Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Kelly Wilkinson]

Hi everyone, I noticed that Greg was getting antsy because it is too
quiet in here so I thought I might see if we can get a good old
history of weaponry conversation going. Let me begin with a quote
from "Warfare in the Classical World" by John Warry. . .

"The pilum was now used by all legionaires, and Marius introduced a
change in it's manufacture. In place of one of the iron rivets which
had secured the head to the shaft, he had a wooden peg inserted.
When the javelin impaled an enemy shield, the peg broke on impact
and the shaft sagged and trailed on the ground, though still
attached to the head by the remaining iron rivet. Not only was the
javelin thus rendered unserviceable to enemy hands, but it
encumbered the warrior whose shield it had transfixed. According to
Plutarch, this novelty was introduced in preparation for the battle
with the Cimbri at the battle of Vercellae. At the later date, in
Julius Caeser's army, as a further refinement, the long shank of the
pilum was made of soft iron, so that it bent even while it
penitrated."

So my question is this, "Was it common practice for enemy soldiers
to throw back spears/pilum(pre-Marian?)/missiles? If not, why would
the Romans go to the trouble to engineer their pila so that it could
not be used against them in this manner?"

This is just for fun and hopefully it will spark an equally good
discussion.

kelly

[Greg Regets]

Is this like that story from the second world war, where one side
dropped 10,000 hand grenades on the enemy ... who promptly pulled out
the pins and send them back? ;-)



--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "jwilkinson62"
<jwilkinson62@y...> wrote:
>
> Hi everyone, I noticed that Greg was getting antsy because it is
too
> quiet in here so I thought I might see if we can get a good old
> history of weaponry conversation going. Let me begin with a quote
> from "Warfare in the Classical World" by John Warry. . .
>
> "The pilum was now used by all legionaires, and Marius introduced a
> change in it's manufacture. In place of one of the iron rivets
which
> had secured the head to the shaft, he had a wooden peg inserted.
> When the javelin impaled an enemy shield, the peg broke on impact
> and the shaft sagged and trailed on the ground, though still
> attached to the head by the remaining iron rivet. Not only was the
> javelin thus rendered unserviceable to enemy hands, but it
> encumbered the warrior whose shield it had transfixed. According to
> Plutarch, this novelty was introduced in preparation for the battle
> with the Cimbri at the battle of Vercellae. At the later date, in
> Julius Caeser's army, as a further refinement, the long shank of
the
> pilum was made of soft iron, so that it bent even while it
> penitrated."
>
> So my question is this, "Was it common practice for enemy soldiers
> to throw back spears/pilum(pre-Marian?)/missiles? If not, why would
> the Romans go to the trouble to engineer their pila so that it
could
> not be used against them in this manner?"
>
> This is just for fun and hopefully it will spark an equally good
> discussion.
>
> kelly
>

[Kelly Wilkinson]

Hey now! Be nice to the Polish army, their horse cavalry was some of the finest
of their time. But seriously, was this a problem? Evidently it was enough for
the Romans under Marius to institute this change. Does anyone here have any
thoughts on this?

k

Greg Regets <greg.regets@...> wrote:
Is this like that story from the second world war, where one side
dropped 10,000 hand grenades on the enemy ... who promptly pulled out
the pins and send them back? ;-)



--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "jwilkinson62"
<jwilkinson62@y...> wrote:
>
> Hi everyone, I noticed that Greg was getting antsy because it is
too
> quiet in here so I thought I might see if we can get a good old
> history of weaponry conversation going. Let me begin with a quote
> from "Warfare in the Classical World" by John Warry. . .
>
> "The pilum was now used by all legionaires, and Marius introduced a
> change in it's manufacture. In place of one of the iron rivets
which
> had secured the head to the shaft, he had a wooden peg inserted.
> When the javelin impaled an enemy shield, the peg broke on impact
> and the shaft sagged and trailed on the ground, though still
> attached to the head by the remaining iron rivet. Not only was the
> javelin thus rendered unserviceable to enemy hands, but it
> encumbered the warrior whose shield it had transfixed. According to
> Plutarch, this novelty was introduced in preparation for the battle
> with the Cimbri at the battle of Vercellae. At the later date, in
> Julius Caeser's army, as a further refinement, the long shank of
the
> pilum was made of soft iron, so that it bent even while it
> penitrated."
>
> So my question is this, "Was it common practice for enemy soldiers
> to throw back spears/pilum(pre-Marian?)/missiles? If not, why would
> the Romans go to the trouble to engineer their pila so that it
could
> not be used against them in this manner?"
>
> This is just for fun and hopefully it will spark an equally good
> discussion.
>
> kelly
>






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 11/30/2005 05:53:34 Central Standard Time,
pcelella@... writes:

So, in Warrior terms, wouldn't this mean that any opponent charged by
pilum-armed Romans should be rendered shieldless??? Hmmm...that might
make an interesting x-rule!>>



]
This effect is already accounted for in the factors for HTW and its effect
on P and LTS armed troops.

Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Now this stuff is largely correct but the soft iron shank or wooden
peg to break stuff wsa for a variety of reasons. Yes, some enemy did
pull out javelins or pick ip whatevr weapons at hand and throw them,
fight with them whatever.

Ancients who used shooting weapons ofetn did. In fact, in the
Persian army, their shields were created to specifically CATCH
arrowsin the wickerwork where the Persian soldier could pull them
through the shield while still protected then shoot them back!

Likewise, we have the occassionaly reference to slingers doing
similar from rocks which had been thrown their way. I do not recall
any specific reference to ENEMY javelins being collected and thrown
back but it is no trouble imagining this to have happened. Javelin
light troops only carried a very small number and so if there were
any"lying around' so to speak it's no stretch to imagin them picking
up cast offs and throwing them back!

What the pilum trick was about was to avoid the enemy throwing back
ANY pilum, not really the ones stuck in shields alone!

Furthermore, pila stuck in shields were not so cumbersome if they
were rigid. If they bent down 'dragging on the ground' they were
both useless but also damn annoying to try and extract from your
shoield prior to or during close combat. In other words, they
impeded shield function - enemy troops are certainly mentioned as
preferring to cast away their impeded shields rather than trying to
manouvre them with a bent and clumsy pilum stuck in it!

As a result, if you threw a pilum that missed its target but caught
their shield (a very reasonable likelihood!) them the pilum still
gave a sort of consolation prize: it rendered the enemy
disadvantaged by being shieldless.

It was very smart really - the pila were nearly garaunteed to give
some sort of benefit to the thrower - it was just a question of how
much!

Regards

Tibor

\\n


--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, kelly wilkinson
<jwilkinson62@y...> wrote:
>
> Hey now! Be nice to the Polish army, their horse cavalry was some
of the finest of their time. But seriously, was this a problem?
Evidently it was enough for the Romans under Marius to institute
this change. Does anyone here have any thoughts on this?
>
> k
>
> Greg Regets <greg.regets@g...> wrote:
> Is this like that story from the second world war, where one
side
> dropped 10,000 hand grenades on the enemy ... who promptly pulled
out
> the pins and send them back?
>
>
>
> --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "jwilkinson62"
> <jwilkinson62@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi everyone, I noticed that Greg was getting antsy because it is
> too
> > quiet in here so I thought I might see if we can get a good old
> > history of weaponry conversation going. Let me begin with a
quote
> > from "Warfare in the Classical World" by John Warry. . .
> >
> > "The pilum was now used by all legionaires, and Marius
introduced a
> > change in it's manufacture. In place of one of the iron rivets
> which
> > had secured the head to the shaft, he had a wooden peg inserted.
> > When the javelin impaled an enemy shield, the peg broke on
impact
> > and the shaft sagged and trailed on the ground, though still
> > attached to the head by the remaining iron rivet. Not only was
the
> > javelin thus rendered unserviceable to enemy hands, but it
> > encumbered the warrior whose shield it had transfixed. According
to
> > Plutarch, this novelty was introduced in preparation for the
battle
> > with the Cimbri at the battle of Vercellae. At the later date,
in
> > Julius Caeser's army, as a further refinement, the long shank of
> the
> > pilum was made of soft iron, so that it bent even while it
> > penitrated."
> >
> > So my question is this, "Was it common practice for enemy
soldiers
> > to throw back spears/pilum(pre-Marian?)/missiles? If not, why
would
> > the Romans go to the trouble to engineer their pila so that it
> could
> > not be used against them in this manner?"
> >
> > This is just for fun and hopefully it will spark an equally good
> > discussion.
> >
> > kelly
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "tibnmich" <tibnmich@t...> wrote:
>
> As a result, if you threw a pilum that missed its target but caught
> their shield (a very reasonable likelihood!) them the pilum still
> gave a sort of consolation prize: it rendered the enemy
> disadvantaged by being shieldless.
>

So, in Warrior terms, wouldn't this mean that any opponent charged by
pilum-armed Romans should be rendered shieldless??? Hmmm...that might
make an interesting x-rule!

