Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Bill Chriss]

Two/three (depending on how you count them) easy questions for Scott:

1. Later Greek Hoplite: Main list already provides more Reg C peltasts
than one can use. thus I am confused by the ** troops under the
Thessalian sublist meant to represent the contingent of Jason of
Pherae. Were they inetended by you or Bill to be Reg B, and the Reg C
there is just a typo? Also, why can't they be allies to a Theban army,
since Jason was in fact an ally of Epaminondas of Thebes and
accompanied him on his Peloponessian campaign. Not a big deal in game
terms, just wondering if this should be dealt with errata-wise.

2. I assume you doubled the cost of pigs from 20 to 40 points on
purpose to account for them being so much cooler than regular animal
herds, right?


Greek (who paraphrases Robert Duvall in 'Apocalypse Now' by saying 'I love
the smell of bacon in the morning')

[Bill Chriss]

<sigh>, More problems....

I still want to know the answers, but must correct a misstatement on my
part. Jason was not part of the Peloponnesian campaigns. He was at Leuctra
as a Theban ally but apparently arrived too late to take part in the
battle. Perhaps this is why he can't be a Theban ally, although in real
life he was one (at least nominally). See Xenophon, Hellenika VI.4.19-33.
My thanks to the listmember who pointed out this mistake offlist.



Two/three (depending on how you count them) easy questions for Scott:

1. Later Greek Hoplite: Main list already provides more Reg C peltasts
than one can use. Thus I am confused by the ** troops under the
Thessalian sublist meant to represent the contingent of Jason of
Pherae. Were they inetended by you or Bill to be Reg B, and the Reg C
there is just a typo? Also, why can't they be allies to a Theban army,
since Jason was in fact an ally of Epaminondas of Thebes (at least for a
while)? Not a big deal in game terms, just wondering if this should be
dealt with errata-wise.

2. I assume you doubled the cost of pigs from 20 to 40 points on
purpose to account for them being so much cooler than regular animal
herds, right?


Greek (who paraphrases Robert Duvall in 'Apocalypse Now' by saying 'I love
the smell of bacon in the morning...It smells like....VICTORY')

[Bill Low]

(Long post to follow … anyone not interested in the period or the
question might want to just skip it.)

Greek – Thanks for clearing up the bit about Jason accompanying
Epaminondas. There are always lots of factors that go into list-
writing decisions, but here are some answers to your questions:

Peltasts. There are lots of Peltasts in the main list, but few of
them are mandatory. If a gamer wants to play Jason of Pherai, then
he is required to bring at least 12E more, and he can (depending on
points limit) bring a lot more than a main list army. (BTW,
essentially the same situation arises in the Spartan and Phokian
sublists, which also have specific min/max numbers for extra
Peltasts.)

Thessalian Allied Contingent. The notes allow a Thessalian army to
have Theban allies, and a Theban army to have Thessalian allies but
not Jason. This reflects the traditionally good relations between
the two, with the added effect that Jason must be CinC in any
instances in which his Thessalians and any Thebans operate together
as allies. Here's the reasoning:

1. Jason succeeded his father Lycophron as tyrant of Pherai, a
relatively small city just north of modern Volos in the southeastern
part of Thessaly.

2. Jason spent the 370's extending his influence over the other
cities of Thessaly, many of which resisted his hegemony. Among the
last of them ... and one of the two "great" cities of Thessaly ...
was Pharsalos, then under the leadership of an upright citizen named
Polydamas. Polydamas appealed to Sparta for assistance against
Jason, but was reluctantly refused due to Spartan resources then
being over-stretched. Polydamas then threw in with Jason, who was
thereupon elected Tagos (and war leader) of all Thessaly.

3. Jason's career mirrored that of the tyrant Dionysios of Syracuse
and foreshadowed that of king Phillip II of Macedon. He was a good
general, hard-working and far-seeing. He had a standing force of
6000 mercenaries, and claimed to be able to call up something like
8,000 cavalry and 10,000 hoplites from among the Thessalians. For a
while, his was the greatest power in Greece. He is said to have
aspired not only to the hegemony of Greece, but to have planned a
campaign against the Great King to overthrow the Persian Empire.
Sound familiar?

4. Epaminondas is one of those guys who may appear to be more
important now, in retrospect, than he did at the time. There were a
number of prominent men in his circle, and constitutionally he was
only "first among equals." He was not a tyrant, and was not the
ruler of Thebes; in fact he was out of favor (and office) for part of
the period of the Theban hegemony. While Epaminondas was a
remarkable man, Jason would not have felt at all inferior to him;
quite the opposite.

