Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

I've been lurking around on miniatures sites for a few days looking
for good 15mm and 6mm Chinese armies and have been dissapointed.

6mm
don't seem to be any chinese armies at all in 6mm except for the
mongols (who weren't actually chinese but are good as opponents)

15mm
NONE of the 15mm figure faces actually look chinese. Their arms and
uniforms are mostly correct but all have big noses and big
beards ????? They look more like Visigoths. I am confused by this
problem. To pick two examples: 15mm models from Essex and Irregular
Miniatures look like German Barbarians in Chinese clothes

Are there any manufacturers who specialize in Asian armies

Jonathan

[John Murphy]

It is my belief that the Outpost Wargame Services line from Scotland
is well-scuplted with better proportions than a lot of 15mm.
Unfortunately, this makes them prone to breakage which is why you
see most 15s done the way they are. Beards though, that is weird.

But check them out - they do the Sui and Early Tang (or whatever the
new transliteration is for them) and maybe some others too.

I have some Essex 15mm Han armored swordsmen under a magnifying
glass as I write this - you are right the faces look a bit brutish.
But I think that is something a function of the scale.

For what it is worth in 6mm this is sure to be worse.

But in either case the paint job probably will make the difference
anyhow.

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "ccoutoftown"
<ccoutoftown@y...> wrote:
> I've been lurking around on miniatures sites for a few days
looking
> for good 15mm and 6mm Chinese armies and have been dissapointed.
>
> 6mm
> don't seem to be any chinese armies at all in 6mm except for the
> mongols (who weren't actually chinese but are good as opponents)
>
> 15mm
> NONE of the 15mm figure faces actually look chinese. Their arms
and
> uniforms are mostly correct but all have big noses and big
> beards ????? They look more like Visigoths. I am confused by this
> problem. To pick two examples: 15mm models from Essex and
Irregular
> Miniatures look like German Barbarians in Chinese clothes
>
> Are there any manufacturers who specialize in Asian armies
>
> Jonathan

Do your Han figures have beards? All the Chinese miniatures I have
seen have big thick ones. The manufacturers would be much better off
reducing detail on the faces - making them flatter. That, and no
facial hair are two of the defining charactersistics of asian faces.


--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "John" <jjmurphy@s...> wrote:
> It is my belief that the Outpost Wargame Services line from
Scotland
> is well-scuplted with better proportions than a lot of 15mm.
> Unfortunately, this makes them prone to breakage which is why you
> see most 15s done the way they are. Beards though, that is weird.
>
> But check them out - they do the Sui and Early Tang (or whatever
the
> new transliteration is for them) and maybe some others too.
>
> I have some Essex 15mm Han armored swordsmen under a magnifying
> glass as I write this - you are right the faces look a bit brutish.
> But I think that is something a function of the scale.
>
> For what it is worth in 6mm this is sure to be worse.
>
> But in either case the paint job probably will make the difference
> anyhow.
>
> --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "ccoutoftown"
> <ccoutoftown@y...> wrote:
> > I've been lurking around on miniatures sites for a few days
> looking
> > for good 15mm and 6mm Chinese armies and have been dissapointed.
> >
> > 6mm
> > don't seem to be any chinese armies at all in 6mm except for the
> > mongols (who weren't actually chinese but are good as opponents)
> >
> > 15mm
> > NONE of the 15mm figure faces actually look chinese. Their arms
> and
> > uniforms are mostly correct but all have big noses and big
> > beards ????? They look more like Visigoths. I am confused by
this
> > problem. To pick two examples: 15mm models from Essex and
> Irregular
> > Miniatures look like German Barbarians in Chinese clothes
> >
> > Are there any manufacturers who specialize in Asian armies
> >
> > Jonathan

Yes it's hard to find Asian figs that aren't caricatures in some way. I
don't know much about 15mm, but in 25mm there are a couple of recent lines
that have done much better.

Check out Molniya

http://members.aol.com/molniyafigs/

There is some facial hair, but to their credit, they have faithfully worked
from the Terracotta warriors so they have used it appropriately.

