Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

Hi there everyone, this is the list I took to the Pandemonium tournament this
weekend. I finished second, defeating a Hohenstafen Sicillian army and Hoplites.
Greg Hauser ran right over me with his Ghazvanid Army. His army had 3 elephant
units. I have to give him full credit for how quickly he got into attack
position. He was all over me on the second turn. For my part, I misjudged the
matchups and tried to cover too much of the board. My army was spread too thin,
and I couldn't concentrate my forces.

Anyway, I wanted to post my list for comments. I find that I win most of the
game in the woods with my Tribal warriors and on the flanks with my nomadic
cavalry. My Infantry contributed very little, except to hold a portion of the
battlefield. I think this will be a different story at higher point levels. The
infantry are in large units to absorb damage and hold a line. For HTH, they can
contract frontage and be 1.5 ranks of 2HCT. As long as they're winning, their
happy.

Here is the list;

Unit
Elements

Points
Scout
Break

Han General
2
Reg A LCh CB PA Std
156
2
1

Shu
8
Reg D HI 1/2 2HCT, Sh 1/2 MI CB
138
0
1

Shu
8
Reg D HI 1/2 2HCT, Sh 1/2 MI CB
138
0
1

Yue Warriors
2
Irr A LMI JLS, Sh
55
0
1

Yue Warriors
2
Irr A LMI JLS, Sh
55
0
1

Han Skirmishers
4
Reg D LI B
26
2
1

Han Skirmishers
4
Reg D LI B
26
2
1

Di Warriors
4
Irr C LMI JLS, B, Sh
73
0
1

Di Archers
8
Irr C LI B
57
4
1

Baggage
4
Irr D Tr
0
0
0








Sub Total


724
10
4.5








Xiongnu General
2
Irr B HC JLS, B, 1/2 Sh P Std
124
2
1

Xiongnu Nobles
2
Irr B HC JLS, B, 1/2 Sh
79
2
1

Xiongnu Nobles
2
Irr B HC JLS, B, 1/2 Sh
79
2
1

Xiongnu Archers
6
Irr C LC JLS, B, 1/2 Sh
97
18
1

Xiongnu Archers
6
Irr C LC JLS, B, 1/2 Sh
97
18
1








Sub Total


476
42
2.5








Total


1200
52
7





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Egad, it looked really nice in rich text, sorry about the formatting guys.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Allan Lougheed" <redcoat24@...>
To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 7:54 PM
Subject: [WarriorRules] my 1200 pt Han List


>
> Hi there everyone, this is the list I took to the Pandemonium tournament
> this weekend. I finished second, defeating a Hohenstafen Sicillian army
> and Hoplites. Greg Hauser ran right over me with his Ghazvanid Army. His
> army had 3 elephant units. I have to give him full credit for how quickly
> he got into attack position. He was all over me on the second turn. For my
> part, I misjudged the matchups and tried to cover too much of the board.
> My army was spread too thin, and I couldn't concentrate my forces.
>
> Anyway, I wanted to post my list for comments. I find that I win most of
> the game in the woods with my Tribal warriors and on the flanks with my
> nomadic cavalry. My Infantry contributed very little, except to hold a
> portion of the battlefield. I think this will be a different story at
> higher point levels. The infantry are in large units to absorb damage and
> hold a line. For HTH, they can contract frontage and be 1.5 ranks of 2HCT.
> As long as they're winning, their happy.
>
> Here is the list;
>
> Unit
> Elements
>
> Points
> Scout
> Break
>
> Han General
> 2
> Reg A LCh CB PA Std
> 156
> 2
> 1
>
> Shu
> 8
> Reg D HI 1/2 2HCT, Sh 1/2 MI CB
> 138
> 0
> 1
>
> Shu
> 8
> Reg D HI 1/2 2HCT, Sh 1/2 MI CB
> 138
> 0
> 1
>
> Yue Warriors
> 2
> Irr A LMI JLS, Sh
> 55
> 0
> 1
>
> Yue Warriors
> 2
> Irr A LMI JLS, Sh
> 55
> 0
> 1
>
> Han Skirmishers
> 4
> Reg D LI B
> 26
> 2
> 1
>
> Han Skirmishers
> 4
> Reg D LI B
> 26
> 2
> 1
>
> Di Warriors
> 4
> Irr C LMI JLS, B, Sh
> 73
> 0
> 1
>
> Di Archers
> 8
> Irr C LI B
> 57
> 4
> 1
>
> Baggage
> 4
> Irr D Tr
> 0
> 0
> 0
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sub Total
>
>
> 724
> 10
> 4.5
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Xiongnu General
> 2
> Irr B HC JLS, B, 1/2 Sh P Std
> 124
> 2
> 1
>
> Xiongnu Nobles
> 2
> Irr B HC JLS, B, 1/2 Sh
> 79
> 2
> 1
>
> Xiongnu Nobles
> 2
> Irr B HC JLS, B, 1/2 Sh
> 79
> 2
> 1
>
> Xiongnu Archers
> 6
> Irr C LC JLS, B, 1/2 Sh
> 97
> 18
> 1
>
> Xiongnu Archers
> 6
> Irr C LC JLS, B, 1/2 Sh
> 97
> 18
> 1
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sub Total
>
>
> 476
> 42
> 2.5
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Total
>
>
> 1200
> 52
> 7
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Ewan McNay]