5. Jason was allied with Thebes (not with Epaminondas), but it was
an uneasy affair and driven by tactical needs more than anything
else. Thebes was anxious to have his goodwill, both to overawe the
Phokians and because it could be used against the Athenians, both
traditional enemies of the Thebans. Jason was happy to have Thebes
standing between him and the Spartans, who had traditional interests
in Thessaly and to whom Thessalian opponents looked for support.

6. Jason did not particularly need the Thebans, and he tended to
threaten Theban interests in Thessaly. Thebes could do without his
friendship, but only if it were willing to invest the time and
resources needed to support other Thessalian cities willing to act as
a counter-weight to an over-mighty Pherai, which Thebes was unable to
do while still threatened by the Spartans. Jason was not in any
sense subordinate to Thebes; Thebes was if anything probably
marginally inferior in power to Jason. Neither was in control of the
other.

7. They never took the field together as allies.

8. The pivotal battle of Leuktra, in which the Thebans inflicted an
epoch-ending defeat on the Spartans and killed one of their kings,
took place in July 371 BC. Jason showed up after the battle,
nominally as an ally of Thebes but widely suspected of playing his
own game and intriguing to secure a safe retreat for the defeated
Spartans, in order to make sure that they would survive as a counter-
weight to an over-mighty Thebes.

9. Jason was murdered by conspirators, apparently motivated by
private grievances, in Spring or early Summer 370 BC, cutting short
the greatness but not the dynasty of Pherai. (Alexander was an
indirect beneficiary of the act, but not the instigator.)

10. Epaminondas' first invasion of the Peloponnesos took place in
the winter of 370-369 BC, and so Jason could not of course have taken
part.

12. After Jason's death, Pherai was ruled by his more or less
incompetent relatives, who lost control of much of the rest of
Thessaly. With Spartan power contained, Thebes was free to turn to
Thessaly. Alexander of Pherai treacherously seized Pelopidas, the
friend and colleague of Epaminondas, during a visit and held him a
prisoner. The Thebans sent two expeditions against Pherai, securing
the release of Pelopidas, the neutrality of Pherai and the freedom
(more or less) of the other Thessalians ... and ultimately control of
Pherai itself and the minor territories then under its power. In
short, open hostility and even war until Pherai was reduced. All
after Jason's murder, but also covered by the disallowance of the
Pheraian tyrant's allied contingent in a Theban army.

Again, we allow Thebans and Thessalians to be allies in Later
Hoplite, but only if Jason is the boss (CinC). A "non-Jasonian"
Thessalian allied contingent could by used by a Theban army to model,
for example, Pelopidas' expeditions in support of other Thesslian
cities.

Thanks for your interest and many contributions.

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, hrisikos@D... wrote:
>
> <sigh>, More problems....
>
> I still want to know the answers, but must correct a misstatement
on my
> part. Jason was not part of the Peloponnesian campaigns. He was at
Leuctra
> as a Theban ally but apparently arrived too late to take part in the
> battle. Perhaps this is why he can't be a Theban ally, although in
real
> life he was one (at least nominally). See Xenophon, Hellenika
VI.4.19-33.
> My thanks to the listmember who pointed out this mistake offlist.
>
>
>
> Two/three (depending on how you count them) easy questions for
Scott:
>
> 1. Later Greek Hoplite: Main list already provides more Reg C
peltasts
> than one can use. Thus I am confused by the ** troops under the
> Thessalian sublist meant to represent the contingent of Jason of
> Pherae. Were they inetended by you or Bill to be Reg B, and the Reg
C
> there is just a typo? Also, why can't they be allies to a Theban
army,
> since Jason was in fact an ally of Epaminondas of Thebes (at least
for a
> while)? Not a big deal in game terms, just wondering if this should
be
> dealt with errata-wise.
>
> 2. I assume you doubled the cost of pigs from 20 to 40 points on
> purpose to account for them being so much cooler than regular animal
> herds, right?
>
>
> Greek (who paraphrases Robert Duvall in 'Apocalypse Now' by
saying 'I love
> the smell of bacon in the morning...It smells like....VICTORY')

[Ewan McNay]

hrisikos@... wrote:

> Bill, thank you very much for the time and effort that went into this.

As a complete non-Hellene, let me second this. Scott noted, entirely
accurately, that I care much less about the historical reality of the game
than about the game play. Even I, however, *greatly* appreciate the list
notes and responses like Bill's here. I'd be all for expanding them,
Scott, in a universal list book.

