Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

I am working on a Late Hoplite Greek(Spartan) army which is earlier than my
usual stuff and not covered by any of my old TOG lists. With Classical Warrior
some way away has anyone any ideas about composition?
I am building it at the moment based on DBM (which most people play around here
despite my efforts) but I imagine a Warrior army will require a few more
elements.
Thanks
Paul


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[scott holder]

Paul: I honestly don't know about this as yet. Build your army for that other
game and it should provide most of the basis for however a Warrior list will
finally look.

>>> PAUL.JACQ@... 02/02/03 09:52AM >>>
I am working on a Late Hoplite Greek(Spartan) army which is earlier than my
usual stuff and not covered by any of my old TOG lists. With Classical Warrior
some way away has anyone any ideas about composition?
I am building it at the moment based on DBM (which most people play around here
despite my efforts) but I imagine a Warrior army will require a few more
elements.
Thanks
Paul


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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I have decided to try my hand again at hoplites. Since both of my previous 7th
edition hoplite armies were terrible failures--play to survive and not win--I'm
thinking that it is something I'm doing wrong.

Thus I come to you, list members, for some advice on how to develop and game a
winning list.

Here are some problems I've encountered and need to overcome:

1. shieldless Cav are always a routing missile through my troops. It seems that
no matter how hard I try to keep them out of battle, they always end up routing
passed uneasy C hoplites.

2. how can I keep my hoplites easy when the supporting units are so fragile?

3. I've tried charging, charging impetouos (when irreg), standing to receive,
but none of these tactics wins against LMI J/sh impetouos. What can I do other
than stand on a hill to make the hoplites less disorderable?

4. What is the optimum close order unit size? I usually try to keep them in
blocks of 8 elements, but size and formation optimization seem to allude me.
two deep they get double hit (once per two bound period) and they break. 4 deep
they don't count enough figures to absorb punishment. Any thoughts?

5. What type of terrain makes for the securest flanks. With weak LI that will
be unsupported in most instances, how can one ensure flank comfort with the slow
plodding hoplites?

TIA

Wanax




Lord of the Meadehall of men! Aknowledged professional sack lounger. Creator
of semi-lifeforms in their millions. The good looking twin, though sinister in
thought and deed. He who would produce but for 7 years of inactivity punctuated
by frenzied finger touching. Smooth.

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[Don Coon]

I am trying Hoplites right now (painting them - will not play them for about
6 months). I will address your questions from a position of ZERO experience
with them, but with my early intent.

> I have decided to try my hand again at hoplites. Since both of my
previous 7th edition hoplite armies were terrible failures--play to survive
and not win--I'm thinking that it is something I'm doing wrong.
>
> Thus I come to you, list members, for some advice on how to develop and
game a winning list.
>
> Here are some problems I've encountered and need to overcome:
>
> 1. shieldless Cav are always a routing missile through my troops. It
seems that no matter how hard I try to keep them out of battle, they always
end up routing passed uneasy C hoplites.

First off here, I agree with the fragility of the cav. Since it is largely
regular, I intend to use MC JLS and SKIRMISH almost always. I will be able
to get to missile range due to my regularness. I will take as much LC as
possible and do the same. I will be using my cav as a screen and retreat
set up, and attempt to position them such that when that early game role is
over, they also can threaten the flanks of any enemy loose order troops
zeroing in on my hoplites. Keeping the hoplites willing should be fairly
straight forward as I just need to stay within 120p of each flank. Can do
this with the hordes of hoplites, and against terrain, the peltasts.

> 2. how can I keep my hoplites easy when the supporting units are so
fragile?

See above. Stay together, hold the line. Control terrain with peltasts.
Intersperse your Hoplites and Peltasts.
>
> 3. I've tried charging, charging impetouos (when irreg), standing to
receive, but none of these tactics wins against LMI J/sh impetouos. What
can I do other than stand on a hill to make the hoplites less disorderable?

