Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Doug]

It seems to me that the majority of the LI in a Hoplite army ought to
be detachments of the hoplite units. Sending out the younger, less
armored troops to chase off annoying missile throwers.

Is there much evidence of "dedicated" skirmisher units, other than
the hired help (Cretan archers etc) ?

>1x Archers 10E IrrC LI B,Sh/B @75
>0-1x Slingers 6E IrrC LI S,Sh/S @55
>1x Psiloi 10E IrrC LI JLS,Sh/JLS @75
>3x Cretan Archers 2E RegC LI B @22
--

Doug
The price of freedom is infernal vigilantes

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Doug

Depends what you mean by 'dedicated'. Light troops certainly appear
in hoplite armies outside the hoplite formations - the younger age
groups of the hoplite lochoi may have been less heavily armoured but
would still be hoplites.

To give a later 5th century example. At Delium, the Theban army had,
according to Thucydides, 7000 hoplites, 'more than' 10,000 light
troops, 1,000 cavalry and 500 peltasts. However, the 10,000 don't do
a lot in the account. After their victory the Thebans were faced
with the Athenian garrisoned fort. Thucydides notes that the
Thebans 'immediately sent for javelin-throwers and slingers from the
Malian Gulf' [IV:93, 100]

There are lots of other references just in Thucydides (eg from the
Sicilian expedition) eg the Camarinenas send 500 hoplites, 300
javelin-throwers and 300 archers to assist Syracuse [VII:33].

Edward

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Doug <rockd@p...> wrote:
> It seems to me that the majority of the LI in a Hoplite army ought
to
> be detachments of the hoplite units. Sending out the younger, less
> armored troops to chase off annoying missile throwers.
>
> Is there much evidence of "dedicated" skirmisher units, other than
> the hired help (Cretan archers etc) ?
>
> >1x Archers 10E IrrC LI B,Sh/B @75
> >0-1x Slingers 6E IrrC LI S,Sh/S @55
> >1x Psiloi 10E IrrC LI JLS,Sh/JLS @75
> >3x Cretan Archers 2E RegC LI B @22
> --
>
> Doug
>

[Bill Chriss]

>
>
>
>
> It seems to me that the majority of the LI in a Hoplite army ought to
> be detachments of the hoplite units. Sending out the younger, less
> armored troops to chase off annoying missile throwers.
>
> Is there much evidence of "dedicated" skirmisher units, other
> than
> the hired help (Cretan archers etc) ?
>
>


The short answer is Yes. Read Thucydides' account of Demosthenes' defeat
of the Spartans at Sphakteria, and his campaigns from Naupaktos into
Acarnania. See also Xenophon's Hellenica and its description of the allied
Thessalian contingent of Jason of Pherae in the Theban army of
Epaminondas. Also, the Athenians, from mid 5th century on, maintained a
standing corps of horse archers, as well as JLS armed light cav
(prodromoi), and metics (resident aliens) and other sailors and marines
not currently employed as oarsmen were outfitted as psiloi or peltasts in
land battles. For more detail, see the Warrior files section, my article
and army list titled "greek Armies of the 4th Century."



Greek

[Bill Chriss]

>
>
>
>
> Doug
>
> Depends what you mean by 'dedicated'. Light troops certainly appear
> in hoplite armies outside the hoplite formations - the younger age
> groups of the hoplite lochoi may have been less heavily armoured but
> would still be hoplites.
>
> To give a later 5th century example. At Delium, the Theban army had,
> according to Thucydides, 7000 hoplites, 'more than' 10,000 light
> troops, 1,000 cavalry and 500 peltasts. However, the 10,000 don't do
> a lot in the account. After their victory the Thebans were faced
> with the Athenian garrisoned fort. Thucydides notes that the
> Thebans 'immediately sent for javelin-throwers and slingers from the
> Malian Gulf' [IV:93, 100]
>
> There are lots of other references just in Thucydides (eg from the
> Sicilian expedition) eg the Camarinenas send 500 hoplites, 300
> javelin-throwers and 300 archers to assist Syracuse [VII:33].
>
> Edward
>



Yes, thank you Edward for providing these excellent additional examples.
Right on. I should have included them in my post a few minutes ago.
Perhaps Doug is thinking of the Spartans, who disdained light troops, for
the most part, except for ekdromooi (the "runners out" or young men whose
ranks were sent charging out to run off enemy skirmishers). However, even
the Spartans employed lots of periokoi and helots as shieldbearers and
servants and skirmishers, and although they were considered sort of a
necessary evil by the bully boy Spartiates, they were usually armed only
with JLS or S, with some probably having shields. Not sure of trhe use of
archers by the Spartans, though. Perhaps you know. My specialty is the
Thebans, Thessalians, and Athenians.


Greek

[Doug]

> > Depends what you mean by 'dedicated'.

I'm speaking only of what we call LI, not mounted or LMI.

>Perhaps Doug is thinking of the Spartans, who disdained light troops, for
>the most part, except for ekdromooi (the "runners out" or young men whose
>ranks were sent charging out to run off enemy skirmishers). However, even
>the Spartans employed lots of periokoi and helots as shieldbearers and
>servants and skirmishers,

In general--
Is there good evidence that the LI types were organized into units
that were independant of the Hoplite units in which their masters
served?

Did the LI ever get sent _en masse_ over to the left side where the
woods are, leaving the Hoplites all by themselves in the open?

Or should they for the most part be Detachments of hoplite units?

Does the phrase "light infantry" as used in the sources definitely
mean "LI" or might it mean what Warrior classes as LMI?

Doug

Comments below, drawn from Thucyidedes because that's what I have to
hand at the moment.

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Doug <rockd@p...> wrote:
> > > Depends what you mean by 'dedicated'.
>
> I'm speaking only of what we call LI, not mounted or LMI.

LI is what I had assumed.

...
> In general--
> Is there good evidence that the LI types were organized into units
> that were independant of the Hoplite units in which their masters
> served?
>
> Did the LI ever get sent _en masse_ over to the left side where the
> woods are, leaving the Hoplites all by themselves in the open?

Light troops were typically deployed separately. Going back to
Delium: "the cavalry and the light troops were posted at each wing".

In the action at Syracuse in 415BC [VI: 67, 69] the light troops
operated as skirmish screens "First the stoe-throwers, slingers and
archers on both sides engaged each other in front of the main lines
of battle ..."

>
> Or should they for the most part be Detachments of hoplite units?

The original Athenian expedition had "There were 5,100 hoplites in
all. These included 1,500 Athenian citizens drawn from the regular
calling-up lists and 700 from the lowest property classes (called
thetes), who served as marines, the rest being allied troops, some of
whom were subjects of Athens, though there were also 300 Argives and
250 Mantineans and other mercenary troops. There were altogether 480
archers, eighty of whom were Cretans, 700 slingers from Rhodes, 120
exiles from Megara serving as light troops, and one horse transport
carrying thirty horses. [VI:43]"

>
> Does the phrase "light infantry" as used in the sources definitely
> mean "LI" or might it mean what Warrior classes as LMI?

Basically the Greek sources often use 'psiloi' for light infantry LI
type and 'peltastoi' for LMI. I'll dig up a few examples from
Perseus in due course.

Edward