Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Ewan McNay]

Wanax Andron wrote:
> I'm always leary of "D" LC B 1/2 sh. They just go away so fast,
> never wanted to be there, and fail wavers all day long. This is
> mainly what I'm refering to. A 2E RgC LC J/B/sh unit will be able to
> hold up 2 6E IrgD LC units long enough to get some nasties IrgA HC
> L/sh into action. The elephant changes the equation somewhat, so I'd
> have to gain a little reminder time of elephant proof LC and elephant
> coordination. HC L/sh is a push against itself in most cases, but
> the elehpant's disordering would force the infantry into proximity.
> I think it would be fun in both cases and an excellent quirk to gain
> experience in prior to the NICT.

And of course your 2E LC unit will get to play with my 2E LC
unit... and maybe a 6E LC unit just to shoot it disordered. Twice.

:)

But honestly, if the response is going to be to bring up your HC,
I'm happy - now I can shoot HC, and even if you manage to catch
me when charging (meaning that I likely failed a counter *and*
you rolled long) you're going to be probably tired and
disordered, and just meat for my heavy cav. At least in my
scenario )..

> I would agree but for people like Ambrose who don't set the stakes,
> go into skirmish at 120, shoot full effect, then run off as you
> charge. Chances are in such cases, the elephants halt or waver, hit
> tired and disordered if at all, and the nearby IrgC HI 2HCT,Pa guys
> will absolutely punish the elephants in the next bound. However, if
> you were to use a 3 peice combo of LI screen on the LB, HC or EHC
> pound in on the HI 2HCT at the halt impetuously, then come at the LB
> in the next bound with El and more HC after the LI rally back. This
> could be good! The LB are uneasy if the HC win against the HI 2HCT.
> Not sure on factors, but perhaps a second HC unit into the HI in the
> second bound while the elephants are chasing the LB.

Yeah - if I'm fighting HYW and the LB are in skirmish at 120, I'm
moving to 40p with both EL and EHC and the longbow are now
ex-longbow.

And so the battle goes .

> All good points. I tend to hunt down LC with my armies, so looking
> at yours I lick my lips. Only the proximity of elephants would ward
> off my efforts against what are essentially sheildless LC.

Oh, not essentially, the 6E units *are* shieldless . But I'm
still confused at why you think they make good targets for you.

> Even the elephants if JLS-armed come in against them
>
>>with 10@2* and 4@3 (total 30) facing 12@1 (1 and then roll over
>>them next bound. [*This might be 10@1, and I should know this,
>>but the rust, the rust... if 10@1 then 25 to 18 but outcome the
>>same] Second bound I have 10 @ 5 or 6 plus 8@3 for a waver or
>>rout; and I'm IrrB so not rolling down much.
>
>
> Yes the bow armed elephants will also have to endure 2 shots 2@3 and
> 4@1 per element frontage. Typically for a 3 elephant unit like
> yours, you will shoot at 120p with 8@1 for no CPF and I will return
> fire with 6@3 for 1 CPF to you. Your support will then be 15@-1 and
> mine will be 12@1 for another CPF to the elephants. The HI fight per
> element with 6@3 or 15 fatigues, so the elephants if all is even will
> take 3 CPF on the initial combat. The elephants will dish out 5@3
> and 2@1 (I think) for 14 fatigues per element. I think I would give
> 1 crewman a JLS given these factors. You will not shoot the close
> order down with less than 15@2. There is no break between @1 and @2
> there, nor between 12 and 15 factors. If in 6E blocks, seems to me
> the close order will win this unless the elephants have a JLS armed
> crewman in which case it is 1 factor in favor of the elephant.

I think you're running these factors giving yourself the JLS+
*and* me the facing-LTS minus, no? If the close-order are
JLS-armed rather than LTS, then I lead with the lancers as you
note and follow up with - well, with anything really.

> I would still want to work the factors on elephant/cav coordination
> more before I considered how best to use Nikephorians against it.
> Off the top of my head, I know I would go after your MI and
> elephants with Varangians, LMI B and SHC, and I would run down your
> LC with my superior LC, EHC closers, and IrgA HC shock troops. I run
> no close order at all in my latest list (going back to the old ways
> of Byzantines), so I would get there just as quick with more of
> everything but elephants....maybe a fire syphon...nah! Just a waver
> test waiting to happen
>
> Anyway, again the disordering effect of elephants on horses seems to
> be a key focus for your tactical considerations.

Quite possibly, especially against opposing HC (rather than
heavier mounted - my EHC are still going to lose to disordered SHK!)

Nikephorian would make a good battle, I think.

Tell you what. You paint me the Sassanids, I'll buy them and
we'll have the fight .

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Ewan McNay <ewan.mcnay@y...>
wrote:
> And of course your 2E LC unit will get to play with my 2E LC
> unit... and maybe a 6E LC unit just to shoot it disordered. Twice.
>
> :)

Of course, how else am I going to get you to charge my LC? :)

>
> But honestly, if the response is going to be to bring up your HC,
> I'm happy - now I can shoot HC, and even if you manage to catch
> me when charging (meaning that I likely failed a counter *and*
> you rolled long) you're going to be probably tired and
> disordered, and just meat for my heavy cav. At least in my
> scenario )..

unless you charge my shot to peices 2E LC and are canceled...by HC or
charge in the next bound by the same. But this is why I love this
game on the flanks...who can set up the other guy first and not roll
down 4!