Their Horses are fantastic! Most fig lines throw in a generic horse and say
that'll do....
These are the only guys I have ever seen who pay any attention to the way
the Ancient Chinese horses were groomed. Take a close look at the braided
tail hair and the cropped manes. The only thing they missed is the single
length of braided mane left midway down the horse's neck, but you can add
that with a little epoxy putty. The Horse's physique is accurate as well. If
I hadn't invested so much time and money in the Old Glory Cavalry figs I
would have replaced my horses already, at some point next year I will...

So the down side is that these are Qin Dynasty Figs, I don't have any solid
research on how the Han differed but they must have been close, it was the
same culture.

Did you say you are in China? One thing I am always searching for is some
good research on the Han horse breeding. My understanding is that the Han
horses are a kind of Pony or domensticatable cousin of the Prezwalski. I
think they were a fairly uniform colour, with a reddish brown body and dark
extremities. The breed does seem to have a modern descendant but there has
been some cross-breeding. Is that your understanding as well?

I'm not saying they were actually prezwalskis mind you, just on a close
evolutionary branch. Prezwalskis were only hunted for food as far as I know.

Unfortunately I only speak English and good English scholarship is hard to
come by over here.

Allan

----- Original Message -----
From: "ccoutoftown" <ccoutoftown@...>
To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 3:41 AM
Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: looking for good 6mm and 15 mm chinese armies


> Do your Han figures have beards? All the Chinese miniatures I have
> seen have big thick ones. The manufacturers would be much better off
> reducing detail on the faces - making them flatter. That, and no
> facial hair are two of the defining charactersistics of asian faces.
>
>
> --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "John" <jjmurphy@s...> wrote:
> > It is my belief that the Outpost Wargame Services line from
> Scotland
> > is well-scuplted with better proportions than a lot of 15mm.
> > Unfortunately, this makes them prone to breakage which is why you
> > see most 15s done the way they are. Beards though, that is weird.
> >
> > But check them out - they do the Sui and Early Tang (or whatever
> the
> > new transliteration is for them) and maybe some others too.
> >
> > I have some Essex 15mm Han armored swordsmen under a magnifying
> > glass as I write this - you are right the faces look a bit brutish.
> > But I think that is something a function of the scale.
> >
> > For what it is worth in 6mm this is sure to be worse.
> >
> > But in either case the paint job probably will make the difference
> > anyhow.
> >
> > --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "ccoutoftown"
> > <ccoutoftown@y...> wrote:
> > > I've been lurking around on miniatures sites for a few days
> > looking
> > > for good 15mm and 6mm Chinese armies and have been dissapointed.
> > >
> > > 6mm
> > > don't seem to be any chinese armies at all in 6mm except for the
> > > mongols (who weren't actually chinese but are good as opponents)
> > >
> > > 15mm
> > > NONE of the 15mm figure faces actually look chinese. Their arms
> > and
> > > uniforms are mostly correct but all have big noses and big
> > > beards ????? They look more like Visigoths. I am confused by
> this
> > > problem. To pick two examples: 15mm models from Essex and
> > Irregular
> > > Miniatures look like German Barbarians in Chinese clothes
> > >
> > > Are there any manufacturers who specialize in Asian armies
> > >
> > > Jonathan
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

The problems with modeling from terracotta wariors are:
1) they were ideals(they may have been sculptured from real models
but, well, they were MODELS with all that that implies). A full
flowing mustache was considered the epitome of manliness for a
warrior. You can see this in all historical statues of warriors like
Zhang Fei, Guan Yu and Yue Fei(famous fighters from three kingdoms
period and Southern Song) It doesn't mean that is what people
actually looked like. (In part, this ideal comes PRECISELY from the
fact that it is so hard for chinese to grow beards - if one can, that
in itself is proof of excessive manliness)
2) While only a few of the terracotta warriors are depicted with
mustaches, virtually every one of essex's tang dynasty 15mm figures
has a beard or a mustache.
3) Why model from old statues when you have the real thing. Chinese
people don't have thick facial hair. A modeller should be able to
discover that just going to Chinatown. Chinese people haven't
changed genetically in the 2000 years since then.