[Ewan McNay]

Ah, but I have a long and dishonourable history of playing Seleucids...

hrisikos@... wrote:

>> hrisikos@... wrote:
>>
>> > Bill, thank you very much for the time and effort that went into this.
>>
>> As a complete non-Hellene, let me second this. Scott noted, entirely
>> accurately, that I care much less about the historical reality of the
>>game
>> than about the game play. Even I, however, *greatly* appreciate the list
>> notes and responses like Bill's here. I'd be all for expanding them,
>> Scott, in a universal list book.
>>
>
>
>
> Careful my friend, we may make you an honorary Hellene as well! If only
> you weren't so apt to Medize by playing Sassanids!
>
>
> Greek
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Bill Chriss]

> Again, we allow Thebans and Thessalians to be allies in Later
> Hoplite, but only if Jason is the boss (CinC). A
> &quot;non-Jasonian&quot;
> Thessalian allied contingent could by used by a Theban army to model,
> for example, Pelopidas' expeditions in support of other Thesslian
> cities.
>
> Thanks for your interest and many contributions.
>

Bill, thank you very much for the time and effort that went into this.
This is an incredibly well-reasoned and informative post. Anybody who
skipped it missed a great history lesson. I completely understand the
reasoning here, although I'm not yet convinced that Epaminondas would let
Jason (or anyone else) boss him around! But hey, I'm prejudiced in his
favor and I respect your analysis, which is without fallacy.

A couple of follow-ups (and again, in game terms they don't matter because
Epaminondas can have as many Reg C peltasts as he wants without Jason as
an ally! In fact, I'll probably play this list as Epaminondas with
Pelopidas as his subgeneral plus one non-Jasonian Thessalian ally-gen).

1. I assume from your answer that your intent was that Jason's band also
be Reg C, which is fine by me--just checking;

2. If I'm reading the list right, another alternative would be to call my
list 'generic Greek' and then Epaminondas and Jason can both be ally
generals of the mythical CinC, right?

3. Moving forward chronologically, what about my pigs. Did you guys decide
to raise their cost to 40 points from 20, or was that an erratus?

Again, great work to improve the hobby. I suspect you must be a Hellene,
and if you're not, we'll make you an honorary one!


Greek

[Bill Chriss]

> hrisikos@... wrote:
>
> > Bill, thank you very much for the time and effort that went into this.
>
> As a complete non-Hellene, let me second this. Scott noted, entirely
> accurately, that I care much less about the historical reality of the
> game
> than about the game play. Even I, however, *greatly* appreciate the list
> notes and responses like Bill's here. I'd be all for expanding them,
> Scott, in a universal list book.
>


Careful my friend, we may make you an honorary Hellene as well! If only
you weren't so apt to Medize by playing Sassanids!


Greek

[Bill Chriss]

> Ah, but I have a long and dishonourable history of playing
> Seleucids...
>


Excellent. That would be semi-Greek, as we say here in Texas.


"I love the smell of bacon in the morning. It smells like...victory."
Greek

As a Roman player I always used to call the Macedonians wanna-be Greeks and
Seleucids were just Asian wanna-be Greeks.........of course I used to call them
this right before they kicked my Roman butt (always hated those chariots with
the big blades............)

:)

hrisikos@... wrote:
> Ah, but I have a long and dishonourable history of playing
> Seleucids...
>


Excellent. That would be semi-Greek, as we say here in Texas.


"I love the smell of bacon in the morning. It smells like...victory."
Greek



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Bill Low]

Thanks, Greek.

Yes ... a generic Greek army can have both Thessalian and Theban
allies ... 'though your expressed predisposition in favor of Thebans
is probably going to preclude that option, since you would
be "stuck" with a lot of non-Boiotian (and therefore not eligible
for the Theban-led upgrade) Hoplites ... and, yes, you don't have to
go to the sublists to get plenty of Peltasts ... in fact, it's a bit
of a "penalty" to opt to play one of these sublist armies unless you
are committed to Peltasts as a basic troop type for your army.
That's what those sublists are all about, and the Hoplites have to
take a back seat in such armies.

One could make a case for a Reg B upgrade for Jason's Mercenary
Peltasts, but in general we have tried to be conservative in
allowing the morale upgrade, and have usually looked for some
special circumstances (vice the "Impious" upgrade for the Phokian
Mercenary Peltasts) before allowing it. The hurdle has something to
do with how you view the standard GI version of the troop type ...
in the case of Mercenaries, it is generally that they are
professional ... which means technically proficient, but not
particularly well-motivated. That seems to fit Jason's mercenaries
pretty well, esp. since they (unlike the Phokian Mercenary Peltasts)
did not participate as a body in any major battle that would have
tested their commitment. The Phokians after all beat Phillip of
Macedon ... of all people ... twice ... before going down to a
catastrophic defeat at the Crocus Field. Overall, we are
comfortable with Reg C for Jason's boys. It's not an insult.

