Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Mark Stone]

So, I'm going to disagree with pretty much all the comments here. I've run 1st
Crusade for years, and it's one of my favorite "just for fun" armies, so
there's some experience to back this up.

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Wanax Andron" <spocksleftball@y...> wrote:

> --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Martin" <mwolverton@h...> wrote:
>>
>> Hey all.Don't pull and punches. give your opinions and suggestions for
>> tactics, changes, etc.
>> 1500 pnt Holy Warrior list 12 "First Crusade"
>>
>> 1 cnc +2 irrb HK,l,sh + 3 irrb HC,l,sh
>>
>> 1 sg + 2 irrb Hk,l,sh + 3 irrb Hc,l,sh
>
> Unless you plan on prompting your close order to charge a second
> time, the subgeneral is a waste of points. You have automatic
> charging knights which a subgeneral cannot hold back anyway. Also as
> a unit he is not reliable to intercept routers other than LI and "E"
> troops, so again of little value. I suggest spending the points on
> other units noted below.
>

??? You've got to be kidding. The general costs 55 points (general w/P
standard). Take him away and you have to spend 11 points (the HK) + 25 points
(the command factor), meaning you save a whopping 18 points by getting rid of
the general.

In my experience you never have too many prompt points, especially with an
irregular army.That alone would be worth 18 points. And I really don't
understand the comment about "not reliable to intercept routers". He's Irr B!
How much more reliable do you want??

Oh, and the general will also make this unit less likely to roll down at
contact; another important benefit.

>>
>> 6 irra Hc,l,sh + 6 irrb Hc,l,sh
>>
> Use some of the subgeneral's points to split this into 2 units. Here
> it is just a big fat shooting target for enemy archers.
>

Again, I disagree. Having a 12 figure cav unit can be an excellent way to deal
with enemy archers. Many times I've found that a 6 figure unit will get shot to
pieces, and a pair of 6 figure units only gives my opponent a choice of what to
shoot to pieces. In the same circumstances a larger 12 figure unit will often
become a threat to the archers because it spreads the same number of shooting
casualties over more figures, thus making it less likely to become tired,
disordered, etc. You don't want a lot of 12 figure units like this, but having
one is a good idea.

>>
>> 16 irrc MI,lts,sh + 16 irrd MI,cb
>>
> I run this configuration as 16 LTS and 8 B, thus I get 2 ranks of
> LTS. One rank of LTS backed by CB will not slow anyone's charge
> against it. The CB have crappy factors against almost everyone
>

People really need to understand the purpose of line units. Line units are there
to minimize casualties received in hand-to-hand. That's their number one job.
This unit is configured exactly right to serve that purpose. And CB do not have
crappy factors against almost everyone. Against certain common mounted types
(EHK, EHC) they have a better factor than bow, and against other common mounted
types (SHK, HC) their factor is sufficient to be a threat.

You run this unit in one of two formations, depending on what you face. If your
opponent has mounted shock troops but no foot of hand to hand consequence (this
will happen against horse archer armies and a lot of knight armies) then you
run a front rank of LTS, and a second rank of CB (all of which gets to shoot),
and defy your opponent to do a CPF to you. He's going to need to commit at
least 2 mounted units to do it, maybe 3, and your unit will take a long time to
kill even so, giving you opportunities elsewhere.

If, on the other hand, your opponent has foot that are a hand to hand threat,
then you run this as 2 ranks of LTS backed by 2 ranks of CB. The CB guys no
longer shoot, but they do contribute to making this a bulkier unit that is
harder to do casualties to.

>>
>> 2x 16 irrc MI,jls,sh + 16 irrd MI,jls,b
>>
>
> Better to run this as a mega 12E unit with your required 2E of CB in the
> center of the second rank and the B/J second rankers to either side. Upgrade
> the front rank to HI to resist shooting and combat better and downgrade most
> to "D".

Well, these guys just suck against anything but elephants. Yes, you can run them
as one mega unit with the CB thrown in, and yes, you should downgrade most to
"D", but the configuration here isn't bad. The key is to spend as few points on
these required troops as possible, to buy as few as you can get away with, and
to deploy them behind the line until there's something sufficiently soft that
they can match up against.

