Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

After a break of many years a friend and I are going back into ancients. I
have only just got the new 'Warrior' rule set.Whilst I was pleased to see that
the WRG 7th edition has evolved into another guise. It was disappointing to
find out that the army lists are not complete and I will have to wait for them.

Looking through the new rules I found no mention of the 'LRSCHC'? I hope it
has not been deleted from the army lists? Apart from a few Catafractarii and
Clibanarii the chariots are all that I could find of my old 25mm Late Roman
Army. To find they have been deleted would be a bitter blow. Are they not the
reason why the Romans survived for so long...? :-)

Colonel John Amery

ps. Apologies to the group for the cross posted message 'Armando the Terrible'.
I have only just started using outlook express and by mistake attached another
address. Deborah Wells and Luana Borgia are figure painters in europe, both
very good ;-)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[scott holder]

Looking through the new rules I found no mention of the 'LRSCHC'? I
hope it has not been deleted from the army lists? Apart from a few
Catafractarii and Clibanarii the chariots are all that I could find of
my old 25mm Late Roman Army. To find they have been deleted would be a
bitter blow. Are they not the reason why the Romans survived for so
long...? :-)

>I'm sorry to inform you that the late roman scythed cataphract chariots
will most likely not see the light of day when Imperial Warrior hits the
streets. If, by some remote chance they do (again, I have no intention
at this point of including them), they will be handled via a list rule.

Scott
List Ho

[Paul Georgian]

In a message dated 8/27/02 7:38:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Scott H. writes:


> Looking through the new rules I found no mention of the 'LRSCHC'? I
> hope it has not been deleted from the army lists? Apart from a few
> Catafractarii and Clibanarii the chariots are all that I could find of
> my old 25mm Late Roman Army. To find they have been deleted would be a
> bitter blow. Are they not the reason why the Romans survived for so
> long...?
>
> >I'm sorry to inform you that the late roman scythed cataphract chariots
> will most likely not see the light of day when Imperial Warrior hits the
> streets. If, by some remote chance they do (again, I have no intention
> at this point of including them), they will be handled via a list rule.


GASP! Now Scott, this just won't do. We have documented source evidence for
the LRSCC, including pictures! Don't make me reach for my copy of De Rebus
Bellicus (or whatever it's called). Utilizing the LRSCC on the tabletop has
at least as much historical justification as an all Irr A Blemmye cavalry
force. How do you think the Late Romans stopped those guys? :-)

Paul G


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yeah, Scott. What are you trying to do, redeem the reputation of the Late
Roman players? Do you honestly thing that by denying them Limburger, you
are saving them from accusations of cheese? Give them their LRSCHC, but
gimmick them some way to cost 150 points each, make them a *2, so if you
take them you need 2, and charge full irregular command points. And reduce
their speed. And require detachments of SHI flamethrowers. And stick 3
units of them in the "revised" FW list, too, while you're at it.
Honestly, Scott. Next you will be denying that Leonardo supplied tanks to
the Medicis when FHE decide to take on Renaissance Warrior. (Or was it the
Borgias?)

John the OFM



> -----Original Message-----
> From: PaulByzan@... [mailto:PaulByzan@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 8:28 AM
> To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: Late Roman Scythed Cataphract Heavy Chariot?
>
>
> In a message dated 8/27/02 7:38:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> Scott H. writes:
>
>
> > Looking through the new rules I found no mention of the 'LRSCHC'? I
> > hope it has not been deleted from the army lists? Apart from a few
> > Catafractarii and Clibanarii the chariots are all that I could find of
> > my old 25mm Late Roman Army. To find they have been deleted would be a
> > bitter blow. Are they not the reason why the Romans survived for so
> > long...?
> >
> > >I'm sorry to inform you that the late roman scythed cataphract chariots
> > will most likely not see the light of day when Imperial Warrior hits the
> > streets. If, by some remote chance they do (again, I have no intention
> > at this point of including them), they will be handled via a list rule.
>
>
> GASP! Now Scott, this just won't do. We have documented source
> evidence for
> the LRSCC, including pictures! Don't make me reach for my copy
> of De Rebus
> Bellicus (or whatever it's called). Utilizing the LRSCC on the
> tabletop has
> at least as much historical justification as an all Irr A Blemmye cavalry
> force. How do you think the Late Romans stopped those guys?
>
> Paul G
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> WarriorRules-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

We actually have documented evidence that a late Roman crank thought
of the idea, not that it was ever built or that it actually saw
action in battle.

I'm inclined to think that it >may< have been built (Ammianus has an
intriguing reference in his obituary of Valentinian I that he was an
inventor of weapons, which makes me think one or two of the mostly
daft ideas in the DRB may have been experimented with). However,
that's far from proof.

I guess it really comes down to one's philosophy of list writing as
to whether or not a rather tenuous thing like the currus drepanus
should or should not be included.

I'm curious about these chariots, I have the army in 25mm and even have two
badly painted chariots. I found them kind of worthless, they were IC, very
slow, and just not very effective. As they were expendables, I always
thought they had to be in the front of one of the commands and rush towards
the enemy. Usually I was amused by them as some cheap ID light infantry
laughed at the chariots and outran them back into the brush. Is there some
secret to their use that I just completely missed?

