Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[joncleaves]

Ok, Scotty and I have had our mind-meld. Here it is:

1. Waver tests are per cause.
2. Waver tests are immediate.

So, if you suffer more than combat disorder result in the same combat, it is
still ONE CAUSE (2d disorder from combat). One test.

If you have multiple causes, multiple tests. One example is the 3CPF when
already disordered AND can't/won't do my 2CPF response from prep shooting. Two
tests. Tests are immediate, so you must take them before you decide your
response. Failing the 2d disorder waver may therefore make you unable to charge
and then cause another if you are a troop type who charges in response to 2CPF
from prep.

Another example is seeing a general in line of command rout within 120p. One
test for the general, and one test for the unit - two causes, two tests. If the
general's body is outside 120p, one test.

(I will go back and make sure it says EACH body seen in rout, as multiple bodies
is going to be multiple tests.)

Jon

[Greg Regets]

S W E E T !!!!!

-----Original Message-----
From: JonCleaves@... [mailto:JonCleaves@...]
Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 8:57 AM
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [WarriorRules] Multiple Wavers


Ok, Scotty and I have had our mind-meld. Here it is:

1. Waver tests are per cause.
2. Waver tests are immediate.

So, if you suffer more than combat disorder result in the same combat, it is
still ONE CAUSE (2d disorder from combat). One test.

If you have multiple causes, multiple tests. One example is the 3CPF when
already disordered AND can't/won't do my 2CPF response from prep shooting.
Two tests. Tests are immediate, so you must take them before you decide
your response. Failing the 2d disorder waver may therefore make you unable
to charge and then cause another if you are a troop type who charges in
response to 2CPF from prep.

Another example is seeing a general in line of command rout within 120p.
One test for the general, and one test for the unit - two causes, two tests.
If the general's body is outside 120p, one test.

(I will go back and make sure it says EACH body seen in rout, as multiple
bodies is going to be multiple tests.)

Jon

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[Phil Gardocki]

Thanks


1.  Waver tests are per cause.
2.  Waver tests are immediate.

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 4/9/2001 20:48:43 Central Daylight Time, jendon@...
writes:

<< Ok here is where you break down. The 3 CPF from prep shooting and the
cant/wont do my 2 CPF from prep shooting occur simultainiously. Which one
do you test for first? >>

Choose. You'll see it does not matter.
The tests are immediate means before any other game function, not you have to
roll the two dice simultaneously. You could though!

<< Why in your example above did you have the body in
question start disordered? It has NOTHING to do with whether it is TWO
causes of waver or not.>>

Yes, it does. You only take a waver for being disordered if it is from
combat AND you are already disordered. If you are not already disordered, it
is the first cause.

<< If a good order body is in the same situation, who
is to say that they dont have to take the cant/wont do my 2 CPF from prep
waver PRIOR to the 3 CPF disorder? If they were to fail the 2 CPF waver,
the 3 CPF disorder would be combat disorder to a disordered body, causing a
2nd waver (possibly breaking the unit). Am I being thick headed here? >>

You do NOT want me to answer that question.
There is no such thing as a '3CPF' waver. There is a waver for being
disordered by a combat result when you are already disordered.
If you are good order when you are shot for 3CPF in prep, you do not take a
second cause of disorder waver.

Just for you, I will put a line in the rules that says if you have two or
more wavers from the same action, you can make the die rolls in any order you
like. You just have to make them before you return to any other game
function.

Jon, bonker of thick heads

Is good. Many thanks.


--- In WarriorRules@y..., JonCleaves@a... wrote:
> Ok, Scotty and I have had our mind-meld. Here it is:
>
> 1. Waver tests are per cause.
> 2. Waver tests are immediate.
>
> So, if you suffer more than combat disorder result in the same
combat, it is still ONE CAUSE (2d disorder from combat). One test.
>
> If you have multiple causes, multiple tests. One example is the
3CPF when already disordered AND can't/won't do my 2CPF response from
prep shooting. Two tests. Tests are immediate, so you must take them
before you decide your response. Failing the 2d disorder waver may
therefore make you unable to charge and then cause another if you are
a troop type who charges in response to 2CPF from prep.
>
> Another example is seeing a general in line of command rout within
120p. One test for the general, and one test for the unit - two
causes, two tests. If the general's body is outside 120p, one test.
>
> (I will go back and make sure it says EACH body seen in rout, as
multiple bodies is going to be multiple tests.)
>
> Jon

[Don Coon]

> Ok, Scotty and I have had our mind-meld. Here it is:
>
> 1. Waver tests are per cause.
> 2. Waver tests are immediate.