Interesting to hear of the Ghaznavid succcess. I was inspired by Mark to
look through OW and HW, and I think that the list has potential; the *BIG*
problem is the absence of elephant-proofing for the cavalry (although they
can be camel-proofed, despite having no camels in the list). So you are
essentially forced to have an elephant/infantry centre-wing, and a refused
cavalry wing, I think.

My list on initial construction was something like:
CinC in 3E unit of IrrB El, P/JLS/B with PA
Sub ditto with P
Sub ditto with P
3x2E Reg B HC L, B, Sh
6E IrrB LC B, 1/2 JLS, Sh*
6E and 4E Reg D HI JLS, B, Sh**
2x4E Reg B LHI, LTS or JLS, B, Sh (likely one of LTS, one of JLS; possibly
two JLS).
3x4E Reg D LI B, Sh
some Irr LI B unit, I forget detail.

Aiming to win with El supported by foot, delay on one flank (and fight on
short frontage, as Allan notes) with cav/LI/maybe a unit of Dailami.

*Thinking likely able to match up against opposing LC and take wavers
where needed as eager B class.

**My bane of Ghaznavid construction has always been the hideously
expensive all-HI compulsory foot. I want them as regular to allow for
regular LI and cav, so this is as cheap as they can be, although only 4E
are compulsory. They may work well with the El and Dailami, would be the
hope.

Anyway, thoughts/suggestions for 1600-point Ghaz lists welcome.

Yes, Kelly, I'll get to that 2000 point Khmer at some stage..

E

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005, Allan Lougheed wrote:

>
> Hi there everyone, this is the list I took to the Pandemonium tournament this
weekend. I finished second, defeating a Hohenstafen Sicillian army and Hoplites.
Greg Hauser ran right over me with his Ghazvanid Army. His army had 3 elephant
units. I have to give him full credit for how quickly he got into attack
position. He was all over me on the second turn. For my part, I misjudged the
matchups and tried to cover too much of the board. My army was spread too thin,
and I couldn't concentrate my forces.
>
> Anyway, I wanted to post my list for comments. I find that I win most of the
game in the woods with my Tribal warriors and on the flanks with my nomadic
cavalry. My Infantry contributed very little, except to hold a portion of the
battlefield. I think this will be a different story at higher point levels. The
infantry are in large units to absorb damage and hold a line. For HTH, they can
contract frontage and be 1.5 ranks of 2HCT. As long as they're winning, their
happy.
>
> Here is the list;
>
> Unit
> Elements
>
> Points
> Scout
> Break
>
> Han General
> 2
> Reg A LCh CB PA Std
> 156
> 2
> 1
>
> Shu
> 8
> Reg D HI 1/2 2HCT, Sh 1/2 MI CB
> 138
> 0
> 1
>
> Shu
> 8
> Reg D HI 1/2 2HCT, Sh 1/2 MI CB
> 138
> 0
> 1
>
> Yue Warriors
> 2
> Irr A LMI JLS, Sh
> 55
> 0
> 1
>
> Yue Warriors
> 2
> Irr A LMI JLS, Sh
> 55
> 0
> 1
>
> Han Skirmishers
> 4
> Reg D LI B
> 26
> 2
> 1
>
> Han Skirmishers
> 4
> Reg D LI B
> 26
> 2
> 1
>
> Di Warriors
> 4
> Irr C LMI JLS, B, Sh
> 73
> 0
> 1
>
> Di Archers
> 8
> Irr C LI B
> 57
> 4
> 1
>
> Baggage
> 4
> Irr D Tr
> 0
> 0
> 0
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sub Total
>
>
> 724
> 10
> 4.5
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Xiongnu General
> 2
> Irr B HC JLS, B, 1/2 Sh P Std
> 124
> 2
> 1
>
> Xiongnu Nobles
> 2
> Irr B HC JLS, B, 1/2 Sh
> 79
> 2
> 1
>
> Xiongnu Nobles
> 2
> Irr B HC JLS, B, 1/2 Sh
> 79
> 2
> 1
>
> Xiongnu Archers
> 6
> Irr C LC JLS, B, 1/2 Sh
> 97
> 18
> 1
>
> Xiongnu Archers
> 6
> Irr C LC JLS, B, 1/2 Sh
> 97
> 18
> 1
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sub Total
>
>
> 476
> 42
> 2.5
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Total
>
>
> 1200
> 52
> 7
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

That looks spookily familiar.

