Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Dan Bass <dfbass@g...> wrote:
>
> Dear All,
>
> Trying to grasp the rules and develop a solid list...and I have
decided to
> give the Song a try...

Hi Dan. I'm sorry no one else has replied to this - as a new
player I know how hard it is to get a solid grasp of the rules, and
sensible army list construction.

It's taken me a while to sit down with the Song list and hammer
out my thoughts, but I thought you would appreciate that over an off-
the-cuff reply.

So here we go. Before I get into the meat of this post, I'll just
make clear that I am also relatively new to this system (1-2 years
of infrequent play), so please take everything I say with a BIG
grain of salt. With any luck, some of the more experienced players
will take a look at this and provide some constructive comments for
both of us!

Since I don't know what level you are currently at in you grasp of
the rules and the lists, I'll be speaking in "train of thought"
mode, and try and explain my thinking on stuff.

And they're OFF!

> The following is meant to be a 1600pt 15mm army...although this
seems to be
> only 1583 so far...also, I am not to sure on the command factor
rule...

The command factor rule is simply this - each "unit" (pg 15, 2.52
of the rules) in a Warrior army list must pay points for it's
individual tactical command and control.

The ONLY exception to this is if a general in the line of command
assumes direct tactical control of the unit - in this case, you
specify in the army list creation that it will be accompanied by
either you CinC, a Sub-general, or an Ally-general. Once that
decision is made, the command element cannot leave the unit during
combat.

Hence, in the case of a Regular unit, it's total points cost will
be the cost of all the elements, plus upgrades in it, PLUS 10pts for
it's command factor. Irregular units pay 25pts per unit.

I find it simpler to just incorporate the command factor into each
unit as I construct the list, as you will see below.

>I
> purchased 11 regular command factors, one for each unit that did
not have a
> general/sub-general attached. "FL'" is fire lance, and the "x2" is
the
> number of shots...

You made an error with your Fire Lances allocation for your cav -
according to page 3 of Oriental Warrior, bullet #4, the listed
option of "0-2" indicates the maximum number of shots in the ENTIRE
army, not per unit. Additionally, only infantry units can have
multiple shots of Fire Lance.

> Sample Southern Song Army
>
> 1. CinC 2 xReg A EHC L,B,Sh FLx2, 1 x Reg C HC L,B,Sh FLx2
> 2. SubGen 2 xReg A EHC L,B,Sh FLx2, 1 x Reg C HC L,B,Sh FLx2
> 3. SubGen2 2 xReg A EHC L,B,Sh FLx2, 1 x Reg C HC L,B,Sh FLx2
> 4. Spear1 6 x Reg D MI LTS,Sh FLx2
> 5. Spear2 6 x Reg D MI LTS,Sh FLx2, 6 x Reg D MI LTS FLx2
> 6. Sword 6 x Reg D MI 1HCW, Sh
> 7. Bow1 6 x Reg D LI B,Sh; 6 x Reg D LI B
> 8. Bow2 6 x Reg D LI B,Sh
> 9. Bow3 6 x Reg D LI B,Sh
> 10. Bow4 6 x Reg D LI B,Sh
> 11. Bow5 6 x Reg D LI B,Sh
> 12. Bow6 6 x Reg D LI B,Sh
> 13 Bow7 6 x Reg D LI B,Sh
> 14 Artillery 2 x 1 Talent (5 Reg C Crew), Incendiary
> Ditched Palisades x2 (each 6 elements)
> Caltrops x 6 (each one element)
>
> The idea was to use the temp fortifications (which can be placed
in forward
> zone, thanks free list rule!) to anchor one flank, hopefully also
using
> terrain to aide on one or both flanks. The artillery (very iffy
purchase) is
> there to help in anchoring a flank...so maybe a hill combined with
the
> palisades?
>
> Then I would use the fire power of the Bowmen to soften up
opponents for
> (hopefully) EHC/spearmen charges. Not sure what to do with the
Swordsmen,
> but they are compulsory...
>
> Any thoughts on list construction and/or tactics will be greatly
> appreciated!!!


Okay, here's my thoughts on your list/tactics so far:

1.) Generally speaking, I try to avoid mixing morale classes with my
generals - more than any other units, you want them to NOT shake or
rout. So I would NOT mix in an element of "C" class cav with your
CinC or Sub-general.

2.) As I noted above, you can't give both units 2 shots of Fire
Lance each - you can only use 2 shots in the army. In addition, the
3rd element in each unit will NOT be fighting at first contact,
assuming your are in a 1 wide x 3 deep formation (Lance, figures
eligible to fight, pg 68, 9.22). Hence, this is a waste of Fire
Lance points. So I would chop out the C class Cav for this reason,
as well as the lower moral issue. And reduce each unit to 1 shot of
FL each.

3.) Your Spearmen units are on the small side - for main battle
line units, I tend to favor large units, the better to absorb
casualties and resist massed bow fire.

4.) Also, I don't really favor the Fire Lance in main line units.
The thinking is thus: You are most likely going to be receiving
charges at the halt, since they are foot (and get charges cancelled
by mounted), and they are regulars (and thus can't be impetuous,
getting their charges cancelled by impetuous enemy foot - all on pg
39, Cancelled Charges). As such, your LTS will only be fighting 1.5
ranks (pg 68, 9.22), which means that for every 8 figures of close
order foot that you paid points to equip with Fire Lance, only 6
will actually use them, the other 2 just "tossing them aside".

Save Fire Lance for counter-punching troops who are going to
charge your opponent's units in the flank after they have
gotten "stuck" frontally on one of your Spear units.

5.) If you have no idea what to do with the Swordsmen, don't spend
more points on them than you have to - only 4 elements are required
for legal army list construction, so why buy 6? And why shield all
of them, when just the front rank will often do?

6.) This next statement will probably cause the most uproar with
the more veteran players here, but I'll go on record as saying that
you have TOO MUCH LIGHT INFANTRY. Your 48 elements of LI are all D
class morale, and all of them have only Bow and Shield. Enemy
skirmishers that are better configured for HtH, and supported by
Light Cavalry, will simply run you off and run you down, before your
main line troops can come up and help out. Keep in mind that the
Song list you have constructed have NO Light Cav for skirmishing,
leaving the LI all alone on the island so to speak.

7.) Directly related to point #6, you have not taken advantage of
being able to get regular LMI bowmen (4 figures a base, able to
skirmish) by taking all your bowmen as LI. Simply put, reg LMI
bowmen put out twice the weight of bowfire on a per-element frontage
than the LI, and while this costs twice the points, there IS good
value here.

8.) The Artillery, while interesting, is ultimately of little use.
It is simply too easy for competent players to simply stay away from
your big guns. The fact that Stone Throwers can not fire on the
turn they move OR the next turn(!) (pg 65, 8.84), and have no line
of sight except straight to the front (and 1 element overlap to each
side) make them a big points waste.

This point took me a while to reconcile, because the lack of
artillery in competition tournament lists doesn't jive with how
often they were used historically (which is to say, more often than
the NEVER that currently exists in Warrior open competition).

9.) The Ditched palisades are a nice idea, but it is better to
consider not incorporating them into your main list. The reason for
this is twofold:

a.) By buying Ditched Palisades during the "List Adjustment"
portion of the pre-game setup, you enable yourself to turn in units,
even mandatory ones (like, say, useless Swordsmen....) for your
Ditched Palisades, instead of using "useful" points from the main
list.

b.) By taking Ditched Palisades, you enable your OPPONENT to buy
incendiaries for his B and LB armed troops (section 14.46, pg 108,
of the NEW section 14 in the Yahoo groups files section - go
download this and section 12 if you haven't already).

One of the list rule advantages of your Chinese list is that
you don't need "permission" from your opponent, or have to spend
extra points on TFs, to get incendiaries. USE IT. Make HIM spend
points on ditches and what not. Sure, it's only 10pts for 1 ditch,
but every little bit helps.

On Caltrops - they can be useful in deterring mounted troops, but
since you can't get them in significant quantities (0-6 elements
only), I don't really bother with them. That, plus I'm not sure how
the rules for them work (how do you handle following up a recoiling
opponent over Caltrops - do you get to recover them and use them
again in a later bound against another charging mounted opponent?
If you only buy 1 element's worth for a unit, do you get to pick
which element to drop them in front of, or are you required to do
book keeping on WHICH element in the unit has the caltrops?).

------------------------------------------------------------------

Your general tactics, while sound on paper, pretty much fail with
your army selection. The "softening up" you are hoping for from
your LI bow will simply NOT materialize against most enemies - they
will pick one area of your line to concentrate most of their shock
units, and use their skirmishers to break YOUR skirmish line at that
point so that the shock troops can pour into your Reg D MI line.
All it will take is a couple of Light Cav mounted charges in the
open to cause waver tests on your D class LI, and they will shake
and then break.

Having had that happen to me repeatedly, I speak from
experience. ;>

Your LI bow will simply NOT put out the volume of fire you need to
impact an enemy on a element-to-element basis. Your opponent most
likely will just stay away from your Ditched Palisades, unless he
has loose order foot shock troops, in which case he'll charge in and
chop up the LI you have manning those Ditched Palisades (I'm
guessing you use LI to man them, since you have 8 units of them)


------------------------------------------------------

Okay, having picked on your list and tactics repeatedly, I'll
return the favor, and put up a list with some tactics ideas (most of
which will be shot down by the more experienced gamers here, I
suspect).

First, the list:

Southern Song 1600pt list:
--------------------------

CinC Reg A HC L, B, Sh, 1 shot Fire Lance (FL) 160pts
+
Line Cav 1E Reg A HC L, B, 1 shot FL 39

Line Cav 2E Reg C HC L, B, 1 shot FL 76

"Fire" Spears 2E Reg D MI LTS, 1/2 Sh, 1 shot FL 38

"Fire" Spears 2E Reg D MI LTS, 1/2 Sh, 1 shot FL 38

Spearmen 8E Reg D MI LTS, 1/2 Pa, 1/2 Sh
+ 154 pts
Bowmen 4E Reg D MI B, 1 shot Incendiary

(Repeat 3 times) 154
"" "" 154
"" "" 154

Crossbowmen 4E Reg B LMI CB, 1/2 Sh 82
Crossbowmen 2E Reg B LMI CB, 1/2 Sh, 1 shot Incend 54
Crossbowmen 2E Reg B LMI CB, 1/2 Sh, 1 shot Incend 54

Archers 8E Reg C LI B, 1/2 Sh 66
Archers 8E Reg C LI B, 1/2 Sh 66
Archers 4E Reg C LI B, 1/2 Sh 38
Archers 4E Reg C LI B, 1/2 Sh 38

Mongol Horse Archers 2E Reg B LC B, 1/2 JLS, 1/2 Sh 46
(Repeat 3 times) 46
"" "" 46
"" "" 46

Swordsmen 4E Reg D MI 1HCW, 1/2 Sh 50pts

---------------------------------------------

General List notes:

- you have 20 units in a single command, so to break the command
requires your opponent to shake/rout 10 units.

- You have 40 scouting points, not great, but better than some of
the Feudal lists that don't have LC.


Tactics:

Okay, so here's my thinking on this list and what I hope to
accomplish:

1.) The Spearmen + Bowmen are the 4 main blocks of my battle line.
They will be built being 4 elements wide, with the front rank being
LTS, Pavise, the 2nd rank being LTS, Shield, and the 3rd rank is the
Bowmen. Remember the bows are only firing at half effect (8 figures
instead of 16) because they are further back from the front than 1
rank (pg 65, 8.7), however they will ALWAYS fire those 8 all the way
out to 240 paces (pg 63, 8.4), assuming they have appropriate line
of arc/sight for all 4 elements of bowmen to the same target unit.

The Pavise means that your opponents shoot your unit at a ZERO
with bows/JLS/slings, and at a -1 with CB.

The shield in the second rank means that if you have to recoil,
you can fall back the first rank of Pavisers to get them behind the
shielded LTS, and not count as shieldless MI in following bounds of
HtH combat.

The Bowmen do not make the LTS units into shooting blocks, nor
are they meant to. They are there simply to add weight of numbers
to the main line block (40 figure unit vs 32), and to shoot
incendiaries into a charging knight/cav enemy - assuming only 1 unit
comes in, it'll get shot at by 6 figures (or 4 if on the end of your
line) at a 2 (4 for incendiary, -2 for in contact). 4 @ 2 does 8,
which is the 1 CPF you need to disorder a mounted foe with
incendiaries.

The cagey opponent will realize this and try and "tease" that shot
out of the LTS unit by charging in cascade - sending in first one
unit, and then several others the FOLLOWING bound to try and break
the block. So, when playing, avoid shooting the single mounted
unit, and try to remember that the MOST that unit can do is 60
casualties (Lance armed cav is 5 figures fighting @ 10 or "more" is
60). To your 40 figure Spear/bow block, this is 1 CPF. However,
unless the enemy cav is Irr A, they will be HARD pressed to get up
to "more".

