Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 5/4/2004 17:32:24 Central Daylight Time,
mark@... writes:
Mark:
CinC 2 stands Reg A SHK L,Sh/Reg B HK L
2x Sub 2 stands Reg B SHK L,Sh/HK L
2x 2 stands Reg B SHK L,Sh/HK L
3x 2 stands Irr B SHK L,Sh (2 units false French, 1 unit Gascon)
2x 4 stands Irr C LI S,Sh/B
2x 2 stands Reg C LI LB
2x 2 stands Reg A LHI LB,2HCW,Stakes/LB
2x 6 stands Reg C LMI LB,Sh,Stakes/LB
1x 4 stands Irr C HI 2HCT,Pa/MI JLS
2x 6 elements of ditch>>

Mark, of the two, mine would be much more like yours. You're right about
those brigans - getting them impetuous, they beat a lot of folks. I like them,
as you do, in those lists with S standards...
My only recommended change would be to lose one or two of the Reg K to get
more foot (LB/Brigans).

J


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Mark Stone]

OK, Frank emailed me his provisional "knight-heavy" version of the 100 Year's
War English, and I tweaked it a little bit to provide slightly more balance.
Here are the two versions, first Frank's, and then mine:

Frank:
CinC Reg A SHK L,Sh
Sub Reg B SHK/HK L,Sh/L
Sub
4 units of 6 Reg B SHK/HK L,Sh/L
2 units of 6 Irr B SHK L,Sh
**nine knight units, all at least front rank SHK**
3 units of 8 Reg B LHI 2HCW,LB stakes
8 Reg A LHI 2HCW,LB stakes
**minimum # of LB elements**
2 units of 4 Reg D LI LB
2 units of 8 Irr C LI S,Sh/B
1 six element segment of Ditch
17 units, 3 commands, 6 scouting points, on 1603 points
All elements of LB have stakes.

Frank says, and I quote, "I don't know if it would be a good idea to run
this...but it's an idea."

Mark:
CinC 2 stands Reg A SHK L,Sh/Reg B HK L
2x Sub 2 stands Reg B SHK L,Sh/HK L
2x 2 stands Reg B SHK L,Sh/HK L
3x 2 stands Irr B SHK L,Sh (2 units false French, 1 unit Gascon)
2x 4 stands Irr C LI S,Sh/B
2x 2 stands Reg C LI LB
2x 2 stands Reg A LHI LB,2HCW,Stakes/LB
2x 6 stands Reg C LMI LB,Sh,Stakes/LB
1x 4 stands Irr C HI 2HCT,Pa/MI JLS
2x 6 elements of ditch

Frank's has 9 units of knights, all front rank SHK, which is a fearsome amount
of shock cav to be sending against anyone. On the down side, only 3 of those
units have an easy time being impetuous (the CinC who is Reg A, and the 2 Irr B
units), and there are 4 units that are only Reg B and have no generals. My
thought is that 1 or 2 such units is fine, given that they will find a purpose
by either (a) charging with a general, (b) charging foot already disordered, or
(c) dismounting. 4 units seems to be too much. My version makes more use of the
Irr B SHK, and hence has only two knight units that are both regular and
without generals. My version also takes a bit more LB, and a lot as LMI, with
the intent of holding more frontage. Finally I think the Brigan unit is worth
taking. You can either stick it behind the ditch on one end of your line and
know that that flank is permanently secure, or you can have it roll forward in
the face of a missile-heavy part of the opponent's line, largely oblivious to
missile fire. And if by chance impetuous, it will beat just about anything the
knights can't beat at contact.


-Mark Stone

[John Murphy]

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Mark Stone <mark@d...> wrote:
> Frank:
> CinC Reg A SHK L,Sh
> Sub Reg B SHK/HK L,Sh/L
> Sub
> 4 units of 6 Reg B SHK/HK L,Sh/L
> 2 units of 6 Irr B SHK L,Sh
> **nine knight units, all at least front rank SHK**
> 3 units of 8 Reg B LHI 2HCW,LB stakes
> 8 Reg A LHI 2HCW,LB stakes
> **minimum # of LB elements**
> 2 units of 4 Reg D LI LB
> 2 units of 8 Irr C LI S,Sh/B
> 1 six element segment of Ditch
> 17 units, 3 commands, 6 scouting points, on 1603 points
> All elements of LB have stakes.

Okay, I like this as far as the concept goes. All pretty standard
HYWE stuff just the balance is very much shifted the opposite of
usual. What I do not see is how the LB will able to set the knights
up a target or keep things away the knights do not want to fight. I
presume there is an idea to that. And keeping in mind this is an
attacking army and not a counter-puncher maybe it would be worth a
try.

> Mark:
> CinC 2 stands Reg A SHK L,Sh/Reg B HK L
> 2x Sub 2 stands Reg B SHK L,Sh/HK L
> 2x 2 stands Reg B SHK L,Sh/HK L
> 3x 2 stands Irr B SHK L,Sh (2 units false French, 1 unit Gascon)
> 2x 4 stands Irr C LI S,Sh/B
> 2x 2 stands Reg C LI LB
> 2x 2 stands Reg A LHI LB,2HCW,Stakes/LB
> 2x 6 stands Reg C LMI LB,Sh,Stakes/LB
> 1x 4 stands Irr C HI 2HCT,Pa/MI JLS
> 2x 6 elements of ditch

First, both of you are running LI S,Sh/B. I do not have the list at
the moment but that is not familiar, and the HYWE are very limited in
LI. I thought it was the kerns when I first read it as JLS but that
is not so. Who are these guys?

This army has a lot more firepower and foot obviously. The danger for
me is being mesmerised into thinking I have my typical longbow screen
and not jumping out with the SHK to hit something. If you fall into
that trap you are wasting a lot of points on SHK units that are only
going to see limited use.

Are the brigans really all that useful? Not only close-order but one-
shot irregular shieldless (HtH) foot to boot? I am thinking self-
vaporizing Varangian types here. Wouldn't billmen be better in this
role?

That said I know the "experts" are weighing in in favor of the
brigans. Just not sure quite what the distinction is here.

Good news is I have all this stuff for my HYWE. Poles will require a
new army.

But I have an impulse to give the Poles a try too.

Gotta go, see y'all later tonite.

[scott holder]

Mark, of the two, mine would be much more like yours. You're right about those
brigans - getting them impetuous, they beat a lot of folks. I like them, as you
do, in those lists with S standards...My only recommended change would be to
lose one or two of the Reg K to get more foot (LB/Brigans).

>I think that's the key if you're playing in a cyclic NICT/Open environment.
Frank's list is probably how I'd lean at first glance but then his list is one
reason why elephant armies became the rage for several years, precisely to
totally neutralize this type of list.

>Now, if I was playing in a theme event, list list would be a hoot to run. It
reminds me of Jon's NICT game in Denver oh so many years ago, two knight armies,
I think there were something like 14-15 knight units on the table. They all
charged each other, no whacko die fluctations, and then each side did the usual
EHK on EHK "nothing" in subsequent H-T-H. Fun to watch:):)

>The brigans give you some options and even tho they're Irr C, that's what an
army standard is for:):)

scott