Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

Hey all.

I have mentioned several times the First Crusade army that I
retooled for Warrior. Well the extra painting and rebasing is
done. I have been crunching numbers to come up with a decent OB and
have been involved with email exchanges with a couple of you here on
the board. To get more opinions before I trot this monster out I
have decided to post it here for review as well.

Don't pull and punches. give your opinions and suggestions for
tactics, changes, etc.

Here we go:

1500 pnt Holy Warrior list 12 "First Crusade"

1 cnc +2 irrb HK,l,sh + 3 irrb HC,l,sh

1 sg + 2 irrb Hk,l,sh + 3 irrb Hc,l,sh

(I just wish there was a provision to allow an irrA element in these
general units)

2x 3 irra Hk,l,sh + 3 irrb Hk,l,sh

6 irra Hc,l,sh + 6 irrb Hc,l,sh

2x 4 regc LC,jls,b,sh

16 irrc MI,lts,sh + 16 irrd MI,cb

2x 16 irrc MI,jls,sh + 16 irrd MI,jls,b

4x 6 irra LMI,jls,sh + 6 irrd LMI,jls + 12 irrd LMI,ipw

2x 12 irrd LI,b,sh/ b

12 irrc LI,b,sh

Units-17 Scouting-27

Thoughts?

Martin
who is probably cuting his own throat here as he will probably be
fielding this list against a couple of folks on this forum.

Martin, as a rabid first crusader, I can say I've run this exact
derivitive you've outlined below. I'll make a few points based upon
my experiences:

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Martin" <mwolverton@h...> wrote:
> Hey all.
> Don't pull and punches. give your opinions and suggestions for
> tactics, changes, etc.

Not sure I know how to do this :)

>
> Here we go:
>
> 1500 pnt Holy Warrior list 12 "First Crusade"
>
> 1 cnc +2 irrb HK,l,sh + 3 irrb HC,l,sh
>
> 1 sg + 2 irrb Hk,l,sh + 3 irrb Hc,l,sh

Unless you plan on prompting your close order to charge a second
time, the subgeneral is a waste of points. You have automatic
charging knights which a subgeneral cannot hold back anyway. Also as
a unit he is not reliable to intercept routers other than LI and "E"
troops, so again of little value. I suggest spending the points on
other units noted below.

This is not an army of manuver, so you need to forget prompting
marches in such numbers that the CNC alone can't handle it. You will
find that this is a set/launch/forget army with little dancing. I
usually run at the enemy and come to grips as soon as possible
otherwise the enemy will get nice matchups on your MI JLS/sh and you
can forget that flank. The key to victory is going to be to seize
the initiative and maintain it. A subgeneral will not make this
happen here.

>
> (I just wish there was a provision to allow an irrA element in
these
> general units)

Why not? On page 4 "Generals' elements that are port of a body of
troops similarly armed count toward any franctional ratios listed for
that particular troop type."

You list allows a fraction "1/2" to upgrade to "A".

>
> 2x 3 irra Hk,l,sh + 3 irrb Hk,l,sh

These are good units. In modern terms this is 2x2E. Rockets of
death :)

These guys usually win or fail on impact, but when they win they will
take damage at such a fast rate that they will more than likely
rout/explode or exhaust outside of 120 paces of anything else. Like
all impetuous lance they hit most things with 5@7. The "A" means
about 1/3 of the time you go to the "more" table. Don't count of
this. Plan as if it won't happen ever, then be happy when it does.

>
> 6 irra Hc,l,sh + 6 irrb Hc,l,sh

Use some of the subgeneral's points to split this into 2 units. Here
it is just a big fat shooting target for enemy archers. Once tired
(from being shot to peices before getting a charge off) they will not
be worth the points paid for them. The margin for resistance to
shooting in HC is not break between 6 and 12 figures. The break is
at 18 figures. 16@1 =24 or 2 fatigues to this unit, but to 2x2E that
is 8@1=12 or 2 fatigues per. Thus you have no advantage in
maintaining a larger unit since the break in shooting pays no
dividends. On the contrary the two little units get to hit with
higher factors 5@7 each as opposed to 9@7 for both, and they get to
roll twice which ups your odds of an up roll with the "A".

>
> 2x 4 regc LC,jls,b,sh

These guys will win the game for you. Learn to use them well. Of
all things, 2E units of Reg LC B are my favorite. They will hold a
flank long enough for the HC to win the flank, they will hold off a
line of infantry for the duration, and they will absorb all 14 CPF
from shooting away from your knights, trot back to recover and wait
out the game. They go anywhere a 1E wide gap can be found, and they
are just so cute :)


>
> 16 irrc MI,lts,sh + 16 irrd MI,cb

I run this configuration as 16 LTS and 8 B, thus I get 2 ranks of
LTS. One rank of LTS backed by CB will not slow anyone's charge
against it. The CB have crappy factors against almost everyone, the
LTS will end up standing with 4@1 more than likely, and frankly
unless you can avoid enemy elephants and SHK by miracle this is the
unit that will loose you the game. Be very selective with it.