Ok so far.

> So, if you suffer more than combat disorder result in the same combat, it
is still ONE CAUSE (2d disorder from combat). One test.

Thats how we have always done it and it tracks with rule 1 and 2 above. So
far so good.

> If you have multiple causes, multiple tests. One example is the 3CPF when
already disordered AND can't/won't do my 2CPF response from prep shooting.
Two tests. Tests are immediate, so you must take them before you decide
your response. Failing the 2d disorder waver may therefore make you unable
to charge and then cause another if you are a troop type who charges in
response to 2CPF from prep.

Ok here is where you break down. The 3 CPF from prep shooting and the
cant/wont do my 2 CPF from prep shooting occur simultainiously. Which one
do you test for first? Why in your example above did you have the body in
question start disordered? It has NOTHING to do with whether it is TWO
causes of waver or not. If a good order body is in the same situation, who
is to say that they dont have to take the cant/wont do my 2 CPF from prep
waver PRIOR to the 3 CPF disorder? If they were to fail the 2 CPF waver,
the 3 CPF disorder would be combat disorder to a disordered body, causing a
2nd waver (possibly breaking the unit). Am I being thick headed here?

You say tests are IMMEDIATE, but in the example you give they cant be. One
HAS to come first. What ever did you mean by "you must take them before you
decide your response"? It sure sounds like you are saying the 3 CPF caused
disorder waver comes BEFORE the what can I do for the 2 CPF from prep
choice. That is not immediate to me, it is sequential. You say failing the
disorder waver may make you unable to charge, and then force a I cant do a 2
CPF resonse now. You are saying clearly the 2 waver tests are SEQUENTIAL
and NOT IMMEDIATE. Please READ what you have written and disassociate
yourself from what you know to be true. Players (especially new ones) have
to READ the rules. They have no prior knowledge of the game. Your examples
are twisted logic, and will only confuse.

Sorry to rant, but I deal with this same kind of thing on a daily basis at
work. Rules have to be CRYSTAL clear, and leave NO room for weaseling
around. Remember, two things can not both be immediate if one of them is
dependant on the others outcome.

Don

[joncleaves]

[Don 1] "It sure sounds like you are saying the 3 CPF caused disorder
waver....."

[Don 2] "I never said there was a 3 CPF waver."

Hey, Don, it's ok. Our president does the same thing....

:)

Jon

[Don Coon]

> << If a good order body is in the same situation, who
> is to say that they dont have to take the cant/wont do my 2 CPF from prep
> waver PRIOR to the 3 CPF disorder? If they were to fail the 2 CPF waver,
> the 3 CPF disorder would be combat disorder to a disordered body, causing
a
> 2nd waver (possibly breaking the unit). Am I being thick headed here? >>

> You do NOT want me to answer that question.
> There is no such thing as a '3CPF' waver. There is a waver for being
> disordered by a combat result when you are already disordered.
> If you are good order when you are shot for 3CPF in prep, you do not take
a
> second cause of disorder waver.

I never said there was a 3 CPF waver. I do see your point however. The
thickness is clearing away.

> Just for you, I will put a line in the rules that says if you have two or
> more wavers from the same action, you can make the die rolls in any order
you
> like. You just have to make them before you return to any other game
> function.

Wow I feel special.

Don

Excellent! For the most part clear and consistent.

I would like to apologise here and now for all the extraneous issues
that arose unordered from my mind...

--- In WarriorRules@y..., JonCleaves@a... wrote:
> Ok, Scotty and I have had our mind-meld. Here it is:
>
> 1. Waver tests are per cause.