>>
>> 4x 6 irra LMI,jls,sh + 6 irrd LMI,jls + 12 irrd LMI,ipw
>>
> I have run this peasant configuration many times. The IPW guys only
> count out to the forth rank as 1/2 figs, so this block will remain 2E
> wide and 4 deep always. It cannot skirmish, so a juicy target for
> enemy archers starting at @3 unless disordered then @5. It will
> waver as an egar D morale troop, so it will probably shake first
> test. Frankly in attacking it will scream in, roll up 4 forcing
> whatever it can find to recoil disordered, but it then will take such
> damage as to evaporate before it can finish the job forcing those
> units trying to support it to test waver.

Wow, this is such a wrong view of the pilgrims. The configuration Martin has
here is pretty much the right one. You want these guys 2 elements wide, 6 ranks
deep. The only change I'd make is to upgrade the second rank to Irr C (which
you can do).

It doesn't matter that these guys can't skirmish. That isn't their function.
Their function is to lead the attack, creating disruptions that the knights can
then exploit.

And you've got the shooting factors all wrong. Bow against LMI is a 2, not a 3.
Disordered only adds a +1 (shielded but disordered) not a +2. And frankly,
these guys _aren't_ going to take shooting damage worth worrying about because
they present the equivalent of 24 figures on just 2 elements' frontage.

That's the same reason they _don't_ evaporate in hand-to-hand. They just count
as too big a unit. Split off the IPW guys, though, and they will start to
evaporate.


>>
>> 12 irrc LI,b,sh
>>
>
> Not worth the points. Scrap this unit.
>

What?? Shielded light infantry with bow is one of the best skirmishing troop
types you can possibly buy. It's almost never a mistake to buy them, and on
this list you want to buy all you can get.

> Pick up the Danish crusaders as 2x4E IrgC LHI/LMI 2HCW/sh JLS/sh.
> These guys will counter elephants as long as you keep them out of
> shooting zones or from under cavalry hooves. They can clear woods,
> kill elephants quick, and basically provide you with a counterpunch
> to those things that might come at your close order infantry.

Hmm, a unit that's brittle, hard to get impetuous, and expensive. Thanks, but I
think I'll pass. Anything these guys can do, the pilgrims can do better. Unless
you're playing 2000 points don't buy these guys.


-Mark Stone

So not unusual someone disagrees with me. This is good, as again it
demonstrates that a single list can generate a multitude of answers.
First, please, I was only giving my opinion, and my response was not
ment to be in any way a negative. I've run this list every way from
Sunday, I love it, and I encourage everyone to play it at least
twice. Fun is operative here.

> > Unless you plan on prompting your close order to charge a second
> > time, the subgeneral is a waste of points. You have automatic
> > charging knights which a subgeneral cannot hold back anyway. Also
as
> > a unit he is not reliable to intercept routers other than LI
and "E"
> > troops, so again of little value. I suggest spending the points on
> > other units noted below.
> >
>
> ??? You've got to be kidding. The general costs 55 points (general
w/P
> standard). Take him away and you have to spend 11 points (the HK) +
25 points
> (the command factor), meaning you save a whopping 18 points by
getting rid of
> the general.

Well first I must say I run this army at 1200 points, so I would
never pick up the HK to begin with. At lower points to split an army
into 2 or more commands makes any one command brittle. 14 units now
is 6 and 8 or 7 each lets say. Now to take out the entire army for
the win I expend everything but the LI and LC into the 8 unit command
and kill 3 units. Now the entire army is in retreat. I just don't
see an upside to splitting a self motivated army.


>
> In my experience you never have too many prompt points, especially
with an
> irregular army.That alone would be worth 18 points. And I really
don't
> understand the comment about "not reliable to intercept routers".
He's Irr B!
> How much more reliable do you want??

