Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

This is an LC question for some of the more experienced players like
Mark Stone.

I need help.

Next weekend I will be running Early Hungarian against Mongols. My
problem is that the mongol LC are just, well . . . better.

The mongol LC fight in 1.5 ranks and the hungarian don't. Let me say
first - this is *not* an "uncosted list rules rant". I just don't
know how to successfully deal with my LC costing the same but not
being as good. (or I guess to be exact: the hungarian LC doesn't cost
quite as much because they are irreg but I still face the same
problem)

I could:

1) purchase the minimum LC?

I figure pound for pound I'll get crucned in every matchup so why
bother. But this seems ahistorical. The backbone of the early
hungarian army was their light cav

2) max out and try to overwhelm the mongol LC with numbers?

win on quantity instead of quality. This also seems ahistorical and
stupid (more LC than the mongols?!)

So, if anybody has any advice, I'd love to read it.

Thanks,
Jonathan

the battle of Sajo River happened for a reason By the time of that battle,
Hungary was a different place and people than it's Magyar roots had begun. The
LC in question were atleast partially Cumans hiding from the Mongols as well as
a mix of a few other clans originating from the steppe. You're going to have to
try and exploit the Mongol's weaknesses rather than playing to their strengths,
historic or not. Historically Hungary lost.

Jonathan <ccoutoftown@...> wrote: This is an LC question for some of the
more experienced players like
Mark Stone.

I need help.

Next weekend I will be running Early Hungarian against Mongols. My
problem is that the mongol LC are just, well . . . better.

The mongol LC fight in 1.5 ranks and the hungarian don't. Let me say
first - this is *not* an "uncosted list rules rant". I just don't
know how to successfully deal with my LC costing the same but not
being as good. (or I guess to be exact: the hungarian LC doesn't cost
quite as much because they are irreg but I still face the same
problem)

I could:

1) purchase the minimum LC?

I figure pound for pound I'll get crucned in every matchup so why
bother. But this seems ahistorical. The backbone of the early
hungarian army was their light cav

2) max out and try to overwhelm the mongol LC with numbers?

win on quantity instead of quality. This also seems ahistorical and
stupid (more LC than the mongols?!)

So, if anybody has any advice, I'd love to read it.

Thanks,
Jonathan





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The Hungarians can win this one.

I have been using Mongols a fair bit lately. A tournament held here
in January in Canberra (Cancon) was won easily by Paul Collins with
Early Hungarian. I had a few practise games. I lost all of them.

The Hungarians can have big units of cheap irregular spearmen that
the Mongols can't do much about. The Hungarians can have lots of bow
armed Light infantry.

If you want them the Hungarians can have large units of Irr MC, L,
B, Sh

All of these things combined with HK or similar and large units of
Irr LC B should put the Hungarians in good stead against the
Mongols.

Man for man the Mongols will beat your LC. They beat almost nothing
else in your army by fighting it, and you will have many many more
men than them. You are also likely to win the shooting war. Make him
test for 2cpf with his LC if he wants to charge you.

All the best

Adrian Williams

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Doug Pegram
<greenpinarello@...> wrote:
>
> the battle of Sajo River happened for a reason By the time of
that battle, Hungary was a different place and people than it's
Magyar roots had begun. The LC in question were atleast partially
Cumans hiding from the Mongols as well as a mix of a few other clans
originating from the steppe. You're going to have to try and exploit
the Mongol's weaknesses rather than playing to their strengths,
historic or not. Historically Hungary lost.
>
> Jonathan <ccoutoftown@...> wrote: This is an LC question for some
of the more experienced players like
> Mark Stone.
>
> I need help.
>
> Next weekend I will be running Early Hungarian against Mongols.
My
> problem is that the mongol LC are just, well . . . better.
>
> The mongol LC fight in 1.5 ranks and the hungarian don't. Let me
say
> first - this is *not* an "uncosted list rules rant". I just don't
> know how to successfully deal with my LC costing the same but not
> being as good. (or I guess to be exact: the hungarian LC doesn't
cost
> quite as much because they are irreg but I still face the same
> problem)
>
> I could:
>
> 1) purchase the minimum LC?
>
> I figure pound for pound I'll get crucned in every matchup so why
> bother. But this seems ahistorical. The backbone of the early
> hungarian army was their light cav
>
> 2) max out and try to overwhelm the mongol LC with numbers?
>
> win on quantity instead of quality. This also seems ahistorical
and
> stupid (more LC than the mongols?!)
>
> So, if anybody has any advice, I'd love to read it.
>
> Thanks,
> Jonathan
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
> Visit your group "WarriorRules" on the web.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> WarriorRules-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Mail
> Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Bill Chriss]

> the battle of Sajo River happened for a reason By the time of that
> battle, Hungary was a different place and people than it's Magyar roots
> had begun. The LC in question were atleast partially Cumans hiding from
> the Mongols as well as a mix of a few other clans originating from the
> steppe. You're going to have to try and exploit the Mongol's weaknesses
> rather than playing to their strengths, historic or not. Historically
> Hungary lost.
>

This, I think, is something to always bear in mind. When I begin grousing
about my hoplites' weakness in the face of Macedonian phalangites, it is
well to remember how things went in real life!