We appreciate your interest in this era and these troop types ...
which are not everyone's cup of tea. Thanks.

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, hrisikos@D... wrote:
>
> > Again, we allow Thebans and Thessalians to be allies in Later
> > Hoplite, but only if Jason is the boss (CinC). A
> > &quot;non-Jasonian&quot;
> > Thessalian allied contingent could by used by a Theban army to
model,
> > for example, Pelopidas' expeditions in support of other
Thesslian
> > cities.
> >
> > Thanks for your interest and many contributions.
> >
>
> Bill, thank you very much for the time and effort that went into
this.
> This is an incredibly well-reasoned and informative post. Anybody
who
> skipped it missed a great history lesson. I completely understand
the
> reasoning here, although I'm not yet convinced that Epaminondas
would let
> Jason (or anyone else) boss him around! But hey, I'm prejudiced in
his
> favor and I respect your analysis, which is without fallacy.
>
> A couple of follow-ups (and again, in game terms they don't matter
because
> Epaminondas can have as many Reg C peltasts as he wants without
Jason as
> an ally! In fact, I'll probably play this list as Epaminondas with
> Pelopidas as his subgeneral plus one non-Jasonian Thessalian ally-
gen).
>
> 1. I assume from your answer that your intent was that Jason's
band also
> be Reg C, which is fine by me--just checking;
>
> 2. If I'm reading the list right, another alternative would be to
call my
> list 'generic Greek' and then Epaminondas and Jason can both be
ally
> generals of the mythical CinC, right?
>
> 3. Moving forward chronologically, what about my pigs. Did you
guys decide
> to raise their cost to 40 points from 20, or was that an erratus?
>
> Again, great work to improve the hobby. I suspect you must be a
Hellene,
> and if you're not, we'll make you an honorary one!
>
>
> Greek

[Craig Scott]

Very fun and diligent work! Jason was the "beginning" of a force
filling the vacuum left during and after the Peloponnesian wars...
From an unrepentant Persophile and Medizer (o:

