Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[John Murphy]

I am probably going to play in this if it is offered up in 25mm. I do
not have a _lot_ of selection in my Roman 25mm army at this time (and
for a 25mm theme I'd like to use all the correct figures) but am
looking at something like the following with the figures I have.
Seems pretty interesting to me with the new list rules.

Early Imperial Roman, Danubian, Middle Period (70 AD - 138 AD)

1x CinC 1E Reg A HC JLS,Sh(PA) @ 154
= 154
2x Sub-general 2E 1/2 Reg A 1/2 Reg B HC JLS,Sh(P) @ 117
= 234
2x Equites Alares 2E 1/2 Reg A 1/2 Reg B HC JLS,Sh @ 79
= 158
4x Veteran Legionaries 4E 1/4 Reg A 3/4 Reg B HI HTW,Sh @ 126
= 504
1x Auxilia 4E Reg B LHI JLS,Sh @ 122
= 122
1x Auxilia 4E Reg C LHI JLS,Sh @ 106
= 106
2x Light Bolt-Shooter 2E Reg B 2 crew Art (cart) @ 74
= 148
4x Ditch 6E TF / obs @ 10
= 40

-----

1,466

The least expensive element is 24 pts.

So there are still 134 to 157 points to spend as I figure it.

Best to invest all this in Auxilia...
give front rank S & HTW for JLS (tot. 16 pts.)
add third rank bowmen (tot. 88 pts.) - though not crazy about this one

rather upgrade front rank of 2 HI units to EHI (tot. 32 pts.)

would really like to have some Sarmatians!
(but too expensive with ally-general & mins)
also looking at - Numeri... Reg B LC JLS,Sh or Reg C LI B
or Raetian Numeri Irr C LHI HTW,Sh

Note: Front rank 1E of Equites Alares units
are upgraded to Reg A as Singularis Consularis or Augusti.
Note: Front rank 1E of Legionaries units
are upgraded to Reg A as Stratores or Beneficiarii.
I see nothing against these though I confess they sound gamey to me,
but I _will_ do them if legal as I think they are.

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 3/20/2004 14:33:36 Central Standard Time,
jjmurphy@... writes:
Well, the equites turned out to be
pretty good actually. When you look at combat factors against
skirmish-able foot and add in the JLS plus they are, compared to
lancers, the same against LMI, better against LI and only o line
worse against LHI.>>

remember that a unit can only enter skirmish if it is in its own missile
range or an enemy approaching after can enter its missile range.

also, JLS armed cav only fight one rank hth (without a list rule)

that said, I still use my mandatory equites as LI chasers, even LC chasers,
but it is a doctoral level test to do this when the enemy has any missile
power. playing the current LIR fast warrior list gives one a lot of experience
in
finding a role for these troops...lol


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 3/20/2004 16:01:30 Central Standard Time,
jjmurphy@... writes:
In fact, except for maybe some problems still with ahistorical
matchups against knights, these guys are now almost a "super/killer"
troop type in their own right. As they should be I think.>>

While I do not feel they are particularly 'killer', we did say alomst every
day of playtesting, that if we get it a little wrong and Romans become somewhat
unbalanced in the strong sense, well, that wasn't a bad thing...lol


I am wondering a bit, just a bit, why you did not break down and make
them loose order like the Swiss pikes.>>

We looked at that extremely hard. Marians were LHI for the longest time in
development. But in the end, there just wasn't the justification for it.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[John Murphy]

I have looked over the new EIR list a bit more and done some head-
exercises with the new list rules. This has resulted in a couple of
conclusions and corresponding changes to the way I am building this
army for the upcoming Roman Empire 25mm theme tournament at
Historicon.

First, the revised list is given below, although the point total is
still low reflecting the fact I have not yet selected the way I would
like to best use the reamianing points. I have dropped a few items
and changed some stuff.

