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logistics

 
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Mark Stone
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Posts: 2076
Location: Buckley, WA

PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:25 am    Post subject: logistics


--- On Arpil 2 Scott said: ---

> You talk logistics to most people and their eyes roll back into their
> heads or to quote General Colt from Kelly's Heroes "We got logistics
> coming out our ears!"
>
> But, the above book is one of the easiest reads and one of the best
> primers in logistics you'll ever find. And it's about Alexander!
> This book should be in everybody's library.

25 years ago, reading Van Creveld convinced me that if you're not serious about
understanding logistics, then you're not serious about understanding military
history. To site my favorite, albeit out of period, example:

The Battle of Kursk during WWII is the largest tank battle humankind has ever
had. Add up the following facts, and draw your own conclusion:
- During the battle, the front line of active fighting moved back and forth 200
miles over several days;
- During the battle, the most prevalent German tank was the Panzer V (Panther);
- The Panther's gas tank has an off-road range of 75 miles.

You can only conclude from this that logistics had as much to do with the
outcome at Kursk as firepower or numbers.


-Mark Stone

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 6:19 pm    Post subject: Re: logistics


Greetings

Logistics is an important component of warfare. However its
complexity, as opposed to its importance, is less in the periods we
are talking about.

Comparing Kursk to a pre-1500 battle is comparing apples and oranges
precisely because of the size of the area and forces involved.

As an aside the Kursk database gives 198 Panther (which were
deployed in one brigade at one point) compared to 509 Pz III, 364 Pz
IV and 89 Tigers.

Regards

Edward

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Mark Stone <mark@...> wrote:
>
[SNIP}
>
> 25 years ago, reading Van Creveld convinced me that if you're not
serious about
> understanding logistics, then you're not serious about
understanding military
> history. To site my favorite, albeit out of period, example:
>
> The Battle of Kursk during WWII is the largest tank battle
humankind has ever
> had. Add up the following facts, and draw your own conclusion:
> - During the battle, the front line of active fighting moved back
and forth 200
> miles over several days;
> - During the battle, the most prevalent German tank was the Panzer
V (Panther);
> - The Panther's gas tank has an off-road range of 75 miles.
>
> You can only conclude from this that logistics had as much to do
with the
> outcome at Kursk as firepower or numbers.
>
>
> -Mark Stone
>

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Chris Bump
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Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1625

PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 6:41 pm    Post subject: Re: logistics


Point well made Mark, and certainly poignant.
I would disagree with your data though. The PZKW V was no where near
the most prevelant German tank at Kursk or in any major battle for
that matter. Reports vary, but as I recall somewhere below 200 were
delivered to the front in preperation for the battle and the launch
of operation Citadel was delayed in anticipation of their
introduction and arrival. They were only delivered to the Gross
Deutchland Division and most broke down within the first week of the
operation.

There are reports that more than 200 Pz VI's were in the battle.
PZKW IV's were produced in far larger numbers and in July 43 the PZKW
III was as prevelant as the IV in the line armor divisions which
obviously greatly outnumbered the single GD division. I base my
contention on the math that 16 Panzer and PG divisions took part in
the battle and only one of those received something south of 200 V's.

Roughly 2700 German tanks took part in the operation, although this
number includes sp guns and likely apc's.

I think that the description of the battle moving back and forth over
200 miles is confusing too. Certainly the frontage of the operation
covered several hundred miles, but the armor formations were all
concentrated at the shoulders of the salient. Their attacks to the
SW and NE never even achieved operational maneuver space and the
deepest penetration into the Russian defenses was something like 60km.

I don't believe that this was a swirling battle but rather a
bludgeoning that took place at narrow points along a long line-I
don't think that the tanks were moving great distances during the
battle as I took your description to suggest.