I know that there are historical references for these chariots being
proposed. To me, they should be in the list as a proposed troop type for
players to experiment with and the list notes should explain their history
and proposed use. Personally, I think some officer somewhere would have
built one or two, tried them, and realized what a waste of time these things
are.

Jamie White



----- Original Message -----
From: <PaulByzan@...>
To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 8:27 AM
Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: Late Roman Scythed Cataphract Heavy Chariot?


> In a message dated 8/27/02 7:38:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Scott H.
writes:
>
>
> > Looking through the new rules I found no mention of the 'LRSCHC'? I
> > hope it has not been deleted from the army lists? Apart from a few
> > Catafractarii and Clibanarii the chariots are all that I could find of
> > my old 25mm Late Roman Army. To find they have been deleted would be a
> > bitter blow. Are they not the reason why the Romans survived for so
> > long...?
> >
> > >I'm sorry to inform you that the late roman scythed cataphract chariots
> > will most likely not see the light of day when Imperial Warrior hits the
> > streets. If, by some remote chance they do (again, I have no intention
> > at this point of including them), they will be handled via a list rule.
>
>
> GASP! Now Scott, this just won't do. We have documented source evidence
for
> the LRSCC, including pictures! Don't make me reach for my copy of De
Rebus
> Bellicus (or whatever it's called). Utilizing the LRSCC on the tabletop
has
> at least as much historical justification as an all Irr A Blemmye cavalry
> force. How do you think the Late Romans stopped those guys?
>
> Paul G
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> WarriorRules-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: Holder, Scott <FHWA>
To: IPM Return requested (Receipt notification requested)
Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Late Roman Scythed Cataphract Heavy Chariot?


Looking through the new rules I found no mention of the 'LRSCHC'? I
hope it has not been deleted from the army lists? Apart from a few
Catafractarii and Clibanarii the chariots are all that I could find of
my old 25mm Late Roman Army. To find they have been deleted would be a
bitter blow. Are they not the reason why the Romans survived for so
long...? :-)

>I'm sorry to inform you that the late roman scythed cataphract chariots
will most likely not see the light of day when Imperial Warrior hits the
streets. If, by some remote chance they do (again, I have no intention
at this point of including them), they will be handled via a list rule.

I am surprised at this decision Mr.Holder. I would be interested to hear
your reasoning on why not to include the chariots?

To quote from the old WRG lists: "The scythed chariots were invented
during the reign of Valentinian I. They suffered from a poor power/ weight ratio
problem not completely solved by successive redesigns, and were probably never
used in action." I do not feel this is sufficient grounds for not including
them. By the very nature of the lists, they are designed for people to
experiment with historical armies.

To use an American expression, by including the chariots "all the bases are
covered." You satisfy those people who only use historical units and opponents
as they will simply not include the chariots in their armies. There inclusion
in the lists allow players such as myself who like to experiment the chance to
do so. Plus they have been in the lists for close to 30 years why change it
now?

Colonel John Amery












[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----
From: Jamie White
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 9:00 PM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Re: Late Roman Scythed Cataphract Heavy Chariot?


I'm curious about these chariots, I have the army in 25mm and even have two
badly painted chariots. I found them kind of worthless, they were IC, very
slow, and just not very effective. As they were expendables, I always
thought they had to be in the front of one of the commands and rush towards
the enemy. Usually I was amused by them as some cheap ID light infantry
laughed at the chariots and outran them back into the brush. Is there some
secret to their use that I just completely missed?

As you say they are just to slow to be used like normal Hch. I tended to
hold them back and only commit them during the latter stages of a battle. A
nice combination was to use them in front of the Catafractarii, a double hammer
blow if you like. By using them late in the battle opponents often had to face
the chariots rather than have the luxury of continually evading. Plus at 24 pts
each I did not think they were that expensive.

Colonel John Amery



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Phil Gardocki]

Since the colonel has a UK email address, he is probably unfamiliar with USA
addenda that require expendables to be at the front of their commands, and to
have rush orders. With most Scythed chariots, I resign myself that they
will **never** touch anything you want them to. So I plan for them to be
skirmish scrubbers, getting my enemy going in the right direction.

Phil


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Chris Damour]

Phil,
Actually, the "be at the front of the army and rush" requirement is a
Barkerism. He put it in "the other rules" <<grin>> in the 7.5 revision (I
think, might have been 7.4 instead...).
My scythed chariots never were much use beyond been mobile unease
causers. I had finally concluded that a 16 man Peltast unit was more
usefull in my Seleucid list.

On Thu, 29 Aug 2002 PHGamer@... wrote:
> Since the colonel has a UK email address, he is probably unfamiliar with USA
> addenda that require expendables to be at the front of their commands, and to
> have rush orders. With most Scythed chariots, I resign myself that they
> will **never** touch anything you want them to. So I plan for them to be
> skirmish scrubbers, getting my enemy going in the right direction.
>
> Phil

--
Chris Damour