-Greek

[Greg Regets]

First, have a clear understanding that the Mongol wants to get in a
fight, not a shooting battle. You actually have the advantage in the
shooting battle, as you are bit cheaper. A combination of tactics can
help you.

1. As has been previously mentioned, anything that he can't charge
frontally, offers protection. The six elements of Serbian Archers are
highly useful.

2. Brush is your friend and a nice place for you to play the LC game.
If he charges you while you are in it, he disorders.

3. Small light infantry units, forward deployed will deny him the
ability to march pin against your LC at 240p, which means he can't
get to 40p in approach. This radically decreases his chance of
catching you when you evade ... and/or ... allows you to bring up the
afore mentioned item 1.'s, things he can't charge frontally.

4. The use of visibility altering terrain (woods), deployed partially
across the center line of the table, forces him to attack past it.
there is some mystery attached to this ... "Exactly what do you have
in those woods anyway?"

5. The Szekely Scouts are not the worst match in the world. Non-
Impetuous Mongol will me 3@7 vs. your 2@9. If you had any other
factor working in your favor (nice prep shot that would make him
tired or disordered, you charging down a hill, etc ...) this could
work well for you.

A combination of these tactics will help you. Remember that the enemy
will be trying to do something to prevent any/all of these things, so
try to use them all in combination, rather then relying on any one.
Using them all makes his job of countering your tactics, much more
difficult.

Hope this helps ... g



--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan" <ccoutoftown@...>
wrote:
>
> This is an LC question for some of the more experienced players
like
> Mark Stone.
>
> I need help.
>
> Next weekend I will be running Early Hungarian against Mongols. My
> problem is that the mongol LC are just, well . . . better.
>
> The mongol LC fight in 1.5 ranks and the hungarian don't. Let me
say
> first - this is *not* an "uncosted list rules rant". I just don't
> know how to successfully deal with my LC costing the same but not
> being as good. (or I guess to be exact: the hungarian LC doesn't
cost
> quite as much because they are irreg but I still face the same
> problem)
>
> I could:
>
> 1) purchase the minimum LC?
>
> I figure pound for pound I'll get crucned in every matchup so why
> bother. But this seems ahistorical. The backbone of the early
> hungarian army was their light cav
>
> 2) max out and try to overwhelm the mongol LC with numbers?
>
> win on quantity instead of quality. This also seems ahistorical
and
> stupid (more LC than the mongols?!)
>
> So, if anybody has any advice, I'd love to read it.
>
> Thanks,
> Jonathan
>

[Frank Gilson]

First off, are you Early Early Hungarian? or Later Early Hungarian?
I'm hopeful Late...as access to HK helps you out a great deal.

Next...you have a list buying choice...either you buy no infantry and
only mounted, or you buy a fair amount of required infantry. Thus,
let's analyze the infantry to see if it is worth it.

Hungarian Spearmen would be Irr C MI LTS,Sh. Not exactly cost
efficient for their role...which is holding a long section of line.
121 points for 32 figures only holds around 4 elements frontage. If
you stretch out only 1 element deep, suddenly you're vulnerable to
Mongol shooting and lancers charging.

Those spearmen only work to extend a line from bad terrain that you
occupy with things like the Croatian Spearmen as LMI. I
emphasize 'bad' terrain...woods or steep hills, not just brush.

The bow armed LI is pretty bad...being Irr C, not D, and unable to
get shields. That makes it both costly and vulnerable.

You then have two main choices...do you take an infantry reliant army
and muck up the table with terrain to cut down frontage? or go all
cavalry...I would advise the latter, especially because Mongol list
special rules can be used to eliminate some or all of your terrain
picks!

Note that the Mongol light cavalry is actually much more expensive
than yours when you organize yours properly.

You should be looking at 18 figure Irr C LC B units. Those will fire
with 12 figures at close range when in skirmish, a formation they
should very often occupy.

Have nothing behind such units so they can freely evade. Put your
other cavalry, HK, HC, MC, in the gaps.

You'll be moving straight ahead, trading shooting, and hopefully
coming out on top given you'll have more figures firing.