Craig


--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "tabletop06897" <lowclan@m...>
wrote:
> (Long post to follow … anyone not interested in the period or
the
> question might want to just skip it.)
>
> Greek – Thanks for clearing up the bit about Jason accompanying
> Epaminondas. There are always lots of factors that go into list-
> writing decisions, but here are some answers to your questions:
>
> Peltasts. There are lots of Peltasts in the main list, but few of
> them are mandatory. If a gamer wants to play Jason of Pherai,
then
> he is required to bring at least 12E more, and he can (depending
on
> points limit) bring a lot more than a main list army. (BTW,
> essentially the same situation arises in the Spartan and Phokian
> sublists, which also have specific min/max numbers for extra
> Peltasts.)
>
> Thessalian Allied Contingent. The notes allow a Thessalian army
to
> have Theban allies, and a Theban army to have Thessalian allies
but
> not Jason. This reflects the traditionally good relations between
> the two, with the added effect that Jason must be CinC in any
> instances in which his Thessalians and any Thebans operate
together
> as allies. Here's the reasoning:
>
> 1. Jason succeeded his father Lycophron as tyrant of Pherai, a
> relatively small city just north of modern Volos in the
southeastern
> part of Thessaly.
>
> 2. Jason spent the 370's extending his influence over the other
> cities of Thessaly, many of which resisted his hegemony. Among
the
> last of them ... and one of the two "great" cities of Thessaly ...
> was Pharsalos, then under the leadership of an upright citizen
named
> Polydamas. Polydamas appealed to Sparta for assistance against
> Jason, but was reluctantly refused due to Spartan resources then
> being over-stretched. Polydamas then threw in with Jason, who was
> thereupon elected Tagos (and war leader) of all Thessaly.
>
> 3. Jason's career mirrored that of the tyrant Dionysios of
Syracuse
> and foreshadowed that of king Phillip II of Macedon. He was a
good
> general, hard-working and far-seeing. He had a standing force of
> 6000 mercenaries, and claimed to be able to call up something like
> 8,000 cavalry and 10,000 hoplites from among the Thessalians. For
a
> while, his was the greatest power in Greece. He is said to have
> aspired not only to the hegemony of Greece, but to have planned a
> campaign against the Great King to overthrow the Persian Empire.
> Sound familiar?
>
> 4. Epaminondas is one of those guys who may appear to be more
> important now, in retrospect, than he did at the time. There were
a
> number of prominent men in his circle, and constitutionally he was
> only "first among equals." He was not a tyrant, and was not the
> ruler of Thebes; in fact he was out of favor (and office) for part
of
> the period of the Theban hegemony. While Epaminondas was a
> remarkable man, Jason would not have felt at all inferior to him;
> quite the opposite.
>
> 5. Jason was allied with Thebes (not with Epaminondas), but it
was
> an uneasy affair and driven by tactical needs more than anything
> else. Thebes was anxious to have his goodwill, both to overawe
the
> Phokians and because it could be used against the Athenians, both
> traditional enemies of the Thebans. Jason was happy to have
Thebes
> standing between him and the Spartans, who had traditional
interests
> in Thessaly and to whom Thessalian opponents looked for support.
>
> 6. Jason did not particularly need the Thebans, and he tended to
> threaten Theban interests in Thessaly. Thebes could do without
his
> friendship, but only if it were willing to invest the time and
> resources needed to support other Thessalian cities willing to act
as
> a counter-weight to an over-mighty Pherai, which Thebes was unable
to
> do while still threatened by the Spartans. Jason was not in any
> sense subordinate to Thebes; Thebes was if anything probably
> marginally inferior in power to Jason. Neither was in control of
the
> other.
>
> 7. They never took the field together as allies.
>
> 8. The pivotal battle of Leuktra, in which the Thebans inflicted
an
> epoch-ending defeat on the Spartans and killed one of their kings,
> took place in July 371 BC. Jason showed up after the battle,
> nominally as an ally of Thebes but widely suspected of playing his
> own game and intriguing to secure a safe retreat for the defeated
> Spartans, in order to make sure that they would survive as a
counter-
> weight to an over-mighty Thebes.
>
> 9. Jason was murdered by conspirators, apparently motivated by
> private grievances, in Spring or early Summer 370 BC, cutting
short
> the greatness but not the dynasty of Pherai. (Alexander was an
> indirect beneficiary of the act, but not the instigator.)
>
> 10. Epaminondas' first invasion of the Peloponnesos took place in
> the winter of 370-369 BC, and so Jason could not of course have
taken
> part.
>
> 12. After Jason's death, Pherai was ruled by his more or less
> incompetent relatives, who lost control of much of the rest of
> Thessaly. With Spartan power contained, Thebes was free to turn
to
> Thessaly. Alexander of Pherai treacherously seized Pelopidas, the
> friend and colleague of Epaminondas, during a visit and held him a
> prisoner. The Thebans sent two expeditions against Pherai,
securing
> the release of Pelopidas, the neutrality of Pherai and the freedom
> (more or less) of the other Thessalians ... and ultimately control
of
> Pherai itself and the minor territories then under its power. In
> short, open hostility and even war until Pherai was reduced. All
> after Jason's murder, but also covered by the disallowance of the
> Pheraian tyrant's allied contingent in a Theban army.
>
> Again, we allow Thebans and Thessalians to be allies in Later
> Hoplite, but only if Jason is the boss (CinC). A "non-Jasonian"
> Thessalian allied contingent could by used by a Theban army to
model,
> for example, Pelopidas' expeditions in support of other Thesslian
> cities.
>
> Thanks for your interest and many contributions.
>
> --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, hrisikos@D... wrote:
> >
> > <sigh>, More problems....
> >
> > I still want to know the answers, but must correct a
misstatement
> on my
> > part. Jason was not part of the Peloponnesian campaigns. He was
at
> Leuctra
> > as a Theban ally but apparently arrived too late to take part in
the
> > battle. Perhaps this is why he can't be a Theban ally, although
in
> real
> > life he was one (at least nominally). See Xenophon, Hellenika
> VI.4.19-33.
> > My thanks to the listmember who pointed out this mistake offlist.
> >
> >
> >
> > Two/three (depending on how you count them) easy questions for
> Scott:
> >
> > 1. Later Greek Hoplite: Main list already provides more Reg
C
> peltasts
> > than one can use. Thus I am confused by the ** troops under the
> > Thessalian sublist meant to represent the contingent of Jason of
> > Pherae. Were they inetended by you or Bill to be Reg B, and the
Reg
> C
> > there is just a typo? Also, why can't they be allies to a Theban
> army,
> > since Jason was in fact an ally of Epaminondas of Thebes (at
least
> for a
> > while)? Not a big deal in game terms, just wondering if this
should
> be
> > dealt with errata-wise.
> >
> > 2. I assume you doubled the cost of pigs from 20 to 40
points on
> > purpose to account for them being so much cooler than regular
animal
> > herds, right?
> >
> >
> > Greek (who paraphrases Robert Duvall in 'Apocalypse Now' by
> saying 'I love
> > the smell of bacon in the morning...It smells like....VICTORY')