Not to diminish your point about the importance of logistics- I agree
with you completely, just don't agree with the data you used to
support it.
Chris

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Mark Stone <mark@...> wrote:
>
> --- On Arpil 2 Scott said: ---
>
> > You talk logistics to most people and their eyes roll back into
their
> > heads or to quote General Colt from Kelly's Heroes "We got
logistics
> > coming out our ears!"
> >
> > But, the above book is one of the easiest reads and one of the
best
> > primers in logistics you'll ever find. And it's about Alexander!
> > This book should be in everybody's library.
>
> 25 years ago, reading Van Creveld convinced me that if you're not
serious about
> understanding logistics, then you're not serious about
understanding military
> history. To site my favorite, albeit out of period, example:
>
> The Battle of Kursk during WWII is the largest tank battle
humankind has ever
> had. Add up the following facts, and draw your own conclusion:
> - During the battle, the front line of active fighting moved back
and forth 200
> miles over several days;
> - During the battle, the most prevalent German tank was the Panzer
V (Panther);
> - The Panther's gas tank has an off-road range of 75 miles.
>
> You can only conclude from this that logistics had as much to do
with the
> outcome at Kursk as firepower or numbers.
>
>
> -Mark Stone
>

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joncleaves
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Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 16447

PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 6:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Re: logistics


Ok, lads.... back to Ancient and Medieval Warfare. Thanks!

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: cncbump <cncbump@...>
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 15:41:46 -0000
Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: logistics


Point well made Mark, and certainly poignant.
I would disagree with your data though. The PZKW V was no where near
the most prevelant German tank at Kursk or in any major battle for
that matter. Reports vary, but as I recall somewhere below 200 were
delivered to the front in preperation for the battle and the launch
of operation Citadel was delayed in anticipation of their
introduction and arrival. They were only delivered to the Gross
Deutchland Division and most broke down within the first week of the
operation.

There are reports that more than 200 Pz VI's were in the battle.
PZKW IV's were produced in far larger numbers and in July 43 the PZKW
III was as prevelant as the IV in the line armor divisions which
obviously greatly outnumbered the single GD division. I base my
contention on the math that 16 Panzer and PG divisions took part in
the battle and only one of those received something south of 200 V's.

Roughly 2700 German tanks took part in the operation, although this
number includes sp guns and likely apc's.

I think that the description of the battle moving back and forth over
200 miles is confusing too. Certainly the frontage of the operation
covered several hundred miles, but the armor formations were all
concentrated at the shoulders of the salient. Their attacks to the
SW and NE never even achieved operational maneuver space and the
deepest penetration into the Russian defenses was something like 60km.

I don't believe that this was a swirling battle but rather a
bludgeoning that took place at narrow points along a long line-I
don't think that the tanks were moving great distances during the
battle as I took your description to suggest.

Not to diminish your point about the importance of logistics- I agree
with you completely, just don't agree with the data you used to
support it.
Chris

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Mark Stone <mark@...> wrote:
>
> --- On Arpil 2 Scott said: ---
>
> > You talk logistics to most people and their eyes roll back into
their
> > heads or to quote General Colt from Kelly's Heroes "We got
logistics
> > coming out our ears!"
> >
> > But, the above book is one of the easiest reads and one of the
best
> > primers in logistics you'll ever find. And it's about Alexander!
> > This book should be in everybody's library.
>
> 25 years ago, reading Van Creveld convinced me that if you're not
serious about
> understanding logistics, then you're not serious about
understanding military
> history. To site my favorite, albeit out of period, example:
>
> The Battle of Kursk during WWII is the largest tank battle
humankind has ever
> had. Add up the following facts, and draw your own conclusion:
> - During the battle, the front line of active fighting moved back
and forth 200
> miles over several days;
> - During the battle, the most prevalent German tank was the Panzer
V (Panther);
> - The Panther's gas tank has an off-road range of 75 miles.
>
> You can only conclude from this that logistics had as much to do
with the
> outcome at Kursk as firepower or numbers.
>
>
> -Mark Stone
>







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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:30 pm    Post subject: Re: logistics


Many times the timing of military campaigns, the routes followed by military
campaigns, and the success of military campaigns were determined by
logistics. I would recommend Donald W. Engels' book: Alexander the Great
and the Logistics of the Macedonian Army.