I tend to roll "1" with B grade troops. :)

Generally with this army there are going to be too many things to do
with too few to spare the subgeneral. He is a unit, so no only will
he test to intercept, his lack of presents with his banner driving
his troops forward will be enough to turn the momentum over to the
enemy since his uneasy "C" will not not charge. All for the risk of
shaking to catch what is probably a 81 point routing HC unit.

>
> Oh, and the general will also make this unit less likely to roll
down at
> contact; another important benefit.

Now this is true, since any down roll with the HC is going to usually
be very very bad.

>
> >>
> >> 6 irra Hc,l,sh + 6 irrb Hc,l,sh
> >>
> > Use some of the subgeneral's points to split this into 2 units.
Here
> > it is just a big fat shooting target for enemy archers.
> >
>
> Again, I disagree. Having a 12 figure cav unit can be an excellent
way to deal
> with enemy archers. Many times I've found that a 6 figure unit will
get shot to
> pieces, and a pair of 6 figure units only gives my opponent a
choice of what to
> shoot to pieces. In the same circumstances a larger 12 figure unit
will often
> become a threat to the archers because it spreads the same number
of shooting
> casualties over more figures, thus making it less likely to become
tired,
> disordered, etc. You don't want a lot of 12 figure units like this,
but having
> one is a good idea.

Since ther is only one, the enemy will hunt it down and shoot it
tired before it ever gets a charge off. I just think more coverage
allows for more units with combined arms interplay. This unit has a
large footprint that will allow more shooting at it and less bleeding
off to otherwise LI shooters. Yes it looks good hitting a unit
standing still, but my experience says hitting twice with 5@7 is
better than hitting once with 9@7. The numbers are there and the
chance to essentially roll again is a major plus for non-dice rolling
people like myself.

>
> >>
> >> 16 irrc MI,lts,sh + 16 irrd MI,cb
> >>
> > I run this configuration as 16 LTS and 8 B, thus I get 2 ranks of
> > LTS. One rank of LTS backed by CB will not slow anyone's charge
> > against it. The CB have crappy factors against almost everyone
> >
>
> People really need to understand the purpose of line units. Line
units are there
> to minimize casualties received in hand-to-hand. That's their
number one job.
> This unit is configured exactly right to serve that purpose. And CB
do not have
> crappy factors against almost everyone. Against certain common
mounted types
> (EHK, EHC) they have a better factor than bow, and against other
common mounted
> types (SHK, HC) their factor is sufficient to be a threat.

First CB shoots LMI at a 1 rather than a 2. Second, it will not stop
the enemy or shoot down sufficiently any LMI that charge into the
face of this unit and pinn it. More likely the LMI will recoil it so
that when the SHK charge in on the next bound they will be fighting
the second rank which is a sweep on sheildless MI.

>
> You run this unit in one of two formations, depending on what you
face. If your
> opponent has mounted shock troops but no foot of hand to hand
consequence (this
> will happen against horse archer armies and a lot of knight armies)
then you
> run a front rank of LTS, and a second rank of CB (all of which gets
to shoot),
> and defy your opponent to do a CPF to you. He's going to need to
commit at
> least 2 mounted units to do it, maybe 3, and your unit will take a
long time to
> kill even so, giving you opportunities elsewhere.

Absolutely as per your scenario. But look at my scenario above. It
is classic to run something onto the LTS then let the mounted pound
in. I feel certain I could kill this unit with 1x6E LMI 2HCW/sh
JLS/sh and 1x2E IrgB SHK L/sh. First the LMI does 4@5 and 2@5 for 24
per element frontage! the LTS stand and take it with 4@3 with a shot
of 4@2 which is 8 in shooting and 10 HTH. 24x3 is 72 CPF to 30
returned in HTH. Sorry Mark, but the LTS are going backwards right
away. Even if shot down 1, a 3 element frontage will see the LTS go
back. The SHK facing now unsteady LTS do not pay the -2 and will rip
into them like butter. Sorry it is just a target.

I understand you are going to manuver around and change formations
but this being irregular just makes it problematic.

