Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[John Murphy]

I am wondering about later sub-period within the Polish list. It
turns out I can do this one almost the same and it actually has some
interesting added features (well, one anyway).

Here, for reference, is what is in common either way...
6x Knights/Retainers 2E Irr B/C SHK/HK L,Sh @ 109
1x Mounted Crossbowmen 2E Irr C LC CB @ 41
1x Archers 10E Irr C LI B,Sh @ 85
2x Lithuanians 4E Irr B LC L,JLS,Sh @ 89
1x Tartars 2E Reg D B @ 30
1x Wallachs or Moldaves 6E Irr C LC JLS,B,Sh @ 109

Here is the rest for the middle sub-period...
1x CinC/Retainers 2E Irr B/C SHK/HK L,Sh (PA std) @ 181
1x Sub/Retainers 2E Irr B/C SHK/HK L,Sh (P std) @ 121
3x Tartars 2E Reg C LC B,Sh/B @ 38
1x Cumans 6E Irr C LC JLS,B,Sh/B @ 91

And here is the change in these same figs for the late sub-period...
1x CinC/Retainers 2E Reg A/C SHK/HK L,Sh (PA std) @ 208
1x Sub/Retainers 2E Reg A/C SHK/HK L,Sh (P std) @ 138
3x Tartars 2E Reg D LC B @ 30
1x Cumans 6E Irr C LC B @ 73

As you can see the points are squeeky tight here, even worse in the
later period as more gets sucked into those SHK.

But with a little adjustment to the LC (placing a greater burden on
the Lithuanians for combat) I can have a couple regular general SHK
units to add a bit of maneuverability and flexibility (and never-
uneasiness) to the shock force without losing any impetuosity.
Removing the JLS from the C LC might have the added benefit of
removing the temptation to use them like the Lithuanians they are
not. Removing the shield from them (and the Tartars) doesn't
necessarily hurt since they have to shoot to suck up the enemy fire
away from the SHK anyway.

Still, I kind of like the idea of using the other LC for cleaning up
enemy lights too. Two 4E units isn't going to get them all though
they can certainly tackle the most obstinate.

But heck it is almost the same figures (just a few JLS or Sh
difference) so I guess I can try it either way and make up my mind
after I see how it plays out.

Tactics questions:

At 95 points what are the odds of actually outscouting someone? What
is a good way with a shock army like this to take advantage of that
(I would guess choosing an SHK-vulnerable point on the pre-setup
enemy line to concentrate on and getting there very quickly with
everything I've got, maybe taking advantage by deploying for optimal
first-bound charges against any lights caught force-marched)? And
what in the world am I going to do trying to figure out 6 different
flavors of LC while this is going on, sheesh!

Maybe send me thoughts offline if it is not of general interest.

[Ewan McNay]

J. Murphy wrote:
> At 95 points what are the odds of actually outscouting someone? What
> is a good way with a shock army like this to take advantage of that
> (I would guess choosing an SHK-vulnerable point on the pre-setup
> enemy line to concentrate on and getting there very quickly with
> everything I've got, maybe taking advantage by deploying for optimal
> first-bound charges against any lights caught force-marched)? And
> what in the world am I going to do trying to figure out 6 different
> flavors of LC while this is going on, sheesh!

On the specific point: 95 scouts gets you a decent chance of
outscouting opponents. My Seleucids, for instance, had ~30 so
you'd get them; you might even (although less likely) outscout
some Romans. The most obvious thing to do after having
outscouted, and assuming that the opponent does not have a huge
skirmish line, might be to rush the Tartars forward from a
forced-march startpoint and pin as far forward as you can.

The '6 different flavours' comment hit something I've been
thinking about, which is the benefit of heterogeneity in units.
That is, usually there are different roles to fill in any giveen
battle (unless faciing a highly homogenous opponent), and so it's
likeely that having slightly different units armaments, morale,
etc. is a good thing as it allows you to 'titrate' the unit to
the situation. However, that adds a level of complexity and
extra cognitive demand, and that's a significant tradeoff. Just
something I've been pondering.

[Mark Stone]

Quoting "WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com" <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>:

> Tactics questions:
>
> At 95 points what are the odds of actually outscouting someone? What
> is a good way with a shock army like this to take advantage of that
> (I would guess choosing an SHK-vulnerable point on the pre-setup
> enemy line to concentrate on and getting there very quickly with
> everything I've got, maybe taking advantage by deploying for optimal
> first-bound charges against any lights caught force-marched)? And
> what in the world am I going to do trying to figure out 6 different
> flavors of LC while this is going on, sheesh!
>
> Maybe send me thoughts offline if it is not of general interest.
>

Frank Gilson did an analysis of scouting points in last year's NICT; it's posted
in the archive here somewhere. The gist of it was that the average number of
scouting points for armies in the NICT was 40-something. Thus you are not going
to outscout most armies. This is all the more true since you're talking about
15mm (the NICT is all 25mm).