I think to counter this, I should have aggressively pushed my 2 Infantry
blocks right down the centre, each with a unit of tribal warriors (Irr A LMI
JLS Sh) for a counter punch. On the widest flank, put my nomadic cavalry to
delay and avoid dying as you say. On the other flank use the Di warriors,
who might enjoy fighting elephants if they don't waver and some of the LI B.

I think the tribal warriors might succeed in doing one of those elephant
units in, combined with the 1.5 ranks of 2HCT.

Do you think that's a sound plan?

I'm surprised that spookily passed the spellcheck, I didn't think it was a
word.

----- Original Message -----
From: <ewan.mcnay@...>
To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 8:32 PM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] my 1200 pt Han List


>
> Interesting to hear of the Ghaznavid succcess. I was inspired by Mark to
> look through OW and HW, and I think that the list has potential; the *BIG*
> problem is the absence of elephant-proofing for the cavalry (although they
> can be camel-proofed, despite having no camels in the list). So you are
> essentially forced to have an elephant/infantry centre-wing, and a refused
> cavalry wing, I think.
>
> My list on initial construction was something like:
> CinC in 3E unit of IrrB El, P/JLS/B with PA
> Sub ditto with P
> Sub ditto with P
> 3x2E Reg B HC L, B, Sh
> 6E IrrB LC B, 1/2 JLS, Sh*
> 6E and 4E Reg D HI JLS, B, Sh**
> 2x4E Reg B LHI, LTS or JLS, B, Sh (likely one of LTS, one of JLS; possibly
> two JLS).
> 3x4E Reg D LI B, Sh
> some Irr LI B unit, I forget detail.
>
> Aiming to win with El supported by foot, delay on one flank (and fight on
> short frontage, as Allan notes) with cav/LI/maybe a unit of Dailami.
>
> *Thinking likely able to match up against opposing LC and take wavers
> where needed as eager B class.
>
> **My bane of Ghaznavid construction has always been the hideously
> expensive all-HI compulsory foot. I want them as regular to allow for
> regular LI and cav, so this is as cheap as they can be, although only 4E
> are compulsory. They may work well with the El and Dailami, would be the
> hope.
>
> Anyway, thoughts/suggestions for 1600-point Ghaz lists welcome.
>
> Yes, Kelly, I'll get to that 2000 point Khmer at some stage..
>
> E
>
> On Mon, 28 Feb 2005, Allan Lougheed wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi there everyone, this is the list I took to the Pandemonium tournament
>> this weekend. I finished second, defeating a Hohenstafen Sicillian army
>> and Hoplites. Greg Hauser ran right over me with his Ghazvanid Army. His
>> army had 3 elephant units. I have to give him full credit for how quickly
>> he got into attack position. He was all over me on the second turn. For
>> my part, I misjudged the matchups and tried to cover too much of the
>> board. My army was spread too thin, and I couldn't concentrate my forces.
>>
>> Anyway, I wanted to post my list for comments. I find that I win most of
>> the game in the woods with my Tribal warriors and on the flanks with my
>> nomadic cavalry. My Infantry contributed very little, except to hold a
>> portion of the battlefield. I think this will be a different story at
>> higher point levels. The infantry are in large units to absorb damage and
>> hold a line. For HTH, they can contract frontage and be 1.5 ranks of
>> 2HCT. As long as they're winning, their happy.
>>
>> Here is the list;
>>
>> Unit
>> Elements
>>
>> Points
>> Scout
>> Break
>>
>> Han General
>> 2
>> Reg A LCh CB PA Std
>> 156
>> 2
>> 1
>>
>> Shu
>> 8
>> Reg D HI 1/2 2HCT, Sh 1/2 MI CB
>> 138
>> 0
>> 1
>>
>> Shu
>> 8
>> Reg D HI 1/2 2HCT, Sh 1/2 MI CB
>> 138
>> 0
>> 1
>>
>> Yue Warriors
>> 2
>> Irr A LMI JLS, Sh
>> 55
>> 0
>> 1
>>
>> Yue Warriors
>> 2
>> Irr A LMI JLS, Sh
>> 55
>> 0
>> 1
>>
>> Han Skirmishers
>> 4
>> Reg D LI B
>> 26
>> 2
>> 1
>>
>> Han Skirmishers
>> 4
>> Reg D LI B
>> 26
>> 2
>> 1
>>
>> Di Warriors
>> 4
>> Irr C LMI JLS, B, Sh
>> 73
>> 0
>> 1
>>
>> Di Archers
>> 8
>> Irr C LI B
>> 57
>> 4
>> 1
>>
>> Baggage
>> 4
>> Irr D Tr
>> 0
>> 0
>> 0
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sub Total
>>
>>
>> 724
>> 10
>> 4.5
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Xiongnu General
>> 2
>> Irr B HC JLS, B, 1/2 Sh P Std
>> 124
>> 2
>> 1
>>
>> Xiongnu Nobles
>> 2
>> Irr B HC JLS, B, 1/2 Sh
>> 79
>> 2
>> 1
>>
>> Xiongnu Nobles
>> 2
>> Irr B HC JLS, B, 1/2 Sh
>> 79
>> 2
>> 1
>>
>> Xiongnu Archers
>> 6
>> Irr C LC JLS, B, 1/2 Sh
>> 97
>> 18
>> 1
>>
>> Xiongnu Archers
>> 6
>> Irr C LC JLS, B, 1/2 Sh
>> 97
>> 18
>> 1
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sub Total
>>
>>
>> 476
>> 42
>> 2.5
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Total
>>
>>
>> 1200
>> 52
>> 7
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I love this list. Is is quite similar to Timurid, with a little less
finesse but a little to a lot more punch. The Daimami are the heart of the
army, and the other foot should perform quite well assuming you keep them
close to your elephants. I think what makes this army better than most
elephant armies is both the good foot support and the fact that the
elephants are some of the few outside of the Macedonian armies that actually
get pike --and they are Irr B to boot.