>
> If, on the other hand, your opponent has foot that are a hand to
hand threat,
> then you run this as 2 ranks of LTS backed by 2 ranks of CB. The CB
guys no
> longer shoot, but they do contribute to making this a bulkier unit
that is
> harder to do casualties to.


True and I do this with my LTS, the problem is they just won't stand
against most foot opponants currently feilded in open play. They
even loose to LTS armed LMI...

>
> >>
> >> 2x 16 irrc MI,jls,sh + 16 irrd MI,jls,b
> >>
> >
> > Better to run this as a mega 12E unit with your required 2E of CB
in the
> > center of the second rank and the B/J second rankers to either
side. Upgrade
> > the front rank to HI to resist shooting and combat better and
downgrade most
> > to "D".
>
> Well, these guys just suck against anything but elephants. Yes, you
can run them
> as one mega unit with the CB thrown in, and yes, you should
downgrade most to
> "D", but the configuration here isn't bad.

Please Mark, the guy asked for opinions and that's all I'mgiving. :)

Nothing is bad that survives and/or wins...


The key is to spend as few points on
> these required troops as possible, to buy as few as you can get
away with, and
> to deploy them behind the line until there's something sufficiently
soft that
> they can match up against.

True. I think the JLS for the archers make them more resistant to
all mounted, but I've had these guys die so many ways that I'm very
insistant in running them as 1 large lump. Just need the 25 points
elsewhere...

> >>
> >> 4x 6 irra LMI,jls,sh + 6 irrd LMI,jls + 12 irrd LMI,ipw

> Wow, this is such a wrong view of the pilgrims. The configuration
Martin has
> here is pretty much the right one. You want these guys 2 elements
wide, 6 ranks
> deep. The only change I'd make is to upgrade the second rank to Irr
C (which
> you can do).

This is a very different approach than the one I currently take. I
used to run this for exactly the way you describe, but with today's
LB shooting reg LMI with stakes saftey infantry the pilgrims are
simply just some fluffy bunnies. They will never get off a charge
impetuously against my Nikephorians I can promise you. It is a non-
skirmishing, waver testing problem for a new player.

> And you've got the shooting factors all wrong. Bow against LMI is a
2, not a 3.

Oops!


> Disordered only adds a +1 (shielded but disordered) not a +2. And
frankly,
> these guys _aren't_ going to take shooting damage worth worrying
about because
> they present the equivalent of 24 figures on just 2 elements'
frontage.

Um... 24@2=48. Ambrose runs this number in my eye enough that I
remember it. Getting shot is what these guys don't want. Run up to
120p, get shot by LB at 24@2 for 2. An up 1 makes them tired on
contact.

I just think that while you can run this as advertised, I doubt
anyone of much less experience should try it. Non skirmishing LMI
just ask for trouble. But it does look cool to have a giant column
leading the way ;)


>
> That's the same reason they _don't_ evaporate in hand-to-hand. They
just count
> as too big a unit. Split off the IPW guys, though, and they will
start to
> evaporate.

If they get disordered, or hit in the flank, those IPW guys are now
doing the fighting.

Facing 6E 2HCW/JLS/sh in a charge/charge situation, they 1 element
frontage for each is 5@7 vs 5@6. The pilgrims will take 2 CPF from a
2E frontage fight, doubled to 4, plus the charge plus impetuous.
They need to roll up or loose. They are too big to explode, so they
will in the next turn or two rout and force many wavers from the
follow on troops.


> >> 12 irrc LI,b,sh

> What?? Shielded light infantry with bow is one of the best
skirmishing troop
> types you can possibly buy. It's almost never a mistake to buy
them, and on
> this list you want to buy all you can get.

What can the shield provide them? I do not want HTH in any form
here, so I remain in skirmish and evade unless fighting mounted. I
want the enemy to commit mounted to my LI, and I want my LI to shoot
them twice then rout so the enemy will pursue into my charge range.
They will loose to LI JLS/sh, the sh doesn't work if shooting unlike
S/sh, and it is points better used to give "C" upgrades elsewhere.
Just my opinion.