The hoplites will fail against most Irr troops, thats a fact. I intend to
use them much as I do with EIR. They are a counter punching army. You will
have to give up units to hit with others. You get some B class, and will
have to use them properly located in the line to help pass the waver so you
can hit the losse order boys in bound 2 in the flank. You have the
advantage of mobility. Properly placed MC can hold off the loose order for
a turn. Even charging with the MC can sometimes work (you force a waver, if
they pass that you just need to stick to them. Charge from exactly 160p in
line with the Hoplites). If you can pin the loose order for just 1 turn in
HTH, you can bring up a HTH ending LTS charge. The impetuous enemy can also
be set up properly with a disposable LI unit. Give it up to the impetuous
enemy and rout back to the waiting hoplites. If he does not take the bait,
then just move the hoplites up into charge position. This take
coordination, as often the LI will be under forced recall due to the
proximity of the enemy foot (avoid this as much as possible with counters).
When he eventually sees the hoplites in position, he will have to charge the
LI, and you just stand and take it. This allows the hoplites to hit too.
The turn you want to hit wth the hoplites have the LI 40p from the enmy, and
the hoplites 80p away. Not sure about weather the Hoplites can charge from
here vs impetuous enemy as the hoplites are not the charge target so this
might not work.
>
> 4. What is the optimum close order unit size? I usually try to keep them
in blocks of 8 elements, but size and formation optimization seem to allude
me. two deep they get double hit (once per two bound period) and they
break. 4 deep they don't count enough figures to absorb punishment. Any
thoughts?

I run EIR, and MIR in 4E blocks. I intend to do the same with Hoplites.
Protects against a single body cav charge, and is still very mobile. Can
collapes into a very short column allowing it to fit into tighter spaces if
an impetuous foot foe exposes his flank.
>
> 5. What type of terrain makes for the securest flanks. With weak LI that
will be unsupported in most instances, how can one ensure flank comfort with
the slow plodding hoplites?

Woods. Slows down everything, and I disagree with your LI assessment. Reg
JLS,Sh LI is really good. You can hold woods with small LI units, and they
are great screens for the HI/MI LTS,Sh.

I agree with you. This appears to be a weak army. I am going to try it and
evolve a tactic that can succeed. Mostly it invloves proper spacing of
units both side to side and front to back. Unfortunatley your opponent will
not stand still and let you form up as you choose, but hey, thats one of the
fun things about this game.

I'm sorry for not snipping, but my browser now snips all or none for some
reason. Probably operator head space and timing.

I've found the cav to be so weak as that a 6E LI B unit can basically shoot it
out of the saddle in 1 bound prompting a charge or waver and have 11 or 12 CPF
for 2E unit. I just don't like this effect early in the game. Where I loose is
in waver tests.
The early screen with LC is essential as the hoplites will only move 480paces in
march moves on the first bound, so I agree on the LC aspect. Otherwise the
hoplites might be pinned to the baseline.

I thought about your idea for LI. I typically run my Norman HC behind LI
screens exactly as you say; ablative armor LI leave exposed and tired enemy
often. Then again, if the LI are not consumed the HC will be disordered for
charging through. The Close order infantry -2 for disorder is a show stopper
for hoplites IMO.

I'm not sure if LI (no book handy) can pass through close order infantry, but if
so that would be a nice way to lure mounted into the LTS by evasion. Just
working mentally on your idea, if the LI were on the front of the HI unit, can
it evade through the HI who would stand to receive the charge? If it causes
disorder, then in no way would I do this
I suspect it does.

Smaller hoplite blocks....hmm. Seems ahistorical and slow and fragile, but then
I know the larger blocks are just not working. IIUC, you are suggesting 4E
blocks in line. Wouldn't this present more difficulties in terms of missile
fire absorbtion? One of the nice things about 8E blocks is they basically
ignore missile fire. Just wondering if the manuverability is worth it. Also,
the single mounted charge into the smaller block will more likely disorder the
HI wouldn't it?

The problems I'm having with unease is on the flanks where the mounted need to
hide rather than support :)

I was toying with the idea of standing between steep hills and waiting. Let the
LI on the hills roll boulders The problem with this tactic is that it
surrenders the initiative fully to the enemy to set up any punch he wants.

As for peltast within the hoplite line, how do you keep from testing waver when
the enemy mounted charge the LMI? Again, I loose when I test wavers, so this is
critical to me. I've toyed with and thought long about staggering the LMI as a
checkerboard second line, but they tend to draw enemy mounted and don't perform
as advertised. I must be doing something wrong.