Sure, the HC would be better is they could be elephant proofed, but given
the relative small number of light troops you are taking in this list, your
HC will be needed to hold your flanks while your 9 elements of elephants
crush the center. BTW, these comments apply to a 25mm army. I think your
list is a bit too ponderous for a 15mm game (I'd get rid of one of your
close order foot unit in that case and get more LC if you could).

Frankly, I'm surprised that this army isn't seen at cons more often.


----- Original Message -----
From: <ewan.mcnay@...>
To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 8:32 PM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] my 1200 pt Han List


>
> Interesting to hear of the Ghaznavid succcess. I was inspired by Mark to
> look through OW and HW, and I think that the list has potential; the *BIG*
> problem is the absence of elephant-proofing for the cavalry (although they
> can be camel-proofed, despite having no camels in the list). So you are
> essentially forced to have an elephant/infantry centre-wing, and a refused
> cavalry wing, I think.
>
> My list on initial construction was something like:
> CinC in 3E unit of IrrB El, P/JLS/B with PA
> Sub ditto with P
> Sub ditto with P
> 3x2E Reg B HC L, B, Sh
> 6E IrrB LC B, 1/2 JLS, Sh*
> 6E and 4E Reg D HI JLS, B, Sh**
> 2x4E Reg B LHI, LTS or JLS, B, Sh (likely one of LTS, one of JLS; possibly
> two JLS).
> 3x4E Reg D LI B, Sh
> some Irr LI B unit, I forget detail.
>
> Aiming to win with El supported by foot, delay on one flank (and fight on
> short frontage, as Allan notes) with cav/LI/maybe a unit of Dailami.
>
> *Thinking likely able to match up against opposing LC and take wavers
> where needed as eager B class.
>
> **My bane of Ghaznavid construction has always been the hideously
> expensive all-HI compulsory foot. I want them as regular to allow for
> regular LI and cav, so this is as cheap as they can be, although only 4E
> are compulsory. They may work well with the El and Dailami, would be the
> hope.
>
> Anyway, thoughts/suggestions for 1600-point Ghaz lists welcome.
>
> Yes, Kelly, I'll get to that 2000 point Khmer at some stage..
>
> E
>
> On Mon, 28 Feb 2005, Allan Lougheed wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi there everyone, this is the list I took to the Pandemonium tournament
>> this weekend. I finished second, defeating a Hohenstafen Sicillian army
>> and Hoplites. Greg Hauser ran right over me with his Ghazvanid Army. His
>> army had 3 elephant units. I have to give him full credit for how quickly
>> he got into attack position. He was all over me on the second turn. For
>> my part, I misjudged the matchups and tried to cover too much of the
>> board. My army was spread too thin, and I couldn't concentrate my forces.
>>
>> Anyway, I wanted to post my list for comments. I find that I win most of
>> the game in the woods with my Tribal warriors and on the flanks with my
>> nomadic cavalry. My Infantry contributed very little, except to hold a
>> portion of the battlefield. I think this will be a different story at
>> higher point levels. The infantry are in large units to absorb damage and
>> hold a line. For HTH, they can contract frontage and be 1.5 ranks of
>> 2HCT. As long as they're winning, their happy.
>>
>> Here is the list;
>>
>> Unit
>> Elements
>>
>> Points
>> Scout
>> Break
>>
>> Han General
>> 2
>> Reg A LCh CB PA Std
>> 156
>> 2
>> 1
>>
>> Shu
>> 8
>> Reg D HI 1/2 2HCT, Sh 1/2 MI CB
>> 138
>> 0
>> 1
>>
>> Shu
>> 8
>> Reg D HI 1/2 2HCT, Sh 1/2 MI CB
>> 138
>> 0
>> 1
>>
>> Yue Warriors
>> 2
>> Irr A LMI JLS, Sh
>> 55
>> 0
>> 1
>>
>> Yue Warriors
>> 2
>> Irr A LMI JLS, Sh
>> 55
>> 0
>> 1
>>
>> Han Skirmishers
>> 4
>> Reg D LI B
>> 26
>> 2
>> 1
>>
>> Han Skirmishers
>> 4
>> Reg D LI B
>> 26
>> 2
>> 1
>>
>> Di Warriors
>> 4
>> Irr C LMI JLS, B, Sh
>> 73
>> 0
>> 1
>>
>> Di Archers
>> 8
>> Irr C LI B
>> 57
>> 4
>> 1
>>
>> Baggage
>> 4
>> Irr D Tr
>> 0
>> 0
>> 0
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sub Total
>>
>>
>> 724
>> 10
>> 4.5
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Xiongnu General
>> 2
>> Irr B HC JLS, B, 1/2 Sh P Std
>> 124
>> 2
>> 1
>>
>> Xiongnu Nobles
>> 2
>> Irr B HC JLS, B, 1/2 Sh
>> 79
>> 2
>> 1
>>
>> Xiongnu Nobles
>> 2
>> Irr B HC JLS, B, 1/2 Sh
>> 79
>> 2
>> 1
>>
>> Xiongnu Archers
>> 6
>> Irr C LC JLS, B, 1/2 Sh
>> 97
>> 18
>> 1
>>
>> Xiongnu Archers
>> 6
>> Irr C LC JLS, B, 1/2 Sh
>> 97
>> 18
>> 1
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sub Total
>>
>>
>> 476
>> 42
>> 2.5
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Total
>>
>>
>> 1200
>> 52
>> 7
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Ewan McNay]

David Markowitz wrote:

> I love this list. Is is quite similar to Timurid, with a little less
> finesse but a little to a lot more punch. The Daimami are the heart of the
> army, and the other foot should perform quite well assuming you keep them
> close to your elephants. I think what makes this army better than most
> elephant armies is both the good foot support and the fact that the
> elephants are some of the few outside of the Macedonian armies that actually
> get pike --and they are Irr B to boot.
>
> Sure, the HC would be better is they could be elephant proofed, but given
> the relative small number of light troops you are taking in this list, your
> HC will be needed to hold your flanks while your 9 elements of elephants
> crush the center. BTW, these comments apply to a 25mm army. I think your
> list is a bit too ponderous for a 15mm game (I'd get rid of one of your
> close order foot unit in that case and get more LC if you could).
>
> Frankly, I'm surprised that this army isn't seen at cons more often.

The El are just great - the best available anywhere. It's working out how
to support them that is tricky. If there were more Dailami available,
they would be preferable to the HI, but there just are not many decent
infantry in the list.

I did have two units of LC, and fewer HI, on first draft, and agree that
may be better. [[Jon may argue again that there should be no differences
between 15 and 25mm... but I'm glad that there are! Having just tried to
play even a half-LC army in 25mm on a constricted table... damn tough.]]