> I think logisitics are just as valuable in understanding ancient warfare
> as modern. Just for example, we all take for granted that the Persian
> Army at Thermopolye vastly outnumbered the Greeks. Herodotus says so,
> right?
>
> However, logistical studies since 1923 have all suggested that the
> Persian invasion probably couldn't have had ANYTHING like the numbers
> suggested. Furthermore, an appreciation of ancient logistics, coupled
> with an appreciation of the effort required to move large numbers of men
> anywhere, on any terrain (even roads) and provide them with water and
> food, suggests that the perception of hordes of Persians (ill-armed and
> ill-trained but numerous) is very much at odds with the historical
> logstical problem. Why take hordes? You can't feed or maintain them!
>
> T. Cuyler Young suggested in the Cambridge Ancient History article on
> the subject that the Persians may have had as few as 12,000 men at
> Thermopolye, up to a possible maximum of 20,000. His reasons are all
> logistical. He may have been wrong--but any campaign appreciation of
> the ancient world should start with the numbers on logistics.How were
> they fed and watered? How did they move? Where could they camp? How
> long did it take the army to get from a to b?
>
> All very modern, really.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:47 pm    Post subject: logistics


I think logisitics are just as valuable in understanding ancient warfare
as modern. Just for example, we all take for granted that the Persian
Army at Thermopolye vastly outnumbered the Greeks. Herodotus says so,
right?

However, logistical studies since 1923 have all suggested that the
Persian invasion probably couldn't have had ANYTHING like the numbers
suggested. Furthermore, an appreciation of ancient logistics, coupled
with an appreciation of the effort required to move large numbers of men
anywhere, on any terrain (even roads) and provide them with water and
food, suggests that the perception of hordes of Persians (ill-armed and
ill-trained but numerous) is very much at odds with the historical
logstical problem. Why take hordes? You can't feed or maintain them!

T. Cuyler Young suggested in the Cambridge Ancient History article on
the subject that the Persians may have had as few as 12,000 men at
Thermopolye, up to a possible maximum of 20,000. His reasons are all
logistical. He may have been wrong--but any campaign appreciation of
the ancient world should start with the numbers on logistics.How were
they fed and watered? How did they move? Where could they camp? How
long did it take the army to get from a to b?

All very modern, really.

>
>

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John Murphy
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Posts: 1625

PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:48 am    Post subject: Re: logistics


Y'all definately would enjoy the "Alex Logistics" book.

If I recall correctly - when they sit down to crunch the numbers
what they actually find is that the size of the army matters
realatively little in the pre-industrial era, especially in
circumstances where water transport (the ancient equivalent to
railroads) is unavailable or impractical amd/or where fresh water
and/or fodder is not available locally. Practically speaking
regardless of any reasonable number of men in the army, the supply
train itself simply eats up all the goods it is carrying in a matter
of days.

The answer, of course, at least as presented in the book, lies in
thinking outside the box instead of presuming an army is marching
along with its supplies in tow. Or, if Muhammad can't tow his
mountain along...

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Christian and Sarah
<cgc.sjw@...> wrote:
>
> I think logisitics are just as valuable in understanding ancient
warfare
> as modern. Just for example, we all take for granted that the
Persian
> Army at Thermopolye vastly outnumbered the Greeks. Herodotus says
so,
> right?
>
> However, logistical studies since 1923 have all suggested that the
> Persian invasion probably couldn't have had ANYTHING like the
numbers
> suggested. Furthermore, an appreciation of ancient logistics,
coupled
> with an appreciation of the effort required to move large numbers
of men
> anywhere, on any terrain (even roads) and provide them with water
and
> food, suggests that the perception of hordes of Persians (ill-
armed and
> ill-trained but numerous) is very much at odds with the historical
> logstical problem. Why take hordes? You can't feed or maintain
them!
>
> T. Cuyler Young suggested in the Cambridge Ancient History article
on
> the subject that the Persians may have had as few as 12,000 men at
> Thermopolye, up to a possible maximum of 20,000. His reasons are
all
> logistical. He may have been wrong--but any campaign appreciation
of
> the ancient world should start with the numbers on logistics.How
were
> they fed and watered? How did they move? Where could they camp?
How
> long did it take the army to get from a to b?
>
> All very modern, really.
>
> >
> >
>