Outscouting someone has some definite advantages, but it takes so many scouting
points that it's hard to make it a goal.

Having _more_ scouting points also has advantages. Yes, your opponent can force
march farther and place ambushes, but remember that he has to place a command
first during deployment. This is where it's worth giving some thought to how
many generals you have. I've played armies that have 4 generals and 60+
scouting points, and 90% of the time I'm able to see my opponent's whole
deployment while only putting down a couple of small commands myself. If I make
one of these my reserve command then I'm tipping my hand very little and
getting to see my opponent's entire deployment.


-Mark Stone

[Ewan McNay]

Mark Stone wrote:

> Quoting "WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com" <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>:
>
>
>>Tactics questions:
>>
>>At 95 points what are the odds of actually outscouting someone? What
>>is a good way with a shock army like this to take advantage of that
>>(I would guess choosing an SHK-vulnerable point on the pre-setup
>>enemy line to concentrate on and getting there very quickly with
>>everything I've got, maybe taking advantage by deploying for optimal
>>first-bound charges against any lights caught force-marched)? And
>>what in the world am I going to do trying to figure out 6 different
>>flavors of LC while this is going on, sheesh!
>>
>>Maybe send me thoughts offline if it is not of general interest.
>>
>
> Frank Gilson did an analysis of scouting points in last year's NICT; it's
posted
> in the archive here somewhere. The gist of it was that the average number of
> scouting points for armies in the NICT was 40-something. Thus you are not
going
> to outscout most armies. This is all the more true since you're talking about
> 15mm (the NICT is all 25mm).

I suspect, too, that there's a somewhat bimodal distribution:
something like a HYW or Inca you're going to outscout anyway,
something like an Illyrian you'll never outscout. One of my
objectives (a minor one, granted) with the Seleucids was to avoid
being outscouted by armies I was concerned about facing; the
biggest loss other than initiative in some cases (and again we
get into heterogeneity - an Incan likely doesn't care whether you
can see what the deployment is, b/c it's the same for much of the
table) is the extra 120p you're forced back into the table.

> Having _more_ scouting points also has advantages. Yes, your opponent can
force
> march farther and place ambushes, but remember that he has to place a command
> first during deployment. This is where it's worth giving some thought to how
> many generals you have. I've played armies that have 4 generals and 60+
> scouting points, and 90% of the time I'm able to see my opponent's whole
> deployment while only putting down a couple of small commands myself. If I
make
> one of these my reserve command then I'm tipping my hand very little and
> getting to see my opponent's entire deployment.

Right. Frank also does something like this with the Gupta that I
faced. It's less of an issue if your opponent is using mobile
and/or regular troops, and/or has a decent light screen, as
redeployment becomes easier. If none of those apply, being
outscouted or just 'overscouted' can be deadly.

[John Murphy]

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Ewan McNay <ewan.mcnay@y...>
wrote:
> The most obvious thing to do after having
> outscouted, and assuming that the opponent does not have a huge
> skirmish line, might be to rush the Tartars forward from a
> forced-march startpoint and pin as far forward as you can.

Just the Tartars? This is because being Regs they can back out of
trouble and also they are the least useable for anti-LI/LC shock? Are
4 2E units enough for this without using one or both of the 6E Irreg
LC units? (understand the desire to keep the 4E Liths fresh, unless
after seeing enemy forced marches they can be set up to charge
advantageously on the first bound an opportunitu which may not be
there later)

> the benefit of heterogeneity in units.
> adds a level of complexity and
> extra cognitive demand, and that's a significant tradeoff.

Yes, for some more than others <g>. Ah, Ewan, you are just too much
of a nice guy!

I have in the past tried to keep the numbers of types of units to a
minimum of what I thought was needed. Also I have preferred multi-
role units rather than specialists. All for the
cognitive "efficiency" reasons (we'll take it easy on me here -
although truthfully there is _also_ a _real_ cognitive efficiency
aspect to consider) although also multi-role can save points given
that they are really good enough to do the job.

But there is the rub. As you play better and better opponents, and
better and better armies, it is harder to fill roles with troops that
are not perfectly set-up for them, and a lot of multi-role troops in
homogeneous armies fall off in capability in some crucial area at
some point.

So yeah, the 6 flavors of LC (though it really needs only be about 3,
the list creates the extra confsion but beyond simple ad-hoc
opportunities, best for planning just to treat them as 3 types
anyway) are something I am just going to have to get used to,
together with possibly 2 flavors of SHK now, plus dismounting. That
is a lot, cognitively, to handle. But the motivation is there with
these guys and hopefully it will put a future edge on what is already
probably my own tactically best (and most experienced) part of the
game.

Then using different kinds of shooting (angled overlapping zones of
fire versus full frontal barrage) will be next. Mastering close-order
foot, except dismounted knights, will wait for now. LI, well who
knows if I will ever really get that one although the recent
discussions have helped in unexpected ways.