I read this as being each SEPARATE entry on the list of Waver
Tests, which is how I've always done it.

To make this clear, you could reword the bold entry at the top of the
waver test listings in 5.141 from: "Bodies take waver tests in the
following situations:" to:
"Bodies immediately take wavering tests for each and every of the
following situations:"

Then you just have to make sure that it is clear that it is "Each and
every friendly body seen destroyed or in rout within 120 paces" and
"Each and every general in line of command seen disabled or broken
within 240 paces"


(Extraneous Question: why only within 240 paces for generals? Why not
just seen? This would emphasise to players the importance of line of
sight, which I have experienced as being mostly unenforced, especially
with regard to what the CinC knows and CAN RESPOND TO. Is there any
way of strengthening the fog of war aspects? (e.g. The CinC has to
receive a (diced-for) communication from a (general or a unit) whose
tactical situation he cannot directly observe, in order to respond to
it. This would reduce Regulars whinging about those cheap slut
irregulars. This in some way throws it back to his enemy to say, "Hey,
how do you know about that situation way over there? Let's check your
line-of-sight! You can't see it? You HAVE TO dice for comm time!!")

The 240 pace restriction on testing for generals is at odds with the
omnipotence that some generals claim. Or is it merely up to player
honesty (and/or opponent vigilance?) My own belief is that this
aspect of wargaming needs more emphasis, especially for a system that
bases itself on a "top-down" approach to war. I must say I favour this
approach to wargaming, which is why I liked 7th Ed.

What is your answer?)

(PS: Can the Table of Contents include Important "Tables", such as
Waver Tests, Troop Costs, Combat tables, etc. Please. It is very
helpful.)


> 2. Waver tests are immediate.
>
> So, if you suffer more than combat disorder result in the same
combat, it is still ONE CAUSE (2d disorder from combat). One test.

One question here, and it has nothing to do with prep shooting. Say I
am initially steady, but take 3 CPFs from support shooting. Disorder
(but not fatigue) precedes hand-to-hand (11.2) Now in hand-to-hand I
am lucky enough to not take twice as many hand-to-hands, so I don't
break, but I'm unfortunate enough to take ANOTHER 3 CPFs from h-2-h as
well. Is the 3 CPF hand-to-hand result a second cause of disorder,
causing a waver test? Or is it all (support shooting and H-2-H) part
of the one combat result, sparing me a waver test?

Basically, is a support shooting combat result separate from a h-2-h
combat result with respect to disorder? 11.2 implies it is.

My own thoughts are that 1) it is highly unlikely to occur; but 2)
any unit copping that much damage should take a waver test for it
anyway.

What is your ruling, Jon?

Now for some fun...

What if I am disordered BEFORE receiving 3 CPF support shooting?? We
read it (11.2) that a wavering test for 3 CPFs support shooting ALONE
would apply BEFORE hand-to-hand combat is adjudicated.

This has happened to us, and we have ruled that as support shooting
is resolved after the bodies are in contact, the wavering test is
taken after contact but BEFORE h-2-h, and if the charging body fails,
it counts as SHAKEN (and therefore disordered) yet in contact, and
loses all impetuous (which counts until shaken, broken or rallied -
6.164)tactical factors AND all charging factors (our ruling only, on
the basis that a shaken body cannot charge.

It has been argued that they should be given the benefit of charging
momentum, which is countered by the argument of "But the nasty support
shooting has obviously negated their momentum! (-1 for each support
shooting CPF)" - we've been through these discussions more than once,
which is why our original ruling stands (for consistency), and is also
why rule writers are (or go) crazy.). I would dearly love
clarification from a Rule-Writer on this.


>
> If you have multiple causes, multiple tests. One example is the
3CPF when already disordered AND can't/won't do my 2CPF response from
prep shooting. Two tests. Tests are immediate, so you must take
them before you decide your response. Failing the 2d disorder waver
may therefore make you unable to charge and then cause another if you
are a troop type who charges in response to 2CPF from prep.