Thanks for the dialogue
Wanax

jjendon@... wrote:
I am trying Hoplites right now (painting them - will not play them for about
6 months). I will address your questions from a position of ZERO experience
with them, but with my early intent.

> I have decided to try my hand again at hoplites. Since both of my
previous 7th edition hoplite armies were terrible failures--play to survive
and not win--I'm thinking that it is something I'm doing wrong.
>
> Thus I come to you, list members, for some advice on how to develop and
game a winning list.
>
> Here are some problems I've encountered and need to overcome:
>
> 1. shieldless Cav are always a routing missile through my troops. It
seems that no matter how hard I try to keep them out of battle, they always
end up routing passed uneasy C hoplites.

First off here, I agree with the fragility of the cav. Since it is largely
regular, I intend to use MC JLS and SKIRMISH almost always. I will be able
to get to missile range due to my regularness. I will take as much LC as
possible and do the same. I will be using my cav as a screen and retreat
set up, and attempt to position them such that when that early game role is
over, they also can threaten the flanks of any enemy loose order troops
zeroing in on my hoplites. Keeping the hoplites willing should be fairly
straight forward as I just need to stay within 120p of each flank. Can do
this with the hordes of hoplites, and against terrain, the peltasts.

> 2. how can I keep my hoplites easy when the supporting units are so
fragile?

See above. Stay together, hold the line. Control terrain with peltasts.
Intersperse your Hoplites and Peltasts.
>
> 3. I've tried charging, charging impetouos (when irreg), standing to
receive, but none of these tactics wins against LMI J/sh impetouos. What
can I do other than stand on a hill to make the hoplites less disorderable?

The hoplites will fail against most Irr troops, thats a fact. I intend to
use them much as I do with EIR. They are a counter punching army. You will
have to give up units to hit with others. You get some B class, and will
have to use them properly located in the line to help pass the waver so you
can hit the losse order boys in bound 2 in the flank. You have the
advantage of mobility. Properly placed MC can hold off the loose order for
a turn. Even charging with the MC can sometimes work (you force a waver, if
they pass that you just need to stick to them. Charge from exactly 160p in
line with the Hoplites). If you can pin the loose order for just 1 turn in
HTH, you can bring up a HTH ending LTS charge. The impetuous enemy can also
be set up properly with a disposable LI unit. Give it up to the impetuous
enemy and rout back to the waiting hoplites. If he does not take the bait,
then just move the hoplites up into charge position. This take
coordination, as often the LI will be under forced recall due to the
proximity of the enemy foot (avoid this as much as possible with counters).
When he eventually sees the hoplites in position, he will have to charge the
LI, and you just stand and take it. This allows the hoplites to hit too.
The turn you want to hit wth the hoplites have the LI 40p from the enmy, and
the hoplites 80p away. Not sure about weather the Hoplites can charge from
here vs impetuous enemy as the hoplites are not the charge target so this
might not work.
>
> 4. What is the optimum close order unit size? I usually try to keep them
in blocks of 8 elements, but size and formation optimization seem to allude
me. two deep they get double hit (once per two bound period) and they
break. 4 deep they don't count enough figures to absorb punishment. Any
thoughts?

I run EIR, and MIR in 4E blocks. I intend to do the same with Hoplites.
Protects against a single body cav charge, and is still very mobile. Can
collapes into a very short column allowing it to fit into tighter spaces if
an impetuous foot foe exposes his flank.
>
> 5. What type of terrain makes for the securest flanks. With weak LI that
will be unsupported in most instances, how can one ensure flank comfort with
the slow plodding hoplites?

Woods. Slows down everything, and I disagree with your LI assessment. Reg
JLS,Sh LI is really good. You can hold woods with small LI units, and they
are great screens for the HI/MI LTS,Sh.

I agree with you. This appears to be a weak army. I am going to try it and
evolve a tactic that can succeed. Mostly it invloves proper spacing of
units both side to side and front to back. Unfortunatley your opponent will
not stand still and let you form up as you choose, but hey, thats one of the
fun things about this game.


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Lord of the Meadehall of men! Aknowledged professional sack lounger. Creator
of semi-lifeforms in their millions. The good looking twin, though sinister in
thought and deed. He who would produce but for 7 years of inactivity punctuated
by frenzied finger touching. Smooth.

