Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[joncleaves]

Please tell me, Pat, et al, if this answers the question:

6.821 Arrivals

To enter the table, the player rolls a d6 for the body (or command in a flank
march) in the Events Phase of the bound. On a 5 or 6, the body (command)
enters that bound. Troops that arrive must enter the table by an approach,
march or charge move that bound. They enter the table measuring movement
from the table edge.
Troops that cannot fit completely onto the table during approaches or
after charges may remain partially on the table until hand-to-hand combat is
resolved. They must declare a charge against a legal target if one exists.
They must make any 'forward-moving' combat results move (follow-up, pursuit,
break-through) available to them. They may only remain partially on the
table if:
· They may approach no further due to the proximity of enemy troops and/or
terrain and have no legal charge target or they are in hand-to-hand contact
and did not recoil.
· They did not become broken, shaken or subject to retreat orders.
· They are not expendables.
Troops unable to arrive due to the proximity of enemy bodies, terrain or the
size of the area in which they may legally enter remain off table and must
enter as soon as entry becomes possible without the need to re-roll for
arrival. Bodies that remain off-table and must enter in any phase (approach,
march, charge) and in any formation that gets the most units onto the table
in the least number of bounds. A player may not, for example, choose not to
move a unit on in a given approach, march or charge phase if that decision
does not permit bringing the bodies on the table in as few bounds as possible.

6.822 Flank Marches Entering the Table

Flank marching troops abide by all the rules that apply to any arriving
troops. Rule 14.45 describes the area of the table in which flank marching
troops enter and other rules specific to flank marches.

[Patrick Byrne]

Jon,
When flank marchers come on the board, can each unit start "at the table
edge" even if they start from the same point of the board?

For Example, 2 cav units are coming on board from a flank march. The table
is pretty packed on that side with units and stuff so all three units must
come on the board from 1 spot (this is slightly exaggurated for the
question). The first horse starts and approaches 160p. Does the second
horse also start at the table edge and approach 160p? or is his move reduced
by the length of the first body in front of him?

We looked for the supporting text saying that the units can come on the board
in the same spot but that the move is reduced, but was unable to find any.
-PB

[Patrick Byrne]

Jon,
I could not find the answer below. The problem arose from two units starting in
the same spot at the table edge and both units getting the same distance
approach
move.

With this same question, you could also substitute "march" for the word
"approach"
above.
-PB

JonCleaves@... wrote:

> Please tell me, Pat, et al, if this answers the question:
>
> 6.821 Arrivals
>
> To enter the table, the player rolls a d6 for the body (or command in a flank
> march) in the Events Phase of the bound. On a 5 or 6, the body (command)
> enters that bound. Troops that arrive must enter the table by an approach,
> march or charge move that bound. They enter the table measuring movement
> from the table edge.
> Troops that cannot fit completely onto the table during approaches or
> after charges may remain partially on the table until hand-to-hand combat is
> resolved. They must declare a charge against a legal target if one exists.
> They must make any 'forward-moving' combat results move (follow-up, pursuit,
> break-through) available to them. They may only remain partially on the
> table if:
> · They may approach no further due to the proximity of enemy troops and/or
> terrain and have no legal charge target or they are in hand-to-hand contact
> and did not recoil.
> · They did not become broken, shaken or subject to retreat orders.
> · They are not expendables.
> Troops unable to arrive due to the proximity of enemy bodies, terrain or the
> size of the area in which they may legally enter remain off table and must
> enter as soon as entry becomes possible without the need to re-roll for
> arrival. Bodies that remain off-table and must enter in any phase (approach,
> march, charge) and in any formation that gets the most units onto the table
> in the least number of bounds. A player may not, for example, choose not to
> move a unit on in a given approach, march or charge phase if that decision
> does not permit bringing the bodies on the table in as few bounds as possible.
>
> 6.822 Flank Marches Entering the Table
>
> Flank marching troops abide by all the rules that apply to any arriving
> troops. Rule 14.45 describes the area of the table in which flank marching
> troops enter and other rules specific to flank marches.
>
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>
>
>
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[joncleaves]

Hey, Don, I' have no problem making that 'change'. The question will be list
rule or not.

But I feel it important to point out that I would make it because the intent
of the rule is to show historical differnences between shock and missile
cavalry and NOT because a player would find a particular army 'worthless'
because of it. If I felt that Japanese cav was primarily skirmishing cav, I
would not 'change' the rule.

The standard for looking at an issue will never be tournament performance of
an army in open (meaning non-historical opponent) competition.