18. Early Imperial Roman, Danubian, Middle Period (70 AD - 138 AD)
Imperial Warrior, pages 35-37
***1,412*** total points
Climate: Warm, Boats: Yes
1x CinC 1E Reg A HC JLS,Sh(PA) @ 154 = 154
2x Sub-general 1E Reg A HC JLS,Sh(P) @ 84 = 168
4x Equites Alares 2E Reg B HC JLS,Sh @ 76 = 304
4x Veteran Legionaries 4E 1/4 Reg A 3/4 Reg B HI HTW,Sh @ 126 = 504
2x Auxilia 4E Reg C LHI 1/2 JLS,S,Sh 1/2 JLS,Sh @ 114 = 228
1x Light Bolt-Shooter 2E Reg B Art 2 crew @ 54 = 54

First, I dropped the EHI for the legionaries. This is something I may
put back in at a later date as looking at the numbers against some
likely opposition the fatigue loss might be countered by the utter
protection from missiles and the extra bit of an edge in combat. In
the long run over a game I suspect it actually saves more fatigue
points on CPF than it costs and might make the difference in breaking
or not breaking an enemy. But right now I am thinking it is important
just to get to know how to run these already very complicated guys as
HI first. Then when I get my small-brain around that problem I will
tackle how to handle upgrading them to EHI.

Second, I tried to figure out, with the new list rules, what will
still give the legionaries the most headaches straight-up within the
bounds of historical (or Roman Empire theme) opposition. A big answer
for me came back as loose order missile foot sitting in skirmish in
front of them. So I went about trying to work on how best to deal
with this. I have seen a lot of good players deal with my longbows by
keeping mounted in a location to support their foot so I have to
evade the mounted and risk being caught (or forego skirmish and fight
the foot). This works fairly well under a lot of circumstances, so
how to best do this with the EIR? Well, the equites turned out to be
pretty good actually. When you look at combat factors against
skirmish-able foot and add in the JLS plus they are, compared to
lancers, the same against LMI, better against LI and only o line
worse against LHI. That's pretty good for unit which can skirmish and
maneuver like regulars, maybe getting a flank charge off to save from
being support shot, and which causes the foot skirmishers to waver
test. So I pulled the sub-generals out of the equites, they can still
join up when needed for impetuosity or A-class reasons, and this
gives me four decent units to fulfil this very specific mission. I am
still considering wether to invest a few points to upgrade some front-
tankers to "A" but right now it looks like these are good enough for
what they are going to be asked to do.

Next I took the bolt shooters off the carts (reflecting how my
figures are done, this is something I will definitely change after
the tourney but they will not be there by that time). I also cut them
down to the minimum for the simple reason that I still have not
figured out how to best use the artillery in the game. Indeed, I have
no real idea yet what I will do with this unit.

Finally, I looked at what I still needed and what first suggested
itself was some troops that could really dish it out in bad going or
could skirmish in the open, if needed, in front of the legions. The
auxilia with slings seemed to fit this bill the best. So I dropped
the HTW from the auxilia to give me more slingers. I figure for
fighting stuff that HTW does well against I have the legions and the
JLS-armed auxilia with half slings fit a complementary role better
than auxilia with even more HTW's would. Yeah, I am giving up a
potentially "killer" troop type with half HTW and half JLS loose
order. But hopefully the legions are now able, with the new rules, to
realy fill that niche. And I still needed the missile and skirmish
ability more importantly. I also dropped them back to C class for the
moment though, like the equites, I will probably re-visit upping them
prior to the tournament.

So that is where the thought-process is at in designing this list. I
still have a couple hundred points to futz with. I have to check what
figures I have but a bit of auxilia archers come to mind still as one
likely addition, either as third-rankers or maybe more likely as a
seperate unit.

After all this, as you can see Warrior has been occupying quite a bit
of my study time this weekend (luckily I am a bit ahead), I would
certainly welcome some constructive comments, advice or ideas to look
at for this list for the theme. Keep in mind though my figure
selection is a bit limited and I would really like to run these using
just my own figures for this particular torunament. The idea,
actually, is almost just to learn as much as possible about playing
these guys as to win any games - though that is always nice too on
those oh so rare occassions!

[John Murphy]

> remember that a unit can only enter skirmish if it is in its own
missile
> range or an enemy approaching after can enter its missile range.

Aware of it, not a real big issue for their role but the skirmish
does give them another dimension under a very limited set of
circumstances.

> also, JLS armed cav only fight one rank hth (without a list rule)

Yeah, I noticed I was doing this right after I posted. Ah well. I
still think since (a) they _are_ a mandatory type and a useful one,
(b) they do cause waver tests for all skirmish types (LI/LMI/LHI)
they face in this role, (c) the can maneuver like the good-quality
regulars they are and if some foot unit is skirmishing my legions and
a gap is there on the flank of the skirmishers these can go there and
turn on the flank and avoid the support shot... then maybe they can
find a good use this way that will save me from having to figure out
another way of dealing with this issue.