---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>>>I just don't like this effect early in
the game. Where I loose is in waver tests.<<<

As I have been reminded many a time when playing Jon, you can't fail a waver
test you don't have to take.

It's one of the not so subtler naunces of the game I am trying to learn.

Todd

[scott holder]

As I have been reminded many a time when playing Jon, you can't fail a waver
test you don't have to take.
It's one of the not so subtler naunces of the game I am trying to learn.

>Most newcomers to the game tend to think that it's all about the mechanical
matchups of the charts. And while that's obviously a factor in the game, it's
not *the* overriding factor to the game.

>The game is all about waver testing. Look back at my commentary on the seven
games played against Ed and you'll see it was all about focusing at some point
in order to cause waver test(s) and then roll along (or not) from there.

>There are those of us who play a style of game that seemingly flies in the face
of this, ie., we'll take more waver tests than is probably recommended but
attempt to mitigate that with higher morale troops and tactics to minimise
potential unease. And we do this knowing full well the inherent risks but to
quote Scott McDonald "if you roll 1's in this game, you deserve to lose"

scott

[Ewan McNay]

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Holder, Scott"
<Scott.Holder@f...> wrote:
> >The game is all about waver testing. Look back at my commentary on
the seven games played against Ed and you'll see it was all
about focusing at some point in order to cause waver test(s) and then
roll along (or not) from there.
>
> >There are those of us who play a style of game that seemingly flies
in the face of this, ie., we'll take more waver tests than is probably
recommended but attempt to mitigate that with higher morale troops and
tactics to minimise potential unease. And we do this knowing full
well the inherent risks but to quote Scott McDonald "if you roll 1's
in this game, you deserve to lose"

I agree with all of Scott's comments here. I am, though, a *strong*
advocate of the thought process which says 'if I don't roll a die, it
can't get a 1'. Several of my more successful armies have been
designed around taking minimal waver tests. Taking them for routing
friends is not avoidable by army design, but I don't worry about it -
if I have too many routers I'm losing anyway. Otherwise, try to
minimise the number of wavers that you can be forced to take, and
maximise the number that you can make the opponent take.

Unless you're playing Chris Damour, who doesn't care because he only
rolls 5s and 6s anyway.

;-)

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 7/7/2003 11:11:41 AM Eastern Standard Time,
ewan.mcnay@... writes:

> Several of my more successful armies have been
> designed around taking minimal waver tests.>>

I strongly agree with this design theory of Ewan's, but I would also point out
that in my fights, more emphasis is placed on not taking wavers from things I do
*tactically* than from troop choices.

J

That is exactly where I'm trying to get myself. Waver mitigating tactics
Wanax

Thresh1642@... wrote:
>>>I just don't like this effect early in
the game. Where I loose is in waver tests.<<<

As I have been reminded many a time when playing Jon, you can't fail a waver
test you don't have to take.

It's one of the not so subtler naunces of the game I am trying to learn.

Todd

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Lord of the Meadehall of men! Aknowledged professional sack lounger. Creator
of semi-lifeforms in their millions. The good looking twin, though sinister in
thought and deed. He who would produce but for 7 years of inactivity punctuated
by frenzied finger touching. Smooth.

---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

What sort of things would you do tactically with a hoplite based army? I've
considered standing about on a hill, but I have too much experience at loosing
by initiative to actually conduct a battle that way.
Wanax

JonCleaves@... wrote:
In a message dated 7/7/2003 11:11:41 AM Eastern Standard Time,
ewan.mcnay@... writes:

> Several of my more successful armies have been
> designed around taking minimal waver tests.>>

I strongly agree with this design theory of Ewan's, but I would also point out
that in my fights, more emphasis is placed on not taking wavers from things I do
*tactically* than from troop choices.

J

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Lord of the Meadehall of men! Aknowledged professional sack lounger. Creator
of semi-lifeforms in their millions. The good looking twin, though sinister in
thought and deed. He who would produce but for 7 years of inactivity punctuated
by frenzied finger touching. Smooth.

---------------------------------
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[scott holder]

That is exactly where I'm trying to get myself. Waver mitigating tactics ;)

>Okay, perhaps somebody, Ewan for example, could post a previously used list
that meets his "designed to minimize waver test taking" criteria.

scott

Scott, here is the crux of the matter. I'm very Irreg A myself, and as can be
seen by the Norman list I posted I gravitate towards the big win roll with all
HC charging in at once. However, I'm old enough now to realize that I need an
army that moderates my willingness to charge rather than encourage it. So,
besides being one of my favorite historical periods, I find hoplites to be
completely opposite to my personality and thus forcing moderation and
consideration upon me. However, I still want to win, so I'm trying to find a
happy medium where hoplites can survive long enough for me to wear down the
opponant...at least that is the theory
I've certainly enjoyed this thread and learn much so far.
Wanax

"Holder, Scott" <Scott.Holder@...> wrote:
That is exactly where I'm trying to get myself. Waver mitigating tactics ;)

>Okay, perhaps somebody, Ewan for example, could post a previously used list
that meets his "designed to minimize waver test taking" criteria.

scott

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Lord of the Meadehall of men! Aknowledged professional sack lounger. Creator
of semi-lifeforms in their millions. The good looking twin, though sinister in
thought and deed. He who would produce but for 7 years of inactivity punctuated
by frenzied finger touching. Smooth.

---------------------------------
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[scott holder]

What sort of things would you do tactically with a hoplite based army? I've
considered standing about on a hill, but I have too much experience at loosing
by initiative to actually conduct a battle that way.

>It depends. I've seen how Don plays the "infantry counterpunching" game and
that's certainly one way to approach it, particularly since you'll most likely
end up playing that way anyway since you'll be outscouted in some instances. If
you load up on Gauls and/or Spaniards, you've got both great counterpunching and
"leading" infantry. Those 4E hoplite units can also scootch around in
counterpunching but woe to them if they ever get caught by something meaningful
since they're too small, as a rule, to hold up or last long. I feel these
"lotsa little units" approach works better with armies that shoot, since you can
arrange your support shot lines to play havoc with an incoming opponent, ala
what Ed did to me with Free Company (using an approach borrowed from Dave
Markowitz and his HYW list) and what Don sorta did with bolt shooters and
auxiliary bowmen with Imperial Romans. But with hoplites and little shooting
potential? I'm not so sure. You run the risk of getting a couple of smaller
units picked off unless you're incredibly careful. And let me emphasize that
there's a significant difference between the static "stand on the hill" defense
and the "counterpunching" defense. I'm very familiar with the latter using Burg
Ordonnance and it's quite an active movement scheme with an army that's designed
to counter well, not take waver tests and, well counterpunch with oomph.

>If you want to attack and not counterpunch, force marching the 12E hoplite
block to the centerline certainly dictates where the battle will flow (either
totally away from it or right at it depending on the opponent's army). You use
that 12E block to anchor and then attack with your Irr foot, supported by full
service peltasts. At least in theory. Since you've played Syracusan, you're
obviously familiar with it's nuances. It should be an interesting 25mm list
although I think it would be a better 15mm army because of the space you can use
to develop the game.

scott

[scott holder]

However, I'm old enough now to realize that I need an
army that moderates my willingness to charge rather than encourage it.

>Hoplites certainly do that.

I find hoplites to be
completely opposite to my personality and thus forcing moderation and
consideration upon me. However, I still want to win,

>Hmmmmm, nobody likes playing "second tier" armies more than me and I can
understand the allure from hoplites. However, it probably goes far too much the
other way in terms of the challenge in making it "win" based on what you have to
work with. Other general armies that go somewhat toward your "it's opposite my
personality" criteria would be just about any of the pike trash lists. I mean
you don't hafta play Seleucids since the other lists are somewhat more limited
(heh heh, right now) but also require a certain amount of patience to run. Two
other armies that come to mind along these lines are Qin and Han Chinese. They
have some of the same general concepts as hoplites except have a bit more to
work with. And then there's Syracusans which, in the hands of a good player,
can probably marginally compete with the big boys from time to time.

>Of course the New World lists, well, Aztecs and Tlaxcallans at least, are
probably the ultimate in terms of "not charge" even if you max out Irr A nutjobs
with the Aztecs. I guess the same applies at the other horsey end of the
spectrum with things like Mongols and Yuan.

>But none of those address any "favorite period" criteria, they simply offer
better chances to win while mitigating the player's overarching desire to charge
early and often.

scott