OK. So what you're saying is, even if my 2 CPF response is to charge,
and I CHOOSE to do this FIRST before I waver for "become disordered
combat result when already disordered", should I fail the disorder
waver, I must then test for NOW being unable to respond with a charge
to 2 CPF?

I should add this caveat. The way my circle of gamers has played 7th
Ed, the answer to my question has always been "Yes!", though shifted
in timing. We have held off waver tests for 2 CPF prep shooting until
it was absolutely necessary to take the obligatory action (or to be
unable to choose it).
In the above example, 3 CPFs prep shooting IMMEDIATELY causes waver
for the disorder result when already disordered. The choice (or
inability, if shaken etc) to charge precipitates a 2 CPF wavering test
just before charge declarations. If the "become disordered etc" waver
was failed, it would automatically trigger the 2 CPF wavering test at
this point. (If the unit was light troops or skirmishers, the choice
would be triggered at the beginning of recall moves. I can now see
that this approach favours defensive players, whereas testing or
choosing during prep shooting can favour an aggressive player, or at
least one with good firepower.)

So do we have to change (2 CPF prep shot), because wavering tests are
immediate? Or can you find any merits to our convention of holding
off the 2 CPf waver until the choice can no longer be avoided? (This
was written earlier than my 5.141 suggested re-wording - my apologies
for being non-linear, but that is how I (fail to) work.)

>
> Another example is seeing a general in line of command rout within
120p. One test for the general, and one test for the unit - two
causes, two tests. If the general's body is outside 120p, one test.
>
> (I will go back and make sure it says EACH body seen in rout, as
multiple bodies is going to be multiple tests.)
>
> Jon


One point of contention for the wavering tests. For Routing Friends -
change the parenthesised wording to:
(Exception: if the router/broken body is a body entirely of LI,
E-class troops, expendables)

The 7th Ed wording was very sloppy, causing some people to argue that
LI and Expendables were excepted from taking such a wavering test FOR
routing and/or destroyed friends.

Cheers,

Terry

[joncleaves]

<<To make this clear, you could reword the bold entry at the top of the waver
test listings in 5.141 from: "Bodies take waver tests in the
following situations:" to:"Bodies immediately take wavering tests for each and
every of the
following situations:">>

It will be something like that.

<<snipped long recommendation to look at 240 pace general in line of command
waver to LOS>>

Not changing it.

<<Say I am initially steady, but take 3 CPFs from support shooting. Disorder
(but not fatigue) precedes hand-to-hand (11.2) Now in hand-to-hand I
am lucky enough to not take twice as many hand-to-hands, so I don't break, but
I'm unfortunate enough to take ANOTHER 3 CPFs from h-2-h as
well. Is the 3 CPF hand-to-hand result a second cause of disorder, causing a
waver test?>>

Yes. Waver test.

<<What if I am disordered BEFORE receiving 3 CPF support shooting?? We read it
(11.2) that a wavering test for 3 CPFs support shooting ALONE
would apply BEFORE hand-to-hand combat is adjudicated.>>

Correct

<<...if my 2 CPF response is to charge,
and I CHOOSE to do this FIRST before I waver for "become disordered combat
result when already disordered">>

You can't choose that yet. You have to waver first. Wavers are immediate and
suspend game functions (including prep shooting responses) until they have been
rolled and resolved.

<<...should I fail the disorder waver, I must then test for NOW being unable to
respond with a charge
to 2 CPF?>>

Possibly. Some troops could still halt and comply with their responses, for
example.

<<One point of contention for the wavering tests. For Routing Friends -
change the parenthesised wording to:
(Exception: if the router/broken body is a body entirely of LI,
E-class troops, expendables)>>

Damn, thought I did that.

Jon

[joncleaves]

<< Does what you say here mean that, where the ONLY option left for being
shot for 3CPF in Prep Shooting is a waver test, the waver test must be
taken immediatly?>>

No, since there is no waver for 3CPF in prep shooting, I can't be saying any
of that. You must be saying something else so I will try and discern it from
the example.

<< Does the effect of failing that test also take effect immediatly?>>

The effects of failed wavers are applied immediately. Always have.