>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <ewan.mcnay@...>
> To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 8:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] my 1200 pt Han List
>
>
>
>>Interesting to hear of the Ghaznavid succcess. I was inspired by Mark to
>>look through OW and HW, and I think that the list has potential; the *BIG*
>>problem is the absence of elephant-proofing for the cavalry (although they
>>can be camel-proofed, despite having no camels in the list). So you are
>>essentially forced to have an elephant/infantry centre-wing, and a refused
>>cavalry wing, I think.
>>
>>My list on initial construction was something like:
>>CinC in 3E unit of IrrB El, P/JLS/B with PA
>>Sub ditto with P
>>Sub ditto with P
>>3x2E Reg B HC L, B, Sh
>>6E IrrB LC B, 1/2 JLS, Sh*
>>6E and 4E Reg D HI JLS, B, Sh**
>>2x4E Reg B LHI, LTS or JLS, B, Sh (likely one of LTS, one of JLS; possibly
>>two JLS).
>>3x4E Reg D LI B, Sh
>>some Irr LI B unit, I forget detail.
>>
>>Aiming to win with El supported by foot, delay on one flank (and fight on
>>short frontage, as Allan notes) with cav/LI/maybe a unit of Dailami.
>>
>>*Thinking likely able to match up against opposing LC and take wavers
>>where needed as eager B class.
>>
>>**My bane of Ghaznavid construction has always been the hideously
>>expensive all-HI compulsory foot. I want them as regular to allow for
>>regular LI and cav, so this is as cheap as they can be, although only 4E
>>are compulsory. They may work well with the El and Dailami, would be the
>>hope.

[Ewan McNay]

Allan, your list requires too much effort to try to read, I'm afraid. The
IrrA guys would be obvious targets for bowfire, and should not be able to
dent the El absent very good dice (they're too small).

Allan Lougheed wrote:

> That looks spookily familiar.
>
> I think to counter this, I should have aggressively pushed my 2 Infantry
> blocks right down the centre, each with a unit of tribal warriors (Irr A LMI
> JLS Sh) for a counter punch. On the widest flank, put my nomadic cavalry to
> delay and avoid dying as you say. On the other flank use the Di warriors,
> who might enjoy fighting elephants if they don't waver and some of the LI B.
>
> I think the tribal warriors might succeed in doing one of those elephant
> units in, combined with the 1.5 ranks of 2HCT.
>
> Do you think that's a sound plan?
>
> I'm surprised that spookily passed the spellcheck, I didn't think it was a
> word.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <ewan.mcnay@...>
> To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 8:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] my 1200 pt Han List
>
>
>
>>Interesting to hear of the Ghaznavid succcess. I was inspired by Mark to
>>look through OW and HW, and I think that the list has potential; the *BIG*
>>problem is the absence of elephant-proofing for the cavalry (although they
>>can be camel-proofed, despite having no camels in the list). So you are
>>essentially forced to have an elephant/infantry centre-wing, and a refused
>>cavalry wing, I think.
>>
>>My list on initial construction was something like:
>>CinC in 3E unit of IrrB El, P/JLS/B with PA
>>Sub ditto with P
>>Sub ditto with P
>>3x2E Reg B HC L, B, Sh
>>6E IrrB LC B, 1/2 JLS, Sh*
>>6E and 4E Reg D HI JLS, B, Sh**
>>2x4E Reg B LHI, LTS or JLS, B, Sh (likely one of LTS, one of JLS; possibly
>>two JLS).
>>3x4E Reg D LI B, Sh
>>some Irr LI B unit, I forget detail.
>>
>>Aiming to win with El supported by foot, delay on one flank (and fight on
>>short frontage, as Allan notes) with cav/LI/maybe a unit of Dailami.
>>
>>*Thinking likely able to match up against opposing LC and take wavers
>>where needed as eager B class.
>>
>>**My bane of Ghaznavid construction has always been the hideously
>>expensive all-HI compulsory foot. I want them as regular to allow for
>>regular LI and cav, so this is as cheap as they can be, although only 4E
>>are compulsory. They may work well with the El and Dailami, would be the
>>hope.
>>
>>Anyway, thoughts/suggestions for 1600-point Ghaz lists welcome.
>>
>>Yes, Kelly, I'll get to that 2000 point Khmer at some stage..
>>
>>E
>>
>>On Mon, 28 Feb 2005, Allan Lougheed wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Hi there everyone, this is the list I took to the Pandemonium tournament
>>>this weekend. I finished second, defeating a Hohenstafen Sicillian army
>>>and Hoplites. Greg Hauser ran right over me with his Ghazvanid Army. His
>>>army had 3 elephant units. I have to give him full credit for how quickly
>>>he got into attack position. He was all over me on the second turn. For
>>>my part, I misjudged the matchups and tried to cover too much of the
>>>board. My army was spread too thin, and I couldn't concentrate my forces.
>>>
>>>Anyway, I wanted to post my list for comments. I find that I win most of
>>>the game in the woods with my Tribal warriors and on the flanks with my
>>>nomadic cavalry. My Infantry contributed very little, except to hold a
>>>portion of the battlefield. I think this will be a different story at
>>>higher point levels. The infantry are in large units to absorb damage and
>>>hold a line. For HTH, they can contract frontage and be 1.5 ranks of
>>>2HCT. As long as they're winning, their happy.
>>>
>>>Here is the list;
>>>
>>> Unit
>>> Elements
>>>
>>> Points
>>> Scout
>>> Break
>>>
>>> Han General
>>> 2
>>> Reg A LCh CB PA Std
>>> 156
>>> 2
>>> 1
>>>
>>> Shu
>>> 8
>>> Reg D HI 1/2 2HCT, Sh 1/2 MI CB
>>> 138
>>> 0
>>> 1
>>>
>>> Shu
>>> 8
>>> Reg D HI 1/2 2HCT, Sh 1/2 MI CB
>>> 138
>>> 0
>>> 1
>>>
>>> Yue Warriors
>>> 2
>>> Irr A LMI JLS, Sh
>>> 55
>>> 0
>>> 1
>>>
>>> Yue Warriors
>>> 2
>>> Irr A LMI JLS, Sh
>>> 55
>>> 0
>>> 1
>>>
>>> Han Skirmishers
>>> 4
>>> Reg D LI B
>>> 26
>>> 2
>>> 1
>>>
>>> Han Skirmishers
>>> 4
>>> Reg D LI B
>>> 26
>>> 2
>>> 1
>>>
>>> Di Warriors
>>> 4
>>> Irr C LMI JLS, B, Sh
>>> 73
>>> 0
>>> 1
>>>
>>> Di Archers
>>> 8
>>> Irr C LI B
>>> 57
>>> 4
>>> 1
>>>
>>> Baggage
>>> 4
>>> Irr D Tr
>>> 0
>>> 0
>>> 0
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sub Total
>>>
>>>
>>> 724
>>> 10
>>> 4.5
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Xiongnu General
>>> 2
>>> Irr B HC JLS, B, 1/2 Sh P Std
>>> 124
>>> 2
>>> 1
>>>
>>> Xiongnu Nobles
>>> 2
>>> Irr B HC JLS, B, 1/2 Sh
>>> 79
>>> 2
>>> 1
>>>
>>> Xiongnu Nobles
>>> 2
>>> Irr B HC JLS, B, 1/2 Sh
>>> 79
>>> 2
>>> 1
>>>
>>> Xiongnu Archers
>>> 6
>>> Irr C LC JLS, B, 1/2 Sh
>>> 97
>>> 18
>>> 1
>>>
>>> Xiongnu Archers
>>> 6
>>> Irr C LC JLS, B, 1/2 Sh
>>> 97
>>> 18
>>> 1
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sub Total
>>>
>>>
>>> 476
>>> 42
>>> 2.5
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Total
>>>
>>>
>>> 1200
>>> 52
>>> 7
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[joncleaves]

