2 E deep pikes are a little easier since if you win they become
disordered and
> are dogmeat. 4 E pike will kill you, so look for other targets as
few armies
> can
> go 4 deep and not uncover soemthing nice and crunchy.
>
> Elephants: Machivelli said it best, avoid like the ancients did
(meaning
> Romans,
> obviously nto a warrior player). I have had the most success with
a pick and
> rol
> manuver, pick with the LC, and hit with the SHK. The longer the
game goes on,
> the better chance the opponent has of finding you and killing you.
If there
> are
> tons of elephants, default to charge, charge, charge... and hope
for the best.
> SHK can survive a turn of charging an elephant to the front to
allow others to
> charge, but could be hurting after breaking off and rallying
disordered 160
> paces away. Note: I have never won a defensive battle playing
against
> elephants.
>
> Terrain
> Chris Damour has it right, open x4. Ok maybe some woods for
the flanks, but
> in
> general you want open in front of you to dismount and be able to
charge
> without
> becoming disorder. Hills, well nice, noone will go near with
knights on top,
> and
> can be covered anyhow. Woods, good for holding a flank and it buys
time.
> Brush..
> bad. You get disordered by it, can't dismount in it, and it gives
places for
> pesky LMI/LI/LHI to hide. Water, fun (esp. MWF with boats), but
can cut down
> on
> your space to move. Minor is too unpredictable to have any use.
There are
> those
> that are much better with terrain that can explain more nuances,
these are
> just
> general thoughts.
>
> Final thoughts
> OK, thats how to use the Condatta. Note, I play agressively (hush
Jevon) and
> use
> the army that way (well most now days). The regulars SHK which
most abhore are
> important, not so much for readjustments during the game, but to
dismount. Ir
> take too long to dismount and get in combat without hitting
disordered. Also,
> I
> have lost more games by not trying to actively follow through with
my plan, no
> matter how bad it gets. Changing direction and the plan mid game
is the surest
> recipe for disaster and rout. I have tried other variations of the
list, but
> found that the infantry forced a defensive game and you could be
picked apart
> slowly. None of the infantry hit hard or numerous enough to
warrent buying and
> the XB jsut is not an effetive weapon. HG is nice, but easily
avoidable, o not
> effective. SHK, like the historical Condatta, is the way to go.
Not EHK, Sh,
> but
> SHK. Why? SHK and SHI are causes of unease for any put elephant,
knights, SHC,
> or (posibly) chariot. Something I wish I had remembered when that
out flanked
> Roman general charged my general (tired, disordered, rallying)
impetously to
> rout me. Can also matter with Ir infantry charging youe dismounted
dudes.