This army wants to come to grips quicker not dance. The more it
dances, the less favorable the close order will find the matchups.
Push forward, push forward, push forward, and let the devil take the
hindmost.

Here is the rub. The minute the HC get near something they will be
forced to charge. The more skirmishing this army does, the more
likely the enemy will ease something within charge range of the HC
and force it. The HC can't hunker too far back, as they are the
means by which the infantry remain supported and the general's banner
must do it's part. Certainly we want the general to have nearby
friends. All in all, this army doesn't fight that deep. When the
enemy starts shooting up the LI, you want it to pop back (transport)
behind the entire line. If the LI has any staying power it will
hamper your own foot as much as the enemy; a smart enemy will take
advantage of such a situation.


>
> > Pick up the Danish crusaders as 2x4E IrgC LHI/LMI 2HCW/sh JLS/sh.
> > These guys will counter elephants as long as you keep them out of
> > shooting zones or from under cavalry hooves. They can clear woods,
> > kill elephants quick, and basically provide you with a
counterpunch
> > to those things that might come at your close order infantry.
>
> Hmm, a unit that's brittle, hard to get impetuous, and expensive.
Thanks, but I
> think I'll pass. Anything these guys can do, the pilgrims can do
better. Unless
> you're playing 2000 points don't buy these guys.

Well it is problematic being "C" for sure, so I keep them near the
banner and supported. They do tend to detonate, but they also rip
elephants a new one in short order. The pilgrims just present C3
problems IMO, and nothing says goodby to a plan like seeing the
pilgrims go on autopilot before your mounted are in place to support
it. They just won't be able to act in a supporting roll because of
the "A" front. I like small lurker 2HCW units run in 4E columns 1E
wide. Now if I could get the pilgrims with 2HCW, then hell yea! JLS
and SA don't have the hitting power for a second punch lurker.

>
>
> -Mark Stone

Excellent dialogue Mark.

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Wanax Andron"
<spocksleftball@y...> wrote:

> Absolutely as per your scenario. But look at my scenario above.
It
> is classic to run something onto the LTS then let the mounted
pound
> in. I feel certain I could kill this unit with 1x6E LMI 2HCW/sh
> JLS/sh and 1x2E IrgB SHK L/sh. First the LMI does 4@5 and 2@5 for
24
> per element frontage!

My appologies. I'm so used to running close order I factored as
such. This above should be 3@5 and 2@5 for 20 not 24 as noted.
Oops! Still the LMI will do 2 to 1 fatigues.


Wanax

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 4/14/2004 1:48:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
spocksleftball@... writes:

> So not unusual someone disagrees with me. This is good, as again it
> demonstrates that a single list can generate a multitude of answers. >>

That is soooo right, Boyd. I was so pleased to see a response from both you and
Mark as it gave the reader multiple perspectives, and more importantly, it
ensures listeners won't think there is ever one answer to how do I take/use this
troop/army?

>
> Well first I must say I run this army at 1200 points, so I would
> never pick up the HK to begin with. At lower points to split an army
> into 2 or more commands makes any one command brittle. 14 units now
> is 6 and 8 or 7 each lets say. Now to take out the entire army for
> the win I expend everything but the LI and LC into the 8 unit command
> and kill 3 units. Now the entire army is in retreat. I just don't
> see an upside to splitting a self motivated army.>>

How about splitting it 1 and 13? I typically have 3 generals in my 1200 point
knight armies and often have 1 unit commands. The benefits are many... lol

> >
> > Oh, and the general will also make this unit less likely to roll
> down at
> > contact; another important benefit.
>
> Now this is true, since any down roll with the HC is going to usually
> be very very bad. >>

Mathematically, recovering the first down one is much, much bigger a deal than
90% of Warrior players realize. One of the many subtleties that attracted me to
the game engine in the first place.