> Yeah - if I'm fighting HYW and the LB are in skirmish at 120, I'm
> moving to 40p with both EL and EHC and the longbow are now
> ex-longbow.

If you move second That initiative roll is a killer at the wrong
time.

> Oh, not essentially, the 6E units *are* shieldless . But I'm
> still confused at why you think they make good targets for you.

Because I charge in waves not units I charge into, around, and
over LC and LI to get at evading LC.

Back in the day, one of my favorite tricks with Normans was to run
all 6E LI B with 6x2E IrgA HC L/sh and on the flanks 4x4E IrgC/D MC
L/sh retainers and some LC J/sh. Strip the flanks and win. Let the
MC get hammered by bowfire but charge anyway with the HC. Now
Warrior doesn't make this tactics work as well, and for good reason.
Still, large numbers of wavering LC are good, especially if you can
get the charge angle right to causing 2 evades rather than 1 out of a
single HC unit.

The trick with IrrgA HC is that once launched the chances are they
will explode somewhere in your backfeild not mine If that is the
case, then they caught and routed something, burst through something,
and/or cause a gap in your line for follow on forces. It is just a
simple trick that you've countered many times, but a fun one that
does work if exploited correctly.


> I think you're running these factors giving yourself the JLS+
> *and* me the facing-LTS minus, no? If the close-order are
> JLS-armed rather than LTS, then I lead with the lancers as you
> note and follow up with - well, with anything really.

I'm sorry, the HI are JLS/sh front rank JLS/B back rank. No LTS at
all. Just running factors for the elephants. Not suggesting you'd
use them to lead into such a situation. But...unless EHC or better,
you will not survive contact because of the prep/support shot on HC.
5@7 -2 disordered/tired, shot down 2 in support makes 13 while the HI
give back 6@3 for 15 or 2 CPF to the HC. This is why I love the
crusader bowmen as second rank with JLS, it changes everything for HC
L/sh opponents.


> > Anyway, again the disordering effect of elephants on horses seems
to be a key focus for your tactical considerations.
>
> Quite possibly, especially against opposing HC (rather than
> heavier mounted - my EHC are still going to lose to disordered SHK!)

Not after you shoot him tired with 15@1 from your elephant! :)

> Tell you what. You paint me the Sassanids, I'll buy them and
> we'll have the fight :)

You could probably pick it up on Ebay reasonably. You still live in
England? If so, then look on ebay. Many many armies go there cheap,
especially in Britan.

Good dialogue Ewan.

[Ewan McNay]

Wanax Andron wrote:
>>Yeah - if I'm fighting HYW and the LB are in skirmish at 120, I'm
>>moving to 40p with both EL and EHC and the longbow are now
>>ex-longbow.
>
>
> If you move second That initiative roll is a killer at the wrong
> time.

That's why I am on a horse (elephant) and he is on foot. Move
first, boyo!

>>Oh, not essentially, the 6E units *are* shieldless . But I'm
>>still confused at why you think they make good targets for you.
>
> Because I charge in waves not units I charge into, around, and
> over LC and LI to get at evading LC.

That's all fine... but I think assumes you have some kind of
angle rather than being faced with a coherent line. Either way,
though, I think it's probably been beaten to death.

>>I think you're running these factors giving yourself the JLS+
>>*and* me the facing-LTS minus, no? If the close-order are
>>JLS-armed rather than LTS, then I lead with the lancers as you
>>note and follow up with - well, with anything really.
>
> I'm sorry, the HI are JLS/sh front rank JLS/B back rank. No LTS at
> all. Just running factors for the elephants. Not suggesting you'd
> use them to lead into such a situation. But...unless EHC or better,
> you will not survive contact because of the prep/support shot on HC.
> 5@7 -2 disordered/tired, shot down 2 in support makes 13 while the HI
> give back 6@3 for 15 or 2 CPF to the HC. This is why I love the
> crusader bowmen as second rank with JLS, it changes everything for HC
> L/sh opponents.

Agreed - which was part of my now-long-ago comment about leading
with my EHC/SHC (the latter if available, here) and then
following up with the HC. But your response to that noted a -2
for faciing LTS, I believe... which led me down this path.
Against your particular foot, SHC are godlike.

>>Quite possibly, especially against opposing HC (rather than
>>heavier mounted - my EHC are still going to lose to disordered SHK!)
>
> Not after you shoot him tired with 15@1 from your elephant! :)

If I can do that, I can fight him with the elephant instead (and
he is not good enough to be a threat regardless!)

> You could probably pick it up on Ebay reasonably. You still live in
> England? If so, then look on ebay. Many many armies go there cheap,
> especially in Britan.

No - CT. But I will look.

E