Your LC should be pulling fire away from your heavier cavalry.

The Mongols will probably respond by concentrating forces against one
part of your army, while screening and falling back against the rest,
watch out for that...by making sure you have something of a reserve
and enough units overall.

Frank

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan" <ccoutoftown@...>
wrote:
>
> This is an LC question for some of the more experienced players
like
> Mark Stone.
>
> I need help.
>
> Next weekend I will be running Early Hungarian against Mongols. My
> problem is that the mongol LC are just, well . . . better.
>
> The mongol LC fight in 1.5 ranks and the hungarian don't. Let me
say
> first - this is *not* an "uncosted list rules rant". I just don't
> know how to successfully deal with my LC costing the same but not
> being as good. (or I guess to be exact: the hungarian LC doesn't
cost
> quite as much because they are irreg but I still face the same
> problem)
>
> I could:
>
> 1) purchase the minimum LC?
>
> I figure pound for pound I'll get crucned in every matchup so why
> bother. But this seems ahistorical. The backbone of the early
> hungarian army was their light cav
>
> 2) max out and try to overwhelm the mongol LC with numbers?
>
> win on quantity instead of quality. This also seems ahistorical
and
> stupid (more LC than the mongols?!)
>
> So, if anybody has any advice, I'd love to read it.
>
> Thanks,
> Jonathan
>

thanks a lot. you guys have been really helpful! I'll try all of this stuff
out.

Jonathan


--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Gilson" <franktrevorgilson@...>
wrote:
>
> First off, are you Early Early Hungarian? or Later Early Hungarian?
> I'm hopeful Late...as access to HK helps you out a great deal.
>
> Next...you have a list buying choice...either you buy no infantry and
> only mounted, or you buy a fair amount of required infantry. Thus,
> let's analyze the infantry to see if it is worth it.
>
> Hungarian Spearmen would be Irr C MI LTS,Sh. Not exactly cost
> efficient for their role...which is holding a long section of line.
> 121 points for 32 figures only holds around 4 elements frontage. If
> you stretch out only 1 element deep, suddenly you're vulnerable to
> Mongol shooting and lancers charging.
>
> Those spearmen only work to extend a line from bad terrain that you
> occupy with things like the Croatian Spearmen as LMI. I
> emphasize 'bad' terrain...woods or steep hills, not just brush.
>
> The bow armed LI is pretty bad...being Irr C, not D, and unable to
> get shields. That makes it both costly and vulnerable.
>
> You then have two main choices...do you take an infantry reliant army
> and muck up the table with terrain to cut down frontage? or go all
> cavalry...I would advise the latter, especially because Mongol list
> special rules can be used to eliminate some or all of your terrain
> picks!
>
> Note that the Mongol light cavalry is actually much more expensive
> than yours when you organize yours properly.
>
> You should be looking at 18 figure Irr C LC B units. Those will fire
> with 12 figures at close range when in skirmish, a formation they
> should very often occupy.
>
> Have nothing behind such units so they can freely evade. Put your
> other cavalry, HK, HC, MC, in the gaps.
>
> You'll be moving straight ahead, trading shooting, and hopefully
> coming out on top given you'll have more figures firing.
>
> Your LC should be pulling fire away from your heavier cavalry.
>
> The Mongols will probably respond by concentrating forces against one
> part of your army, while screening and falling back against the rest,
> watch out for that...by making sure you have something of a reserve
> and enough units overall.
>
> Frank
>
> --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan" <ccoutoftown@>
> wrote:
> >
> > This is an LC question for some of the more experienced players
> like
> > Mark Stone.
> >
> > I need help.
> >
> > Next weekend I will be running Early Hungarian against Mongols. My
> > problem is that the mongol LC are just, well . . . better.
> >
> > The mongol LC fight in 1.5 ranks and the hungarian don't. Let me
> say
> > first - this is *not* an "uncosted list rules rant". I just don't
> > know how to successfully deal with my LC costing the same but not
> > being as good. (or I guess to be exact: the hungarian LC doesn't
> cost
> > quite as much because they are irreg but I still face the same
> > problem)
> >
> > I could:
> >
> > 1) purchase the minimum LC?
> >
> > I figure pound for pound I'll get crucned in every matchup so why
> > bother. But this seems ahistorical. The backbone of the early
> > hungarian army was their light cav
> >
> > 2) max out and try to overwhelm the mongol LC with numbers?
> >
> > win on quantity instead of quality. This also seems ahistorical
> and
> > stupid (more LC than the mongols?!)
> >
> > So, if anybody has any advice, I'd love to read it.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Jonathan
> >
>