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Legionary
Legionary


Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 307

PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 5:50 am    Post subject: Re: logistics


The Han found that a larger army is easier to feed, because it can
intimidate cities into forking over supplies rather than carying them. They
seem to have commonly gone on campaign with 40000 men or more. I think they
counted on loosing most of them any way (tee hee) and thereby reducing the
need for suppplies at some point. You only need supplies to get there,
coming back they can fend for themselves. OK I'm joking, a little. But they
did treat horses as a consumable supply, and if they starved to death, oh
well. Cavalry units would start out with 3 or 4 horses for each man, and
virtually all of them would die before the end. That's what I get from
english sources anyway.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Christian and Sarah" <cgc.sjw@...>
To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 4:47 PM
Subject: [WarriorRules] logistics


>I think logisitics are just as valuable in understanding ancient warfare
> as modern. Just for example, we all take for granted that the Persian
> Army at Thermopolye vastly outnumbered the Greeks. Herodotus says so,
> right?
>
> However, logistical studies since 1923 have all suggested that the
> Persian invasion probably couldn't have had ANYTHING like the numbers
> suggested. Furthermore, an appreciation of ancient logistics, coupled
> with an appreciation of the effort required to move large numbers of men
> anywhere, on any terrain (even roads) and provide them with water and
> food, suggests that the perception of hordes of Persians (ill-armed and
> ill-trained but numerous) is very much at odds with the historical
> logstical problem. Why take hordes? You can't feed or maintain them!
>
> T. Cuyler Young suggested in the Cambridge Ancient History article on
> the subject that the Persians may have had as few as 12,000 men at
> Thermopolye, up to a possible maximum of 20,000. His reasons are all
> logistical. He may have been wrong--but any campaign appreciation of
> the ancient world should start with the numbers on logistics.How were
> they fed and watered? How did they move? Where could they camp? How
> long did it take the army to get from a to b?
>
> All very modern, really.
>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:08 pm    Post subject: Re: logistics


It's interesting that this thread started now.

Last month I put together an operational level Warrior game based on
Crevald's and Engels's books.

The rules themselves are short, only about 5 pages. I and the guys I
play with in Beijing have just started trying them out but if anybody
is interested I can post them.

Jonathan


--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "John S. Jones" <jsjones4@...>
wrote:
>
> Many times the timing of military campaigns, the routes followed by
military
> campaigns, and the success of military campaigns were determined by
> logistics. I would recommend Donald W. Engels' book: Alexander
the Great
> and the Logistics of the Macedonian Army.
>
>
>
> > I think logisitics are just as valuable in understanding ancient
warfare
> > as modern. Just for example, we all take for granted that the
Persian
> > Army at Thermopolye vastly outnumbered the Greeks. Herodotus
says so,
> > right?
> >
> > However, logistical studies since 1923 have all suggested that the
> > Persian invasion probably couldn't have had ANYTHING like the
numbers
> > suggested. Furthermore, an appreciation of ancient logistics,
coupled
> > with an appreciation of the effort required to move large numbers
of men
> > anywhere, on any terrain (even roads) and provide them with water
and
> > food, suggests that the perception of hordes of Persians (ill-
armed and
> > ill-trained but numerous) is very much at odds with the historical
> > logstical problem. Why take hordes? You can't feed or maintain
them!
> >
> > T. Cuyler Young suggested in the Cambridge Ancient History
article on
> > the subject that the Persians may have had as few as 12,000 men at
> > Thermopolye, up to a possible maximum of 20,000. His reasons are
all
> > logistical. He may have been wrong--but any campaign
appreciation of
> > the ancient world should start with the numbers on logistics.How
were
> > they fed and watered? How did they move? Where could they
camp? How
> > long did it take the army to get from a to b?
> >
> > All very modern, really.
>

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 5:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Re: logistics


Well, I am interested.

--
Christopher Damour <cdamour@...>

----- Original Message -----
From: Jonathan <ccoutoftown@...>
Date: Tuesday, April 4, 2006 6:09 am
Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: logistics
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com

> It's interesting that this thread started now.
>
> Last month I put together an operational level Warrior game based
> on
> Crevald's and Engels's books.
>
> The rules themselves are short, only about 5 pages. I and the guys
> I
> play with in Beijing have just started trying them out but if
> anybody
> is interested I can post them.
>
> Jonathan

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 3:59 am    Post subject: Re: logistics


I have to admit I don't actually know how to post a word document on
this list.