Thanks for the tip on the horses. Re: Han horses, i don't know. As
I am sure you are aware most chinese war horses in all dynasties were
traded from barbarian steppe nomads and so were related to the short
tough horses the mongols rode. Possibly that is no help.


--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "Allan Lougheed"
<redcoat24@c...> wrote:
> Yes it's hard to find Asian figs that aren't caricatures in some
way. I
> don't know much about 15mm, but in 25mm there are a couple of
recent lines
> that have done much better.
>
> Check out Molniya
>
> http://members.aol.com/molniyafigs/
>
> There is some facial hair, but to their credit, they have
faithfully worked
> from the Terracotta warriors so they have used it appropriately.
>
> Their Horses are fantastic! Most fig lines throw in a generic horse
and say
> that'll do....
> These are the only guys I have ever seen who pay any attention to
the way
> the Ancient Chinese horses were groomed. Take a close look at the
braided
> tail hair and the cropped manes. The only thing they missed is the
single
> length of braided mane left midway down the horse's neck, but you
can add
> that with a little epoxy putty. The Horse's physique is accurate as
well. If
> I hadn't invested so much time and money in the Old Glory Cavalry
figs I
> would have replaced my horses already, at some point next year I
will...
>
> So the down side is that these are Qin Dynasty Figs, I don't have
any solid
> research on how the Han differed but they must have been close, it
was the
> same culture.
>
> Did you say you are in China? One thing I am always searching for
is some
> good research on the Han horse breeding. My understanding is that
the Han
> horses are a kind of Pony or domensticatable cousin of the
Prezwalski. I
> think they were a fairly uniform colour, with a reddish brown body
and dark
> extremities. The breed does seem to have a modern descendant but
there has
> been some cross-breeding. Is that your understanding as well?
>
> I'm not saying they were actually prezwalskis mind you, just on a
close
> evolutionary branch. Prezwalskis were only hunted for food as far
as I know.
>
> Unfortunately I only speak English and good English scholarship is
hard to
> come by over here.
>
> Allan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "ccoutoftown" <ccoutoftown@y...>
> To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 3:41 AM
> Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: looking for good 6mm and 15 mm chinese
armies
>
>
> > Do your Han figures have beards? All the Chinese miniatures I
have
> > seen have big thick ones. The manufacturers would be much better
off
> > reducing detail on the faces - making them flatter. That, and no
> > facial hair are two of the defining charactersistics of asian
faces.
> >
> >
> > --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "John" <jjmurphy@s...> wrote:
> > > It is my belief that the Outpost Wargame Services line from
> > Scotland
> > > is well-scuplted with better proportions than a lot of 15mm.
> > > Unfortunately, this makes them prone to breakage which is why
you
> > > see most 15s done the way they are. Beards though, that is
weird.
> > >
> > > But check them out - they do the Sui and Early Tang (or whatever
> > the
> > > new transliteration is for them) and maybe some others too.
> > >
> > > I have some Essex 15mm Han armored swordsmen under a magnifying
> > > glass as I write this - you are right the faces look a bit
brutish.
> > > But I think that is something a function of the scale.
> > >
> > > For what it is worth in 6mm this is sure to be worse.
> > >
> > > But in either case the paint job probably will make the
difference
> > > anyhow.
> > >
> > > --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "ccoutoftown"
> > > <ccoutoftown@y...> wrote:
> > > > I've been lurking around on miniatures sites for a few days
> > > looking
> > > > for good 15mm and 6mm Chinese armies and have been
dissapointed.
> > > >
> > > > 6mm
> > > > don't seem to be any chinese armies at all in 6mm except for
the
> > > > mongols (who weren't actually chinese but are good as
opponents)
> > > >
> > > > 15mm
> > > > NONE of the 15mm figure faces actually look chinese. Their
arms
> > > and
> > > > uniforms are mostly correct but all have big noses and big
> > > > beards ????? They look more like Visigoths. I am confused by
> > this
> > > > problem. To pick two examples: 15mm models from Essex and
> > > Irregular
> > > > Miniatures look like German Barbarians in Chinese clothes
> > > >
> > > > Are there any manufacturers who specialize in Asian armies
> > > >
> > > > Jonathan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >