Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 6/7/2004 16:18:20 Central Daylight Time,
eforbes100@... writes:

The simplest example would be of two lines, one behind the other, LI in
front and LMI behind in the open, charged by HC. The LI in the open is charged
by Cav, who test, and then evade back through the LMI. The LMI could then be
hit with a converted charge by the HC, but the LMI would not test.>>
[
[
Not true. Converted charges only happen in pursuit, never in the charge
phase. The LMI would test in the case above.



This last convention weekend it was argued that anything in the charge path
tested as the path opened up, not just at the time of charge declarations. >>
[
[
That is a somewhat misleading way to say it, but essentially true.


Jon



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Ed Forbes]

Jon,

A Question on when loose / open order test in the open for a charge by cav.

I have always played that if the loose / open unit could not have a charge
declared on it and be contacted without the situation on the table changing,
then there was no morale check.

The simplest example would be of two lines, one behind the other, LI in front
and LMI behind in the open, charged by HC. The LI in the open is charged by
Cav, who test, and then evade back through the LMI. The LMI could then be hit
with a converted charge by the HC, but the LMI would not test.

This last convention weekend it was argued that anything in the charge path
tested as the path opened up, not just at the time of charge declarations. A
sort of "rolling charge test". Is this the case?

Ed


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[Chris Bump]

Not true. Converted charges only happen in pursuit, never in the charge
phase. The LMI would test in the case above.


That's not entirely true is it? To use the example originally given, if the
line of LI had stood to receive the charge (shaken or not) and the mounted
chargers had burst through and contacted the LMI, that would be a converted
charge wouldn't it? And if so would obviously eliminate the requirement that
the LMI test waiver. No? My only point being that converted charges are not
limited to pursuers. Right?
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: JonCleaves@...
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 5:35 PM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] loose / open order test in the open ?


In a message dated 6/7/2004 16:18:20 Central Daylight Time,
eforbes100@... writes:

The simplest example would be of two lines, one behind the other, LI in
front and LMI behind in the open, charged by HC. The LI in the open is
charged
by Cav, who test, and then evade back through the LMI. The LMI could then
be
hit with a converted charge by the HC, but the LMI would not test.>>
[
[
Not true. Converted charges only happen in pursuit, never in the charge
phase. The LMI would test in the case above.



This last convention weekend it was argued that anything in the charge path
tested as the path opened up, not just at the time of charge declarations. >>
[
[
That is a somewhat misleading way to say it, but essentially true.


Jon



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Ed Forbes]

Jon,

Are the HC in this example not in pursuit of the LI?

Both the LI and the HC roll for distance at the time an evade is declared. If
they are in variable moves, how can they not be counted as in pursuit?

Ed




>The simplest example would be of two lines, one behind the other, LI in
front and LMI behind in the open, charged by HC. The LI in the open is charged
by Cav, who test, and then evade back through the LMI. The LMI could then be
hit with a converted charge by the HC, but the LMI would not test.>>
[
[
Not true. Converted charges only happen in pursuit, never in the charge
phase. The LMI would test in the case above.



This last convention weekend it was argued that anything in the charge path
tested as the path opened up, not just at the time of charge declarations. >>
[
[
That is a somewhat misleading way to say it, but essentially true.


Jon



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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[joncleaves]

In a message dated 6/7/2004 17:57:47 Central Daylight Time,
cncbump@... writes:

My only point being that converted charges are not limited to pursuers.
Right?>>
A converted charge cannot happen in the charge phase. Only as a result of
combat.
All charges in the charge phase are original charges, not converted ones.
Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 6/7/2004 18:42:54 Central Daylight Time,
eforbes100@... writes:

Jon,

Are the HC in this example not in pursuit of the LI? >>

No, they are charging the LI.



Both the LI and the HC roll for distance at the time an evade is declared.
If they are in variable moves, how can they not be counted as in pursuit?>>

Because a charge, even one at evaders that gains a variable component, is a
charge. Pursuit is a combat results move. They do not happen in the same
phase of the game.

Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 6/7/2004 23:20:04 Central Daylight Time,
hrisikos@... writes:

Are you saying that whether the LMI test depends on whether the LI evades?>>

Yes.

Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Bill Chriss]

>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 6/7/2004 16:18:20 Central Daylight Time,
> eforbes100@... writes:
>
> The simplest example would be of two lines, one behind the other, LI in
> front and LMI behind in the open, charged by HC. The LI in the open is
> charged
> by Cav, who test, and then evade back through the LMI. The LMI could
> then be
> hit with a converted charge by the HC, but the LMI would not test.
> [
> [
> Not true. Converted charges only happen in pursuit, never in the charge
> phase. The LMI would test in the case above.
>
>

Wait a minute, Jon. I distinctly recall your saying the exact opposite
when i asked you the same question some time ago. I will search the
e-mails and find it. You said before that the LMI need not assume that
anyone in front of them would evade away. I will find the post and quote
it back to you, as this makes a huge difference in the way I play
peltasts.


Greek

[Bill Chriss]

Jon,

Here is your statement today.