>
> 2x 16 irrc MI,jls,sh + 16 irrd MI,jls,b

From experience I can say these will either get shot halted over and
over and over until you will be forced to waver, or they will get
slammed on on end by Rg LMI who will stick and allow enemy kniggits
to pound in on the next bound and sweep them away; so they will not
be able to support the target unit above. Better to run this as a
mega 12E unit with your required 2E of CB in the center of the second
rank and the B/J second rankers to either side. Upgrade the front
rank to HI to resist shooting and combat better and downgrade most
to "D". This just occupies space absorbs all missile fire within the
tri-state area, and can shoot up anything that gets too close. It
will not survive without you being aggressive elsewhere with your HC,
but will be buy time and give you fun doing it.

>
> 4x 6 irra LMI,jls,sh + 6 irrd LMI,jls + 12 irrd LMI,ipw

I have run this peasant configuration many times. The IPW guys only
count out to the forth rank as 1/2 figs, so this block will remain 2E
wide and 4 deep always. It cannot skirmish, so a juicy target for
enemy archers starting at @3 unless disordered then @5. It will
waver as an egar D morale troop, so it will probably shake first
test. Frankly in attacking it will scream in, roll up 4 forcing
whatever it can find to recoil disordered, but it then will take such
damage as to evaporate before it can finish the job forcing those
units trying to support it to test waver.

Better IMO to run the IPW guys as a separate unit as "E" just to bulk
up the command number of units and set them in the back or in a wood
out of the way to keep LC from flanking around. I prefer to run the
IrrgA/D LMI with B/sh B, but you could run them with JLS/sh JLS also
very well. Now they can skirmish! This looks weak, will be able to
charge rather than waver from being shot up, and will at least get
off 2 good shots if played right (in brush or supported well). A
great lure for elephants and LC.

>
> 2x 12 irrd LI,b,sh/ b

Can't beat that with a stick! Well you can, but for the money these
guys work will. Plan on 2 shots per, then intercept them with your
steady close order to stop the rout :)

>
> 12 irrc LI,b,sh

Not worth the points. Scrap this unit.


Pick up the Danish crusaders as 2x4E IrgC LHI/LMI 2HCW/sh JLS/sh.
These guys will counter elephants as long as you keep them out of
shooting zones or from under cavalry hooves. They can clear woods,
kill elephants quick, and basically provide you with a counterpunch
to those things that might come at your close order infantry.

> Units-17 Scouting-27
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Martin
> who is probably cuting his own throat here as he will probably be
> fielding this list against a couple of folks on this forum.

Not hardly. It has been my experience that people just don't pay
that much attention to what "you" (meaning me) are doing. :)

Wanax

[Todd Schneider]

OK, this is the newbie in me talking, so feel more than free to point out
where I am wrong:



I don’t get this unit. Your four elements of LTS, and 4 Elements of CB.

Your crossbowmen can’t fire from the third and fourth rank, can they? That
means they aren’t eligible to shoot, so they go lower on the priority list
for those oppoenents



If you stick the CB guys in front, so they can shoot, you risk being
charged. At least, my Impression is a Knight would rather charge unshielded
crossbowmen rather than Shielded LTS guys.

If you stagger the ranks, first LTS, next CB, 3rd LTS, 4th CB, your getting
the worst of both worlds…if charged you’ll only count 8 figs (or 4 if he
hits you on one corner) and 8@1 (probably) on the support shot.



The Only (at least to me) nice thing about this unit is that its 24 figs for
CPF, which means no ones going to be doing that much harm to it shooting
wise.



However, L Charging, especially if the CB are up front, would be 5@9 without
being impetuous, which is 48 and 2CPF, so you’d be recoiling disordered.
Even if the support shooting does 1, it’s 5@8, going impetuous would make it
5@more... With the LTS Up front with a rank of CB behind It would be 5@7,
or 5@6 (depending on the support shot) so you would still be recoiling.



Add to the fact it’s Irr, and you don’t maneuver as well…I think against a
guy who knows how to run Knights this unit is more of a liability they way
it’s built now…but that’s just me, and I run Romans, so what do I know about
Knights? :-)





Todd





>
> 16 irrc MI,lts,sh + 16 irrd MI,cb

I run this configuration as 16 LTS and 8 B, thus I get 2 ranks of
LTS. One rank of LTS backed by CB will not slow anyone's charge
against it. The CB have crappy factors against almost everyone, the
LTS will end up standing with 4@1 more than likely, and frankly
unless you can avoid enemy elephants and SHK by miracle this is the
unit that will loose you the game. Be very selective with it.