<< Is the act of prep shooting "simultaneous"?>>

With what?

<< eg
Prep Shooting Phase. LI shoot first.
6 element unit LI (3 element JLS,Sh front / 3 element B rear) shoot a
6 element unit MI B for 3CPF. Due to troop and armour type, the only
option for the MI is a waver test.>>

The only response that troop type has from 2 (I say again, 2!) CPF from prep
is a waver. So far so good, except for the 3CPF instead of 2.

<< They roll and fail. So they are now shaken and disordered.>>

Ok. But not for the shot. Opposing prep shots are simultaneous with each
other. I think I see what you were asking above. I suppose what you now
want is a list of how things happen time-wise in the prep shooting phase.
Sigh. Ok, you win.

<< They now shoot the LI. Is the -2 penalty for being shaken / disordered
counted now or at the end of Prep Shooting phase?>>

No. The two shots are simultaneous with each other. You can't insert an
immediate thing between two simultaneous things, or they wouldn't be
simultaneous, would they? I will make said timing list. Sheesh, and you
guys wonder why this takes so long.

<< If the prep shooting is "simultaneous" the EFFECTS of failing the test,
tired for shooting etc should not be taken into account until the shooting
has been resolved.>>

Right.

Jon

Jon,

--- In WarriorRules@y..., JonCleaves@a... wrote:

>> <<...if my 2 CPF response is to charge,
>> and I CHOOSE to do this FIRST before I waver for "become
>>disordered combat result when already disordered"
>
> You can't choose that yet. You have to waver first. Wavers are
immediate and suspend game functions (including prep shooting
responses) until they have been rolled and resolved.
>

Does what you say here mean that, where the ONLY option left for being
shot for 3CPF in Prep Shooting is a waver test, the waver test must be
taken immediatly? Does the effect of failing that test also take
effect immediatly? Is the act of prep shooting "simultaneous"?

eg
Prep Shooting Phase. LI shoot first.
6 element unit LI (3 element JLS,Sh front / 3 element B rear) shoot a
6 element unit MI B for 3CPF. Due to troop and armour type, the only
option for the MI is a waver test. They roll and fail. So they are
now shaken and disordered. They now shoot the LI. Is the -2 penalty
for being shaken / disordered counted now or at the end of Prep
Shooting phase? If the prep shooting is "simultaneous" the EFFECTS of
failing the test, tired for shooting etc should not be taken into
account until the shooting has been resolved.

Cheers

Steve

[Patrick Byrne]

Jon,
I am not crystal clear on the multiple waver situations. I have listed some
situations below, please review and provide answers. Your answers should clear
up my confusion.

1. A Unit of IrrC (not previously damaged) receives 3 CPF from prep shooting.
They test for waiver because of 2 CPF and can not choose a response. They fail.
They become shaken/disordered. Must they now test waiver for receiving 3 CPF
(combat disordered while disordered)?
A- If I am clear the answer is Yes, they become disordered for receiving 3 CPF
then they test for waiver for no response to receiving 2 CPF. Is this correct?

2. A unit of disordered IrrC receives 3 CPF from prep shooting. They test for
waiver for receiving combat disordered while disordered. They fail. Must they
test for waiver for no response to receiving 2 CPF?
A- If I am clear the answer is Yes, they test waiver for receiving 2 CPF. Is
this correct?

3. A Unit of Reg B Cav (not previously damaged) receives 3 CPF from prep
shooting. They choose to charge because of the 2 CPF from prep shooting. They
become disordered for receiving 3 CPF. Now a unit next to them is shaken and
receives 3 CPF. That unit tests waiver and fails and breaks. Stay with me
here....
In charge declarations the broken unit is charged and must route, right then.
The disordered unit who was going to charge must now test waiver for seeing a
friend in route. He fails and is shaken and can not carry out the charge he
had. Must he test for waiver for not being able to charge?
A- If I am clear the answer is Yes, they test for not being able to respond to
the 2 CPF. Is this correct?

-PB

Jon,

Thank you. I was sure this would be the answer, it just looked wrong.
And yes, I did screw up on the 2CPF, well spotted.