This is where learning the Math of Warrior is critical to making
sound tactical decisions.

Lance on MI is a 4. Mounted charging(+1) is a 5. Charging
Impetuously (+2) is a 7. However, facing Steady LTS(-2) drops it
back down to 5. 5 @ 5 is only 20, does NOT do 1 CPF to your spear
block. 5 @ 8 (assuming he rolls UP 3 on the dice) is only 37 -
again, NOT 1 CPF. SHC (close order) is slightly different because
more figures fight (6 vs the 5 for loose order cav). 6 @ 4 (they
only get +1 for impetuous, not +2) is 18, 6 at 7 is 36.

Meanwhile, your LTS block fights back. LTS versus SHK/SHC (worse
case scenario) is a 2. Against impetuous charger (+1) is a 3. 6
figures @ 3 is 15. Throw in support shooting (6 figures on SHC is -
1, -3 for contact, gives 2 more casualties).

Your total is 17 versus 20. He "beats" you, but does not do 1
CPF, so does not recoil you. In return, you have done 2 CPF to him,
and basically tied that Knight/SHC unit down for one of YOUR counter-
charging units to come in and take it in the flank. And you STILL
have your 1 shot of Incendiary left for when more SHC/Knights/Cav
come in on future bounds.

Of course, every situation is relative - your opponent might be
light on Knights, or used them to chase after other stuff, in which
case you will feel fine using Incendiaries on the first unit that
comes in.

2.) The skirmish line will be made up of 4 units of LI archers (2
8E and 2 4E units) plus the 4 units of Mongol LC. They will often
force march up to the middle of the table, or the LI will man any
Ditched Palisades you might buy.

Most veteran players will tell you to have LC on the flanks, with LI
either on the flanks or the middle.

I'm going to tell you that the reason I upgraded the Mongols to B
class is SPECIFICALLY to play with them in the middle with the LI
archers.

Page 3 of Oriental Warrior tells you that the Mongols have
several special rules that apply to them. 2 of those are that
Mongols can counter ANY time, and don't need an enabling reason as
specified by 6.14, pg 36, of the rules AND that LC fights in 1.5
ranks when charging, counter charging, or pursuing.

What this means is that the Mongols are the BEST when it comes to
romping around the battlefield, stalling march moves, supporting
your archers, and running down enemy LI. If your opponent has LOTS
of LC (like Skythians for example), than simply keep countering back
and pass through your main battle line of MI with Pavise and LTS.
Assuming you don't let someone shoot you up for 3CPF, disordering
you, the Mongols will pass all Counter tests on a 2+ of the D6,
thanks to their being B class troops.

Using the Mongol LC like this takes PRACTICE - practice to know
how to leave gaps in your battle line for the LC to pass through,
when to counter back, when to charge, when to recall and when to
waver test, etc. I'm still learning myself, but I think that the LC
element (and the skirmishers as a whole) is a critical part of
making the army work well. Without them, you lose the ability to
contest the middle of the battle field (since MI march only segments
2 and 1 of the March Phase, they are easy to pin back in their
deployment area).

3.) The Crossbowmen provide a vital element - the ability to shoot
up Knights and SHI/EHI infantry. The deadliest threat to your main
battle line of LTS guys will be someone taking their SHK units,
dismounting into SHI, and then wading in and chopping you up with
2HCW. LTS versus these guys starts at ZERO, which is bad news for
you.

So you want to have the Crossbow units floating around in the
gaps between the Spear blocks, or playing in difficult terrain like
Woods over on the flanks, and shooting up any Knight units that come
along. They especially need to be in position against SHK (which
dismount to SHI) and SHC, since bows are pathetic against these
troop types.

4.) The counter punching "shock" of your army comes in the form of
the 2 HC units (1 of which is your CinC), and the 2 "Fire" Spear
units.

The Fire Spear units are small, specifically because they need
to be able to maneuver on the flanks of your block units and still
charge in. When they charge an enemy that is "stuck" on your LTS
block, they will get all 8 figures fighting at a +1 factor for Fire
Lance, thus maximizing the efficiency of your points cost here.
Remember, that even though they can only move 80p as MI, that they
can approach 80p, and then TURN 90 degrees (since they are
regulars). This makes the charge into the flank on enemy units much
easier to pull off.

The HC units will look to charge impetuously with their Fire
Lances for the same as the Fire Spears, only more (the 2nd cav unit
will only be impetuous if it charges at the same time, and starts
the charge within 240paces, of your CinC, since it is a Reg cav
unit). The impetuous is important, especially against SHK (Lance is
@ 1 versus SHK, mounted charging is 2, Fire Lance is 3. Impetuous
bumps this up to 5 - important for getting to 3 CPF and twice as
many for that rout).

BE CAREFUL WHERE YOU STICK THE CINC - I can't tell you the number
of times I've gotten my CinC beat up, routed, or even "killed" (in a
catastrophe - pg 72, 10.4)

Also avoid the urge to go skirmishing with the HC - even though
they have bow, they are there for countercharging. Use the Mongols
for skirmishing.

5.) Finally, the Swordsmen hang out near the camp and act as camp
guards. With a close order battle line, and limited cav, your
ability to react to Flank Marches is small. By keeping the
Swordsmen back, you give yourself some protection, and buy time for
some of your countering Mongols to come back and play with the Flank
marching enemy (which will likely be enemy LC or cav coming to sack
and loot your camp).
---------------------------------------------

Well, that pretty much sums up the army. Some additional
thoughts/ideas:

1.) Remember, your climate is Tropical. As such, you will deny the
+1 to terrain placement for your opponent, while giving yourself a
+1. On a D6 table, this is a HUGE skew, and can have a dramatic
impact on how the game plays out. Your opponent will tend toward
more discarded terrain, while you will get more "place where you
want" results.

2.) Terrain choice is pretty key, especially in an army that has
minimal shock and relies on close order foot as much as this one
does. Starting with 2 open spaces, and then 2 forests or hills, is
one idea. Use the Opens to make sure that the middle of the field
is clear of obstruction - you need to make sure your Spear/bow
blocks have adequate support between them.

Then use the 2 woods (which will go anywhere on a 5 or 6, on the
flanks on 2-4, and discarded on a 1, thanks to your being Tropical)
to clog up ONE flank and give your LI and LMI some area to
ambush/play in.

You want to be careful about putting woods on EITHER end, because
your "terrain troops" (veteran Warrior speak for quality loose order
foot armed with good HtH options) are not really there. The LMI
Crossbow can't really shoot in the woods, and have NO close combat
weapons, and neither does the LI.

As a result you will have BOTH flanks that can't be entered or
secured by your close order spear blocks (close order troops get
disordered by difficult terrain). Suffice to say, this would be
BAD. Keep one flank open, and pivot around the terrain on the other
flank.

3.) Using TFs will be very much dependent on your opponents army.
If you feel you want the 2 Ditched Palisades, then toss the 50pt
swordsmen for 2 Ditched Palisades and 1 Ditch. Put the Ditch over
by your camp, and put the Ditched Palisades up front, and manned by
LI or LMI. Or forget the Ditch, and give Incendiaries to your 2 HC
units, for shooting up enemy mounted.

REMEMBER!!! If you are outscouted, you can't place the Ditched
Palisades OR your force marchers, within 240 of the mid line. Keep
this in mind when placing woods for ambushing - place the terrain
well back of the midline if your opponent's army has the potential
for outscouting you (3x your scouting points).

4.) Feel free to tweak this list however you like. If there are
more Knights in your environment, use more Crossbow. If there are
fewer Knights, get more bow. The LMI, MI, and LI, are all
interchangeable in this regard.

Don't like the Fire Spears? Toss'em. Get another HC unit
(without Fire Lance unfortunately)

Final note - this is NOT going to be an easy army to play. If you
think the gaps between the Spear/bow blocks are busy, what with
Mongol LC countering back through, and Fire Spear foot moving
through, and HC Fire Lance mounted moving through, and LMI Crossbow
dancing around - you would be RIGHT!

Keeping the gaps small enough so that you don't expose the
Spear/bow blocks to flank charges, and yet big enough for you to
move your support troops properly is very HARD and very TRICKY - the
only way to get good at it is practice (moving your regulars,
skirmishing your LMI, contracting and expanding blocks, etc), but
this is pretty much a touch stone of Warrior in general:

The maneuver of your troops so they fight in concert instead of
getting in each other's way.

Southern Song would not be considered a "Tier 1" competition
list, mainly due to the lack of shock, but I think you can fight it
competitively and make a good showing.

So good luck Dan, and may you always roll up!

Regards,
Asif Chaudhry

p.s. And a Happy Holidays to all!

[Ewan McNay]

On Tue, 27 Dec 2005, shahadet_99 wrote:
> > Trying to grasp the rules and develop a solid list...and I have
> decided to
> > give the Song a try...
>
> Hi Dan. I'm sorry no one else has replied to this - as a new
> player I know how hard it is to get a solid grasp of the rules, and
> sensible army list construction.

Ten - ok, twenty - points to Asif. I think I probably deleted the
original post in a flurry of spam .

If you search the group archives, you'll find several discussions of the
merits of various Chinese armies; the Song did not come out on top .
I'm going to comment, though, in the context of a decision to use Song;
you can check out the alternatives for yourself (with my personal
preference being for later Tang, using Tibetan mercenaries).

Lots of good stuff snipped where there was nothing for even one so
cantankerous as I to disagree with.

> > Sample Southern Song Army
> > 1. CinC 2 xReg A EHC L,B,Sh FLx2, 1 x Reg C HC L,B,Sh FLx2
> > 2. SubGen 2 xReg A EHC L,B,Sh FLx2, 1 x Reg C HC L,B,Sh FLx2
> > 3. SubGen2 2 xReg A EHC L,B,Sh FLx2, 1 x Reg C HC L,B,Sh FLx2

As Asif commented, the third rank of cav is probably suboptimal. You get
to fight 1.5 ranks of lancers when charging, som the third element per
unit would only be minimising your own CPF received. Add in the reduced
morale from their inclusion, and they're a poor use of points.

Now, you might - I would - consider having 2E units of Reg A EHC/Reg C HC.
That's a lot cheaper - Reg A EHC are expensive. And almost exactly the
same offensive and defensive capability. So, assume that you are not
going to be taking waver tests, and proceed ). [Which sums up as saying
that I do not share Asif's worry over generals' morale. I have run
several armies qhere the gens are in C class units.]

> > 4. Spear1 6 x Reg D MI LTS,Sh FLx2
> > 5. Spear2 6 x Reg D MI LTS,Sh FLx2, 6 x Reg D MI LTS FLx2

12E units are difficult to move other than by shaking their morale, but a
tad unwieldy. You'll want to practice manouvreing your units in
combination.

> > 6. Sword 6 x Reg D MI 1HCW, Sh

I would take maybe 2x2E of these at most.

Then - for the first time in history - I'm going to echo Asif in saying
that you have too many LI. And if I'm saying it... well, I'm certainly
one of the strongest proponents of regular LI on the group. I like 6E,
1/2 shielded units for the LI B, as the rear rank of shields gets you
almost nothing and 6E is a very easy size to manouvre.

5 6E units should be enough for almost any situation, and I am happy to
see some of the others converted to LMI. You'll want more MI spearmen,
too, likely, to form a decent-length line.

> > 7. Bow1 6 x Reg D LI B,Sh; 6 x Reg D LI B
> > 8. Bow2 6 x Reg D LI B,Sh
> > 9. Bow3 6 x Reg D LI B,Sh
> > 10. Bow4 6 x Reg D LI B,Sh
> > 11. Bow5 6 x Reg D LI B,Sh
> > 12. Bow6 6 x Reg D LI B,Sh
> > 13 Bow7 6 x Reg D LI B,Sh
> > 14 Artillery 2 x 1 Talent (5 Reg C Crew), Incendiary
> > Ditched Palisades x2 (each 6 elements)
> > Caltrops x 6 (each one element)

Caltrops I think are interesting and potentially useful. The artillery,
not so much. Asif's right again. And, you don't really have enough
troops to pay for expensive artillery. At 1600 points you ideally want 18
units or so; you also need to consider how your units are going to work
together and what you are trying to kill in a typical enemy army. I would
suggest that your current configuration doesn't offer any way to either
project power via significant missile fire, nor speed to chase an enemy
down, nor raw power to push through .

> > Then I would use the fire power of the Bowmen to soften up
> opponents for
> > (hopefully) EHC/spearmen charges. Not sure what to do with the
> Swordsmen,
> > but they are compulsory... :-)

Your basic plan is (a) not bad, and (b) infinitely better than not having
a plan, which is rather common. Seriously, good to see that thought went
into the design. I think that the flaws come in two main areas:
overestimating your ability to cover a frontage (i.e. both hold flanks
*and* push in the middle), and overestimating the ability of LI alone to
put out enough bowfire against a competent enemy centre.

I'll try to find a moment to look at the Song list and make a few more
concrete suggestions. You're going to want to look up incendiaries, too,
being Chinese.

[I wrote all of that before reading Asif's closingcommentary on your list.
It's sensible.]

> Southern Song 1600pt list:
> --------------------------
>
> CinC Reg A HC L, B, Sh, 1 shot Fire Lance (FL) 160pts
> +
> Line Cav 1E Reg A HC L, B, 1 shot FL 39
>
> Line Cav 2E Reg C HC L, B, 1 shot FL 76

I might actually keep EHC vs HC. Reg A can probably counter out when
needed, and you have so little shock power in the list.

> "Fire" Spears 2E Reg D MI LTS, 1/2 Sh, 1 shot FL 38
>
> "Fire" Spears 2E Reg D MI LTS, 1/2 Sh, 1 shot FL 38

I'm highly unwild about having your reserve/counterpunch troops as Reg D.
They'll fail wavers too often. I would likely skip these and probably
take a further unit of loose cav.

> Spearmen 8E Reg D MI LTS, 1/2 Pa, 1/2 Sh
> + 154 pts
> Bowmen 4E Reg D MI B, 1 shot Incendiary
>
> (Repeat 3 times) 154
> "" "" 154
> "" "" 154

These are OK, if still anonymous. They have the usual disadvantage of
poor close foot that they will only fight things that kill them, but Asif
takes them in huge units and as a Chinese army, you are pretty much locked
into having a mass of close spear foot making up your line. Fine.

> Crossbowmen 4E Reg B LMI CB, 1/2 Sh 82
> Crossbowmen 2E Reg B LMI CB, 1/2 Sh, 1 shot Incend 54
> Crossbowmen 2E Reg B LMI CB, 1/2 Sh, 1 shot Incend 54

Yuck; I think these are probably not very useful, and you'd be better off
just resigning yourself to having no rough terrain capability. Their
morale makes them reasonably expensive, and if they ever get caught
they're toast. Granted, as reg B they will/should rarely get caught, but
I'd probably prefer more LC, for example.

> Archers 8E Reg C LI B, 1/2 Sh 66
> Archers 8E Reg C LI B, 1/2 Sh 66
> Archers 4E Reg C LI B, 1/2 Sh 38
> Archers 4E Reg C LI B, 1/2 Sh 38

I don't understand these unit sizes and I'd keep them as Reg D.

> Mongol Horse Archers 2E Reg B LC B, 1/2 JLS, 1/2 Sh 46
> (Repeat 3 times) 46
> "" "" 46
> "" "" 46

Useful, if probably a little vulnerable to large units of enemy LC. I'd
want one or more units of LMI B to accompany these on a flank, as it's
likely to be where you're pushing; add in a unit of HC or EHC and you have
a combvined arms force that might actually find something it can kill .

> Swordsmen 4E Reg D MI 1HCW, 1/2 Sh 50pts

Compulsory .

Asif also has a tactical plan, and it's still a good thing. I think,
though, that it's pretty much a reactive plan, relying on absorbing the
impact of a (mounted) enemy into the close foot and then reacting, largely
(the Mongol uses excepted). I don't honestly see this as viable. Yes, I
need to kill ten units from your single command to make it go home; I can
do this without ever getting close to the close foot line. So I think you
need to have a plan that allows you to decide where *you* want to fight,
what you're trying to kill, and hence how to fight the battle on your
terms. [I did like the thought on using the CB guys against knights/SHC.
But I wouldn't want to have to be pushing with my loose foot in such an
environment necessarily!]

Your opponent should be assumed to also be capable of doing math . So
if sending in a single SHK unit into a spear block is a bad thing, why
will he do it? He'll be sending them into your smaller close units, your
LMI, your cav, even your LI if it's getting toward 10 units. At least,
that's his plan.

You might also consider how you're going to fight an army of Alexander or
his successors, which essentially beats your LI, your loose foot, your
close foot line. Your LC is better than his, but elephants are better
than your LC . Were I playing such an army, I'd salivate at facing you.
Now, you're going to have poor matchups whatever army you're playing, but
you will want to consider how to minimise the problems.

Enough to think about.