> In a message dated 6/7/2004 16:18:20 Central Daylight Time,
> eforbes100@... writes:
>
> The simplest example would be of two lines, one behind the other, LI in
> front and LMI behind in the open, charged by HC. The LI in the open is
> charged
> by Cav, who test, and then evade back through the LMI. The LMI could
> then be
> hit with a converted charge by the HC, but the LMI would not test.
> [
> [
> Not true. Converted charges only happen in pursuit, never in the charge
> phase. The LMI would test in the case above.
>
>
>
> This last convention weekend it was argued that anything in the charge
> path
> tested as the path opened up, not just at the time of charge
> declarations.
> [
> [
> That is a somewhat misleading way to say it, but essentially true.
>
>
> Jon
>

Here is the exchange you and I had on December 10, 2003 (your reply was at
10:24 a.m.:

In a message dated 12/9/2003 11:10:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,
hrisikos@...
writes:



> Looking at 6.162 and 6.163. Gharges "count as declared on all legal

> targets in or moving ointo the charge path." Charge path is defined

> as a zone "as wide as the body and extending out its tactical
move."

> However, charge reach is only "measured to the point of contact with

> the firsat target body," and if a body cannot legally declare a

> charge against a target or is prevented from doingf so by some

> obstacle such as...an intervening body the taget is not in the body's

> charge reach." This implies that charge reach does not extend beyong

> the first enemy body met. Also, it appears that charges may only be

> declared against visible enemy, but do they "count" as declared

> against enemy behind the first enemy body met? Even if the rearmost

> body cannot be seen through the "covering body?" >>



You have it all right, but you need to read the charge at evaders portion
of 6.166.
This covers what happens AFTER a target evades. Until a target actually
evades,
charge reach does not 'go past' the target. Once everything is figured
out and the
charge is under way and the target then chooses to evade, the charge can make
contact with a legal target in the path.



> Let me give an example: A unit of two rank deep LI javelin men is

> covering a unit of peltasts directly behind it. The LI is not in

> skirmish. An enemy cav unit is 1" in front of and facing the LI. It

> declares a charge "straight ahead." Presumably, it cannot see
through

> the LI to the LMI, right? Does the charge count as declared against

> the LMI peltasts, even though the LI have no intention of evading?>>



Not until they actually evade, no. But once they do, if the LMI are in
the charge
path of the cav, then yes.



unit, even though, with the LI standing to receive, there

> is no chance they'll be contacted by the Cav?>>



No. The peltasts would not be prevented from charging another unit if the
LI stand.
Hence the words about charge path not extending past the first body met.



Jon


Could you please explain/ harmonize these rulings/interpretations for me.
Are you saying that whether the LMI test depends on whether the LI evades?
If so, then the test happens only after the movement of charge responses?



Greek

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 6/8/2004 06:59:34 Central Daylight Time,
cncbump@... writes:

There is no requirement for the existance of pursuers and thus broken
unit(s) in order for a converted charge to occurr. You had initially written
that
only pursuers could convert into a converted charge.>>

Well, it doesn't have to be pursuers - it can be done on a follow up or
break through too. But a charger can't cause a converted charge in the charge
phase. Ever.

I am surprised, i must say, that the first sentence of 6.167 could be
written any other way:

"6.167 Converted Charge. A follow-up (6.31), break-through (6.35) or
pursuit move (6.33) that reaches a different (new) enemy body's position is a
converted charge."

There are no, I say again - NO, converted charges occuring in the charge
phase by chargers. Ever...lol And before Todd says it - 7th is this way,
too...lol

Jon







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Chris Bump]

Then we are in agreement. There is no requirement for the existance of
pursuers and thus broken unit(s) in order for a converted charge to occurr. You
had initially written that only pursuers could convert into a converted charge.
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: JonCleaves@...
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 12:45 AM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] loose / open order test in the open ?


In a message dated 6/7/2004 17:57:47 Central Daylight Time,
cncbump@... writes:

My only point being that converted charges are not limited to pursuers.
Right?>>
A converted charge cannot happen in the charge phase. Only as a result of
combat.
All charges in the charge phase are original charges, not converted ones.
Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Chris Bump]

I am surprised, i must say, that the first sentence of 6.167 could be
written any other way:

I agree with you. I understand the rule exactly as you wrote it. My message
was prompted when you wrote that only pursuers could execute a converted charge.
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: JonCleaves@...
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 8:38 AM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] loose / open order test in the open ?


In a message dated 6/8/2004 06:59:34 Central Daylight Time,
cncbump@... writes:

There is no requirement for the existance of pursuers and thus broken
unit(s) in order for a converted charge to occurr. You had initially written
that
only pursuers could convert into a converted charge.>>

Well, it doesn't have to be pursuers - it can be done on a follow up or
break through too. But a charger can't cause a converted charge in the
charge
phase. Ever.

I am surprised, i must say, that the first sentence of 6.167 could be
written any other way:

"6.167 Converted Charge. A follow-up (6.31), break-through (6.35) or
pursuit move (6.33) that reaches a different (new) enemy body's position is a
converted charge."

There are no, I say again - NO, converted charges occuring in the charge
phase by chargers. Ever...lol And before Todd says it - 7th is this way,
too...lol

Jon







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[joncleaves]

In a message dated 6/8/2004 11:24:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
cncbump@... writes:

> My message was prompted when you wrote that only pursuers
> could execute a converted charge.>>
[
[
Chris, if I said or implied only, I am sorry. What I was trying to do was show
that it was only the result of a combat results move and never a charge.

Jon