You were correct, it was the timeing of the test effect I was looking
at, not the mechanism. I have no problem with the prep shot/support
shot/HtH waver mechanism, played 'em like this for years.

Cheers


--- In WarriorRules@y..., JonCleaves@a... wrote:
> << Does what you say here mean that, where the ONLY option left for
being
> shot for 3CPF in Prep Shooting is a waver test, the waver test must
be
> taken immediatly?>>
>
> No, since there is no waver for 3CPF in prep shooting, I can't be
saying any
> of that. You must be saying something else so I will try and
discern it from
> the example.
>
> << Does the effect of failing that test also take effect
immediatly?>>
>
> The effects of failed wavers are applied immediately. Always have.
>
> << Is the act of prep shooting "simultaneous"?>>
>
> With what?
>
> << eg
> Prep Shooting Phase. LI shoot first.
> 6 element unit LI (3 element JLS,Sh front / 3 element B rear) shoot
a
> 6 element unit MI B for 3CPF. Due to troop and armour type, the
only
> option for the MI is a waver test.>>
>
> The only response that troop type has from 2 (I say again, 2!) CPF
from prep
> is a waver. So far so good, except for the 3CPF instead of 2.
>
> << They roll and fail. So they are now shaken and disordered.>>
>
> Ok. But not for the shot. Opposing prep shots are simultaneous
with each
> other. I think I see what you were asking above. I suppose what
you now
> want is a list of how things happen time-wise in the prep shooting
phase.
> Sigh. Ok, you win.
>
> << They now shoot the LI. Is the -2 penalty for being shaken /
disordered
> counted now or at the end of Prep Shooting phase?>>
>
> No. The two shots are simultaneous with each other. You can't
insert an
> immediate thing between two simultaneous things, or they wouldn't be
> simultaneous, would they? I will make said timing list. Sheesh,
and you
> guys wonder why this takes so long.
>
> << If the prep shooting is "simultaneous" the EFFECTS of failing
the test,
> tired for shooting etc should not be taken into account until the
shooting
> has been resolved.>>
>
> Right.
>
> Jon

[joncleaves]

<< 1. A Unit of IrrC>>

Sigh. Irr C what?

<< (not previously damaged) receives 3 CPF from prep shooting.
They test for waiver because of 2 CPF and can not choose a response.>>

Sigh. Its waver. Football players get put on waivers.
Why can they not choose a response? What are they? Ok, let's say they are
shieldless non-light non-skirmishing foot.

<< They fail.>>

They would..... :)

<< They become shaken/disordered. Must they now test waiver for receiving 3
CPF
(combat disordered while disordered)?>>

No. What combat results disorder cause did they suffer while already
disordered? Failing a waver is a failing a waver cause of disorder. I have
already said that I will list in 11.2 EXACTLY what are combat results
disorders and failing a waver is not on that list. 3CPF IS a combat disorder
cause, but when they received that result, they were steady.

<< 2. A unit of disordered IrrC receives 3 CPF from prep shooting. They
test for
waiver for receiving combat disordered while disordered. They fail. Must
they
test for waiver for no response to receiving 2 CPF?>>

Yes, IF they cannot or do not choose their prep shooting response. A unit of
Irr LC, for example, could still recall.

<< 3. A Unit of Reg B Cav (not previously damaged) receives 3 CPF from prep
shooting. They choose to charge because of the 2 CPF from prep shooting.>>

I assume this means they are not LC...

<< They become disordered for receiving 3 CPF. Now a unit next to them is
shaken and
receives 3 CPF. That unit tests waiver and fails and breaks. Stay with me
here.... In charge declarations the broken unit is charged and must route,
right then.
The disordered unit who was going to charge must now test waiver for seeing a
friend in route. He fails and is shaken and can not carry out the charge he
had. Must he test for waiver for not being able to charge?>>

Yes. Again, assuming it is not Reg B LIGHT Cav.

PLEASE Gang, include troop types in your examples. It matters, and I'd
rather not guess and make one email into two or three.