[Don Coon]

I received a rude shock in one of our games yesterday. My Heian Dynasty
Japanese (85% Irr B with about 15% trash Irr D) army is armed almost
entirely with 2HCW+B. I was informed (correctly per 4.51 and 2.23) that
none of my troops under attack orders can declare unprompted frontal charges
against steady opponents! My whole army counts as missile troops. This
feels wrong. I have all these cool 6 foot swords and naginatas, and because
I have bows too, I have to be prompted?!? Tastes bad. 2HCW w/o Bow can
charge unprompted, but add the Bow and now I have to be prompted. My
Japanese army just went in the toilet. It is all Irregular so prompting
multiple bodies in a bound is very problematic. Add to that fact, that to
be effective, the CINC, plus Subgens pretty much have to fight. My LHI -
2HCW+B dude are useless as woods troops now because irregular bodies out of
sight are a minimum of 7 prompt mimutes each. That is IF my CINC (or Sub)
is within 6 barkers and not paying a distance 2 (or more) minute penalty and
I roll a 2.

I checked and this is not a new rule. It is very clearly spelled out in 7th
too. I fell I have wasted my time painting these Japanese as they appear
severly hamstrung.

My EIR Roman auxilla that get 1/4 front rank S also can not charge
unprompted. I add the slings and lose the charge. Feels wrong.

Is there any hope that 2.23 would be reworded to say "Missile Troops: bodies
with ONLY B,LB,CB,S or SS in their front rank..." I know this would be a
rule change and you might not consider it at this late date. This is how we
have played for the last 3 years. I do not know if you count that as
playtesting or not, but we have lots of games under our belts where dual
armed troops got the free attack charge to no ill effect on game play.

I know this rule has been in place for a long time, but speaking just for
our N Texas group, we only became aware of this rule and its implications
very recently. My personal opinion is that it is a bad rule.

Don

[joncleaves]

I meant I have not decided to change the wording of the base rule or just
make an exception to it in certain lists. Need time to think.

[joncleaves]

Don, it is your basement.

[Don Coon]

> Hey, Don, I' have no problem making that 'change'. The question will be
list
> rule or not.

I do not under stand what you mean by list rule or not. Your first sentance
seems to say, you agree with my wording and will change 2.23, and your
second sentance seems to say, the lists themselves will exempt cetain troops
from "missile troop" status.

> But I feel it important to point out that I would make it because the
intent
> of the rule is to show historical differnences between shock and missile
> cavalry and NOT because a player would find a particular army 'worthless'
> because of it. If I felt that Japanese cav was primarily skirmishing cav,
I
> would not 'change' the rule.

Cool. Remember it is not just the Cav, but all of the foot too.

> The standard for looking at an issue will never be tournament performance
of
> an army in open (meaning non-historical opponent) competition.

A well put answere. I think I came off poorly, because I had put so much
time into the army (BTW I love all things Japanese), and did not do it to be
a killer tourny army, but it looked viable to me, and I felt personally
cheated. Not by you or the game, just cheated. The Samurai just did not
feel right.

Don

[Don Coon]

> I meant I have not decided to change the wording of the base rule or just
> make an exception to it in certain lists. Need time to think.

Got it. Is it ok in the time being for me to get a free "Attack" order
charge with my Samurai?

Don

[joncleaves]

I can't support telling you off the cuff that the samurai can have their own
special attack orders. I am going on Vacation! I will mess with this and
all other issues AFTER i get back.

Play with samurai special attack orders in your own home all you want until
then.

[Don Coon]

> Don, it is your basement.

w/o any supporting text I have no idea what question you are answering.
Also, we want to play like the rest of the world plays.

Don

[scott holder]

Got it. Is it ok in the time being for me to get a free "Attack" order
charge with my Samurai?

>No.

[scott holder]

I can't support telling you off the cuff that the samurai can have their own
special attack orders. I am going on Vacation! I will mess with this and
all other issues AFTER i get back.

Play with samurai special attack orders in your own home all you want until
then.

>Let me reiterate: no special attack order for one army. At least at
anything I umpire. If anyone wants to see how the Japanese list will
eventually evolve, go pull a back issue of Spearpoint with an article penned
by the late Mike McGinnis. Jevon Garrett will be doing the finishing touches
on that list once it hits the publication cycle (2003 at the earliest).

Scott
List Ho

Don,

And now you know why I stopped using Samurai.

Rule one. Shoot the buggers to disorder, then charge!
Rule two. Lots(!) of sub generals

Cheers

Steve


--- In WarriorRules@y..., "DONALD COON" <jendon@f...> wrote:
> I received a rude shock in one of our games yesterday. My Heian
Dynasty
> Japanese (85% Irr B with about 15% trash Irr D) army is armed almost
> entirely with 2HCW+B. I was informed (correctly per 4.51 and 2.23)
that
> none of my troops under attack orders can declare unprompted
frontal charges
> against steady opponents! My whole army counts as missile troops.
This
> feels wrong. I have all these cool 6 foot swords and naginatas,
and because
> I have bows too, I have to be prompted?!? Tastes bad. 2HCW w/o
Bow can
> charge unprompted, but add the Bow and now I have to be prompted.
My
> Japanese army just went in the toilet. It is all Irregular so
prompting
> multiple bodies in a bound is very problematic. Add to that fact,
that to
> be effective, the CINC, plus Subgens pretty much have to fight. My
LHI -
> 2HCW+B dude are useless as woods troops now because irregular
bodies out of
> sight are a minimum of 7 prompt mimutes each. That is IF my CINC
(or Sub)
> is within 6 barkers and not paying a distance 2 (or more) minute
penalty and
> I roll a 2.
>
> I checked and this is not a new rule. It is very clearly spelled
out in 7th
> too. I fell I have wasted my time painting these Japanese as they
appear
> severly hamstrung.
>
> My EIR Roman auxilla that get 1/4 front rank S also can not charge
> unprompted. I add the slings and lose the charge. Feels wrong.
>
> Is there any hope that 2.23 would be reworded to say "Missile
Troops: bodies
> with ONLY B,LB,CB,S or SS in their front rank..." I know this
would be a
> rule change and you might not consider it at this late date. This
is how we
> have played for the last 3 years. I do not know if you count that
as
> playtesting or not, but we have lots of games under our belts where
dual
> armed troops got the free attack charge to no ill effect on game
play.
>
> I know this rule has been in place for a long time, but speaking
just for
> our N Texas group, we only became aware of this rule and its
implications
> very recently. My personal opinion is that it is a bad rule.
>
> Don

[Patrick Byrne]

jees, I actually thought that the Japanese were fanatic. Now I know that the
history books are wrong and they only charged when they had the advantage!
(since the enemy lost cohesion)
-PB

Steve Honeyman wrote:

> Don,
>
> And now you know why I stopped using Samurai.
>
> Rule one. Shoot the buggers to disorder, then charge!
> Rule two. Lots(!) of sub generals
>
> Cheers
>
> Steve
>
> --- In WarriorRules@y..., "DONALD COON" <jendon@f...> wrote:
> > I received a rude shock in one of our games yesterday. My Heian
> Dynasty
> > Japanese (85% Irr B with about 15% trash Irr D) army is armed almost
> > entirely with 2HCW+B. I was informed (correctly per 4.51 and 2.23)
> that
> > none of my troops under attack orders can declare unprompted
> frontal charges
> > against steady opponents! My whole army counts as missile troops.
> This
> > feels wrong. I have all these cool 6 foot swords and naginatas,
> and because
> > I have bows too, I have to be prompted?!? Tastes bad. 2HCW w/o
> Bow can
> > charge unprompted, but add the Bow and now I have to be prompted.
> My
> > Japanese army just went in the toilet. It is all Irregular so
> prompting
> > multiple bodies in a bound is very problematic. Add to that fact,
> that to
> > be effective, the CINC, plus Subgens pretty much have to fight. My
> LHI -
> > 2HCW+B dude are useless as woods troops now because irregular
> bodies out of
> > sight are a minimum of 7 prompt mimutes each. That is IF my CINC
> (or Sub)
> > is within 6 barkers and not paying a distance 2 (or more) minute
> penalty and
> > I roll a 2.
> >
> > I checked and this is not a new rule. It is very clearly spelled
> out in 7th
> > too. I fell I have wasted my time painting these Japanese as they
> appear
> > severly hamstrung.
> >
> > My EIR Roman auxilla that get 1/4 front rank S also can not charge
> > unprompted. I add the slings and lose the charge. Feels wrong.
> >
> > Is there any hope that 2.23 would be reworded to say "Missile
> Troops: bodies
> > with ONLY B,LB,CB,S or SS in their front rank..." I know this
> would be a
> > rule change and you might not consider it at this late date. This
> is how we
> > have played for the last 3 years. I do not know if you count that
> as
> > playtesting or not, but we have lots of games under our belts where
> dual
> > armed troops got the free attack charge to no ill effect on game
> play.
> >
> > I know this rule has been in place for a long time, but speaking
> just for
> > our N Texas group, we only became aware of this rule and its
> implications
> > very recently. My personal opinion is that it is a bad rule.
> >
> > Don
>
>
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>
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