Peter

[Kelly Wilkinson]

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, JonCleaves@a... wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 11/30/2005 05:53:34 Central Standard Time,
> pcelella@c... writes:
>
> So, in Warrior terms, wouldn't this mean that any opponent charged
by
> pilum-armed Romans should be rendered shieldless??? Hmmm...that
might
> make an interesting x-rule!>>
>
>
>
> ]
> This effect is already accounted for in the factors for HTW and its
effect
> on P and LTS armed troops.
>
> Jon
>
>
>If this effect were as you say it is, wouldn't the factor for
shieldlessness be different accounting for armored and non armored
opponents? Verses Shieldless MI the Romans would hit(at a charge) at
a factor of (1hcw)4+3 for shieldless+1(for the charge)=+8 right?
Presently they hit @ a +5 (htw) +1 for the charge=6. Either way, I
don't care whether or how well Warrior expresses this effect as the
effect is just fine the way it is. I'm mainly interested in whether
or not it was that big of a deal to make a weapon that could not be
tossed back. Additionally, I'm curious about the effects of other
heavy weapons that are classed under the same framework as pila. This
is very good discussion and besides it's too quiet according to Greg
in whom I was hoping to ellicit his excellent thoughts!:-)

[Greg Regets]

In ancient wars with Etruscan
Nary a pila was bustin'
The senate promptly forbade
This unsolicited arms trade

They tried a new design at Agrigentum
It was clear the pila had bent `em
The battle was lost in no uncertain terms
Bent pila didn't help with wild paciderms

At the battle of Cannae
Shields were actually thrown away
Things were starting to go well
Numidians shot that to hell

Then at the battle of Actium
Octavian threw the pila back-to-`em
Antony said to Cleopatra, his lovely imp
"Look love, my pila went limp!"


(so much for excellent thoughts)

[joncleaves]

Cannae and away
do not rhyme, I recommend
a haiku instead



-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Regets <greg.regets@...>
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:06:54 -0000
Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: Marian Pila vs HTW







In ancient wars with Etruscan
Nary a pila was bustin'
The senate promptly forbade
This unsolicited arms trade

They tried a new design at Agrigentum
It was clear the pila had bent `em
The battle was lost in no uncertain terms
Bent pila didn't help with wild paciderms

At the battle of Cannae
Shields were actually thrown away
Things were starting to go well
Numidians shot that to hell

Then at the battle of Actium
Octavian threw the pila back-to-`em
Antony said to Cleopatra, his lovely imp
"Look love, my pila went limp!"


(so much for excellent thoughts)









Yahoo! Groups Links






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Greg Regets]

This could quickly regress into God knows what. ;-)


--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, JonCleaves@a... wrote:
>
> Cannae and away
> do not rhyme, I recommend
> a haiku instead
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Greg Regets <greg.regets@g...>
> To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:06:54 -0000
> Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: Marian Pila vs HTW
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> In ancient wars with Etruscan
> Nary a pila was bustin'
> The senate promptly forbade
> This unsolicited arms trade
>
> They tried a new design at Agrigentum
> It was clear the pila had bent `em
> The battle was lost in no uncertain terms
> Bent pila didn't help with wild paciderms
>
> At the battle of Cannae
> Shields were actually thrown away
> Things were starting to go well
> Numidians shot that to hell
>
> Then at the battle of Actium
> Octavian threw the pila back-to-`em
> Antony said to Cleopatra, his lovely imp
> "Look love, my pila went limp!"
>
>
> (so much for excellent thoughts)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Kelly Wilkinson]

Awesome! This is the kind of stuff that makes the Warrior page fun! They say
that you poets and song writers are Bipolar you know. . .

Limp Pilum

Greg Regets <greg.regets@...> wrote:





In ancient wars with Etruscan
Nary a pila was bustin'
The senate promptly forbade
This unsolicited arms trade

They tried a new design at Agrigentum
It was clear the pila had bent `em
The battle was lost in no uncertain terms
Bent pila didn't help with wild paciderms

At the battle of Cannae
Shields were actually thrown away
Things were starting to go well
Numidians shot that to hell

Then at the battle of Actium
Octavian threw the pila back-to-`em
Antony said to Cleopatra, his lovely imp
"Look love, my pila went limp!"


(so much for excellent thoughts)







SPONSORED LINKS
Miniature wargaming Wargaming Four horsemen Warrior

---------------------------------
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Visit your group "WarriorRules" on the web.

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
WarriorRules-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


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