By the way, if fighting disordered MI, Sh with MI no Sh in the rear rank, you
are still fighting against shielded troops. See 9.41

>
>
> > >> 12 irrc LI,b,sh
>
> > What?? Shielded light infantry with bow is one of the best
> skirmishing troop
> > types you can possibly buy. It's almost never a mistake to buy
> them, and on
> > this list you want to buy all you can get.
>
> What can the shield provide them? >>

If you pass the waver, you won't rout to most mounted. Without the shield, you
do. I use 10E Irr D LI B 1/2 Sh units all the time and beat a lot more mounted
units by tying them up with the LI first - let alone the number of times I shoot
something into disorder and then charge it impetuously...lol Great troop type.

>
> Excellent dialogue Mark.>>

And Boyd - thanks to both of you.

J

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, JonCleaves@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 4/14/2004 1:48:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
spocksleftball@y... writes:

> How about splitting it 1 and 13? I typically have 3 generals in my
1200 point knight armies and often have 1 unit commands. The
benefits are many... lol

I run Subs with regular armies to give me the impetuous charge option
such as with my Nikephorians. When I do this I do run them as 1 unit
commands, but for irregular armies the prompting is either needed by
many or none.

With a large number of irreg A troops, you only need prompting for
second charges from the "C" troops or making units march. I find
these are limited needs handled by the CNC usuaally. Rarely do I
want the "C" troops to charge anyway since they are questionable in
HTH across the board, and any marching is minimal.

When I feel I will need willingness to get a charge off from a "C"
unit, I typically get the CNC's banner moving forward within 240
paces of the enemy and something on each flank. Exactly how I hunt
elephants with the Danish LHI. The Danes never need a second charge,
as they either evaporate in victory or defeat :)

> By the way, if fighting disordered MI, Sh with MI no Sh in the rear
rank, you are still fighting against shielded troops. See 9.41

yep, keep forgeting.

>
> > > >> 12 irrc LI,b,sh
> >
> > > What?? Shielded light infantry with bow is one of the best
> > skirmishing troop
> > > types you can possibly buy. It's almost never a mistake to buy
> > them, and on
> > > this list you want to buy all you can get.
> >
> > What can the shield provide them? >>
>
> If you pass the waver, you won't rout to most mounted. Without the
shield, you do.

If you don't rout, then chances are in the next bound the enemy will
bring up enough support to keep you from routing him via charge in
turn, and typically it will be something to cancel or intercept your
own mounted charge. By the LI holding fast, my options now become
narrowed to me charging my HC through my LI disordering both in order
to catch the enemy flatfooted; add to this the fact that the enemy
mounted is still dishing out casualties to your LI and so your HC may
not do enough to rout him. It makes for a weak point in the line
when now your HC are tired and disordered and fighting in HTH with
his mounted who are only tired and your rally back LI are blocking
you from sending in more reenforcements without also disording them!
In my experience, I want the LI to shoot x2 (prep and support), fight
the mounted, rout, then recover behind the MI. In this way the enemy
mounted will be drawn at least an additional 80 paces beyond his
lines. If given the enemy mounted started at 81 paces away and 40
paces beyond the nearest support unit, this means his mounted
purusers are hanging in the breeze 201 paces from help...Only more
mounted will save him, and unless SHK I am more than willing to send
in as many HC rockets as he is :)

5@7 vs HC is 5 CPF
5@5 vs EHK is 3 CPF
5@4 vs SHK is 2 CPF

In any scenario the HC will match up to tired and disordered. Only
SHK can avoid disorder on even rolls, but will still be tired. An
uproll from the "A" will turn the above:

up 1 means up 3 vs HC is 10 CPF, vs HK/EHK is 6 CPF, vs SHK is 3 CPF.


Dangerous yes, but calculatingly so. Odds favor 1 in 3 of my HC will
roll up. More dangerous from my way of playing to get trapped beyond
or behind my own LI and loosing the ability to disorder and tire a
more expensive enemy mounted unit.


Wanax

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 4/14/2004 3:16:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
spocksleftball@... writes:

> I run Subs with regular armies to give me the impetuous charge option
> such as with my Nikephorians. When I do this I do run them as 1 unit
> commands, but for irregular armies the prompting is either
> needed by
> many or none>>

I do not run 1 unit commands for the prompts - I run them for staff moves....