Allan

I'd like to comment on your han list, but it looks different enough from
Oriental Warrior that I think it might have another source - what product is the
base list from?

J

[joncleaves]

I did have two units of LC, and fewer HI, on first draft, and agree that
may be better. [[Jon may argue again that there should be no differences
between 15 and 25mm... but I'm glad that there are! Having just tried to
play even a half-LC army in 25mm on a constricted table... damn tough.]]>>

Oh no, I quite agree.

There is no doubt that NASAMW-standard tourney formats cause one to make
different lists for 25mm v 15mm games. I also agree that the table size
distortions make for a slightly different game. I am NOT looking to open old
wounds, but all I ever said about the two scales is that non-proportional tables
do not make them different enough that they become two different games -
Certainly not so different that entirely separate skills are required to play
them. That is *all* I said...lol

No doubt the reduced size 25mm table helps certain armies cover the table better
- one reason Scott keeps the reduced size table. The other being finding 10'
tables at a con and fitting them in is impractical...lol

J

[Ewan McNay]

JonCleaves@... wrote:

> I did have two units of LC, and fewer HI, on first draft, and agree
> that may be better. [[Jon may argue again that there should be no
> differences between 15 and 25mm... but I'm glad that there are! Having
> just tried to play even a half-LC army in 25mm on a constricted
> table... damn tough.]]>>
>
> Oh no, I quite agree.
>
> There is no doubt that NASAMW-standard tourney formats cause one to
> make different lists for 25mm v 15mm games. I also agree that the
> table size distortions make for a slightly different game. I am NOT
> looking to open old wounds, but all I ever said about the two scales is
> that non-proportional tables do not make them different enough that
> they become two different games - Certainly not so different that
> entirely separate skills are required to play them. That is *all* I
> said...lol

This seems an appropriate time to award Jon the (newly-minted) McNay
Citation for Improved Behavior.