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 4/14/2004 9:42:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
thresh1642@... writes:

> If you stick the CB guys in front, so they can shoot, you risk being
> charged. At least, my Impression is a Knight would rather
> charge unshielded
> crossbowmen rather than Shielded LTS guys.>>

If you are forced to play such a unit - which i am with my Chinese - you
exchange ranks when the Knights get too close, switching from being a shooter
with 2 ranks of CB in front to a shielded unit with two ranks of LTS.

J

This works as long as you aren't forced to try it as a counter, then
fail :)



--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, JonCleaves@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 4/14/2004 9:42:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
thresh1642@s... writes:
>
> > If you stick the CB guys in front, so they can shoot, you risk
being
> > charged. At least, my Impression is a Knight would rather
> > charge unshielded
> > crossbowmen rather than Shielded LTS guys.>>
>
> If you are forced to play such a unit - which i am with my Chinese -
you exchange ranks when the Knights get too close, switching from
being a shooter with 2 ranks of CB in front to a shielded unit with
two ranks of LTS.
>
> J

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 4/14/2004 10:11:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
spocksleftball@... writes:

> This works as long as you aren't forced to try it as a
> counter, then
> fail >>

As the Chinese version of this unit is D class, I would never attempt it as a
counter...lol

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Todd Schneider"
<thresh1642@s...> wrote:
> OK, this is the newbie in me talking, so feel more than free to
point out
> where I am wrong:
>
>
>
> I don't get this unit. Your four elements of LTS, and 4 Elements
of CB.
>
> Your crossbowmen can't fire from the third and fourth rank, can
they? That
> means they aren't eligible to shoot, so they go lower on the
priority list
> for those oppoenents

True, but he I think is running this as 1 rank LTS backed by 1 rank
of CB.

>
>
>
> If you stick the CB guys in front, so they can shoot, you risk being
> charged. At least, my Impression is a Knight would rather charge
unshielded
> crossbowmen rather than Shielded LTS guys.

And as a single rank of LTS it hangs a sign out that says "everyone
charge here".

>
> If you stagger the ranks, first LTS, next CB, 3rd LTS, 4th CB, your
getting
> the worst of both worlds…

Yes this would be foolish. Don't forget in this configuration he
counts as shieldless to shooting also so b hit @5.

>
>
>
> The Only (at least to me) nice thing about this unit is that its 24
figs for
> CPF, which means no ones going to be doing that much harm to it
shooting
> wise.

You would be surprized at how easy some of these shooting army can
halt close order 6E units with shooting. 9@4, 10@3, 12@2, 16@1 all
give 1 CPF, and each of these can be dished by a single unit. Add
another like unit and now you have 18@4, 20@3, 24@2 and so on. It is
not unusual to get 24 RgD LMI shooting @2 on this unit. That is an
even or any unroll to halt them from a single unit. 24@2 up 2
disorders them as well. This is why IMO most close order armies have
trouble with armies small units against shooting.

<snip>

Mounted would likely just blow through a single rank of LTS barring
any downroll. An uproll of 1 for the mounted means 1 CPF and a
recoil disordered. Toasted close order.


> Todd

Martin

Excuse my ignorance (and probabably dodgy mathematics) but how do you
get your list to 1500 points - I can only get it to 1433 with the 17
units listed (but may be missing something obvious.

Regards

Edward
--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Martin" <mwolverton@h...> wrote:
> Hey all.
>
> [SNIP]
> 1500 pnt Holy Warrior list 12 "First Crusade"
>
> 1 cnc +2 irrb HK,l,sh + 3 irrb HC,l,sh
>
> 1 sg + 2 irrb Hk,l,sh + 3 irrb Hc,l,sh
>
> (I just wish there was a provision to allow an irrA element in
these
> general units)
>
> 2x 3 irra Hk,l,sh + 3 irrb Hk,l,sh
>
> 6 irra Hc,l,sh + 6 irrb Hc,l,sh
>
> 2x 4 regc LC,jls,b,sh
>
> 16 irrc MI,lts,sh + 16 irrd MI,cb
>
> 2x 16 irrc MI,jls,sh + 16 irrd MI,jls,b
>
> 4x 6 irra LMI,jls,sh + 6 irrd LMI,jls + 12 irrd LMI,ipw
>
> 2x 12 irrd LI,b,sh/ b
>
> 12 irrc LI,b,sh
>
> Units-17 Scouting-27
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Martin
> who is probably cuting his own throat here as he will probably be
> fielding this list against a couple of folks on this forum.