And as I see it right now this is really the big issue with the
legions. Darn, I can't believe what these guys will now do to any
foot they catch, even super-Moogs! The worst they do is take two
bounds to break someone. I think, at least in this facet, FHE's work
is paying off and maybe indeed these guys will finally be "fixed".

In fact, except for maybe some problems still with ahistorical
matchups against knights, these guys are now almost a "super/killer"
troop type in their own right. As they should be I think.

I am wondering a bit, just a bit, why you did not break down and make
them loose order like the Swiss pikes. Same for some of the better
Hellenistic pikes for that matter. Alot of these really superbly
trained "close formation" troops seem to have used looser formations
until almost the moment of contact. I would refer you to Connolly or
Warry for some real good pictorial descriptions of this - albeit
modern sources based on some conjecture. I know it flies in the face
of how folks like to consider these troops but it does seem, to me,
like a reasonable way to model them.

But that is not a complaint or anything just a question, or maybe
even just a comment thrown out.

I am very, very, very happy with the way this list came out from what
I can tell so far.

> that said, I still use my mandatory equites as LI chasers, even LC
chasers,

LI chasers I see, I don't think I am ready to send them after LC yet.
But I will happily skirmish with shielded HC JLS and trade missile
shots with LC, assuming the initiative roll or opposition co-operates!

I have to admit I have a soft spot for Roman Early Imperial equites
having seen way too many Peter Connolly and Ann Hyland TV specials
(and their books) with the multi-pastel draco standards blowing
around in the wind and you have to admit they do look oh _sooo_ cool
in the silver parade masks! Kind of wish I had mine painted that way
in fact. Maybe something for the future.

> but it is a doctoral level test to do this when the enemy has any
missile
> power. playing the current LIR fast warrior list gives one a lot
of experience in
> finding a role for these troops...lol

A problem with any HC, even my prized Byzantines. Here it is a bit
better for prep shooting at least because they shoot and remain
shielded. But I agree, and I guess it is common knowledge, they get
eaten alive by any _serious_ missile foot support shot if you come
from the front. Hopefully, though, that will be where my legions are,
sucking up the shooting CPF's and not being particularly happy, and
just maybe there will be chance for the equites around the fringes.

[John Murphy]

Ya know, I am almost embarrased for having just said this. Please
ignore, and I retract before anyone even needs to respond to it, that
one mouth-before-brain bit of my ramblings. You guys did an excellent
and commendable job and came up with a model that does much of the
same thing without making anyone re-base all their legionaries. Bravo.

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "J. Murphy" <jjmurphy@s...>
wrote:
> But that is not a complaint or anything just a question, or maybe
> even just a comment thrown out.
> I am very, very, very happy with the way this list came out from
what
> I can tell so far.

[Frank Gilson]

Well, It looks like I'll be able to attend Historicon ...and I'd love to
play in the theme....and I'm flying out from California again. So, ummm,
anybody have a spare theme army?

I might be most comfortable running Sassanid Persian or Late Imperial Roman
or something with significant similarities to either...but will definitely
be happy running what is available.

Frank Gilson

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[John Murphy]

Frank,

Nobody has spoken for my 15mm Patricians yet, can you believe it? The
thrill of Reg D LMI that go shaken when you sneeze, hordes of close-
order barbarian foot that can't catch their grandmothers, a shortage
of generals to watch over all the kids, back rank MC lancers that
opponents just love to face when they disorder you, and everything
else one could want!

Similar to LIR in some ways - probably depends what you like best
about LIR and how you would tweak the Patrician list, though I do not
have any of those wonderful close-order MI HTW,D,JLS,Sh,kitchen-sink
proto-Skutatoi legions if that is what you really crave. Pretty sure
what I have for the Patsies has been spewed all over the list in
recent weeks if you want to check and see if it would work. You would
likely wish to make up your own list using them instead of going with
mine.

So the offer still stands if you let me know the nuts and bolts of
how they do for you. Just let me know for sure a few weeks prior so I
can be sure to get the last re-basing done before Historicon versus
after.

If you are looking for 25's I can't help on this one but I am sure
someone will speak up who can.

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Gilson"
<franktrevorgilson@h...> wrote:
> anybody have a spare theme army?
> Late Imperial Roman or something with significant similarities