J

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, cdamour@... wrote:
>
> Well, I am interested.
>
> --
> Christopher Damour <cdamour@...>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jonathan <ccoutoftown@...>
> Date: Tuesday, April 4, 2006 6:09 am
> Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: logistics
> To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
>
> > It's interesting that this thread started now.
> >
> > Last month I put together an operational level Warrior game based
> > on
> > Crevald's and Engels's books.
> >
> > The rules themselves are short, only about 5 pages. I and the
guys
> > I
> > play with in Beijing have just started trying them out but if
> > anybody
> > is interested I can post them.
> >
> > Jonathan
>

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Chris Bump
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Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1625

PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:47 am    Post subject: Re: logistics


I would like to see you post them or if not then a copy too.
Chris

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, cdamour@... wrote:
>
> Well, I am interested.
>
> --
> Christopher Damour <cdamour@...>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jonathan <ccoutoftown@...>
> Date: Tuesday, April 4, 2006 6:09 am
> Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: logistics
> To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
>
> > It's interesting that this thread started now.
> >
> > Last month I put together an operational level Warrior game based
> > on
> > Crevald's and Engels's books.
> >
> > The rules themselves are short, only about 5 pages. I and the
guys
> > I
> > play with in Beijing have just started trying them out but if
> > anybody
> > is interested I can post them.
> >
> > Jonathan
>

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John Murphy
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Posts: 1625

PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 3:03 pm    Post subject: Re: logistics


point your browser to...
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/WarriorRules/files/
then navigate to the appropriate folder and click "add file" at the
top-right of the screen.

you do have to use a web browser, I do not think the Yahoo mail
server permits attachments to mailing-list messages (and thank
goodness I might add).

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan" <ccoutoftown@...>
wrote:
>
> I have to admit I don't actually know how to post a word document
on
> this list.
>
> J
>
> --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, cdamour@ wrote:
> >
> > Well, I am interested.
> >
> > --
> > Christopher Damour <cdamour@>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Jonathan <ccoutoftown@>
> > Date: Tuesday, April 4, 2006 6:09 am
> > Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: logistics
> > To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > > It's interesting that this thread started now.
> > >
> > > Last month I put together an operational level Warrior game
based
> > > on
> > > Crevald's and Engels's books.
> > >
> > > The rules themselves are short, only about 5 pages. I and the
> guys
> > > I
> > > play with in Beijing have just started trying them out but if
> > > anybody
> > > is interested I can post them.
> > >
> > > Jonathan
> >
>

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:00 am    Post subject: Re: logistics


Got it. thanks. I'll post them in the next couple of days. (Want to clean up
the typos and
stuff)

Jonathan

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "John" <jjmurphy@...> wrote:
>
> point your browser to...
> http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/WarriorRules/files/
> then navigate to the appropriate folder and click "add file" at the
> top-right of the screen.
>
> you do have to use a web browser, I do not think the Yahoo mail
> server permits attachments to mailing-list messages (and thank
> goodness I might add).
>
> --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan" <ccoutoftown@>
> wrote:
> >
> > I have to admit I don't actually know how to post a word document
> on
> > this list.
> >
> > J
> >
> > --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, cdamour@ wrote:
> > >
> > > Well, I am interested.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Christopher Damour <cdamour@>
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Jonathan <ccoutoftown@>
> > > Date: Tuesday, April 4, 2006 6:09 am
> > > Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: logistics
> > > To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > > > It's interesting that this thread started now.
> > > >
> > > > Last month I put together an operational level Warrior game
> based
> > > > on
> > > > Crevald's and Engels's books.
> > > >
> > > > The rules themselves are short, only about 5 pages. I and the
> > guys
> > > > I
> > > > play with in Beijing have just started trying them out but if
> > > > anybody
> > > > is interested I can post them.
> > > >
> > > > Jonathan
> > >
> >
>

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