This is actually a serious note. A while back, I berated Jon in fairly
severe terms for his manner on-list. To his great credit, it seems that
he has actually acted on the feedback (both that and some sought off-list)
and modified his conduct. Especially as one who deals with behaviour
modification, I see this as a large achievement, which deserves laurels.

Now, no-one here is likely to mistake this for a statement that I feel Jon
is either (i) right on all - even most! - of the issues we discuss (the
comments above included...), nor (ii) always a model of appropriate
conduct (!). But, and again I'm quite serious, I have seen a large
improvement in at least the latter . And if I'm going to criticise in
public... the least I can do is also praise occasionally.

E






((Now, about that $10 I owe you...))

[Doug]

> all I ever said about the two scales is that non-proportional
>tables do not make them different enough that they become two
>different games - Certainly not so different that entirely separate
>skills are required to play them. That is *all* I said...lol
>
>No doubt the reduced size 25mm table helps certain armies cover the
>table better - one reason Scott keeps the reduced size table. The
>other being finding 10' tables at a con and fitting them in is
>impractical
>J

Hmmm... So if you wanted to practice for a 15mm tournament using 25mm
figs, what table size would you want to use? And vice versa?

[joncleaves]

Hmmm... So if you wanted to practice for a 15mm tournament using 25mm
figs, what table size would you want to use? And vice versa?>>

Note that this answer concerns the way NASAMW sets up tables and tourneys - no
one is making anyone do things this way anywhere else.

Use 25's to practice for 15's: Play 25's on a 9.5' x 6.5' table

Use 15's to practice for 25's: Play 15's on a 5'x3'

J

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 3/1/2005 17:08:36 Central Standard Time,
redcoat24@... writes:

Nope, it's right out of OW, I use my own names for some of the units though
Perhaps it's the format too, should I repost it?>>


It would make it much easier to comment on it.









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nope, it's right out of OW, I use my own names for some of the units though
Perhaps it's the format too, should I repost it?


----- Original Message -----
From: <JonCleaves@...>
To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 9:05 AM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] my 1200 pt Han List


>
> Allan
>
> I'd like to comment on your han list, but it looks different enough from
> Oriental Warrior that I think it might have another source - what product
> is the base list from?
>
> J
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hi Ewan, I reposted my list, so your welcome to have another look if you
like.

The Idea I have with the Irr A JLS, Sh is that they attack an El unit that
is already in contact with my spear unit. I've used it successfully against
Burmese. The Irr A dont get shot because they are essentially in reserve. Of
course, this depends on my spear block not breaking at contact.

What if the Di Warriors and the 2 Tribal Irr A units cooperate vs and El
unit? The two spear units would be on their own in that situation I guess.
Is that a better idea?


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ewan McNay" <ewan.mcnay@...>
To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] my 1200 pt Han List


>
> Allan, your list requires too much effort to try to read, I'm afraid. The
> IrrA guys would be obvious targets for bowfire, and should not be able to
> dent the El absent very good dice (they're too small).
>
> Allan Lougheed wrote:
>
>> That looks spookily familiar.
>>
>> I think to counter this, I should have aggressively pushed my 2 Infantry
>> blocks right down the centre, each with a unit of tribal warriors (Irr A
>> LMI
>> JLS Sh) for a counter punch. On the widest flank, put my nomadic cavalry
>> to
>> delay and avoid dying as you say. On the other flank use the Di warriors,
>> who might enjoy fighting elephants if they don't waver and some of the LI
>> B.
>>
>> I think the tribal warriors might succeed in doing one of those elephant
>> units in, combined with the 1.5 ranks of 2HCT.
>>
>> Do you think that's a sound plan?
>>
>> I'm surprised that spookily passed the spellcheck, I didn't think it was
>> a
>> word.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <ewan.mcnay@...>
>> To: <WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 8:32 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] my 1200 pt Han List
>>
>>
>>
>>>Interesting to hear of the Ghaznavid succcess. I was inspired by Mark to
>>>look through OW and HW, and I think that the list has potential; the
>>>*BIG*
>>>problem is the absence of elephant-proofing for the cavalry (although
>>>they
>>>can be camel-proofed, despite having no camels in the list). So you are
>>>essentially forced to have an elephant/infantry centre-wing, and a
>>>refused
>>>cavalry wing, I think.
>>>
>>>My list on initial construction was something like:
>>>CinC in 3E unit of IrrB El, P/JLS/B with PA
>>>Sub ditto with P
>>>Sub ditto with P
>>>3x2E Reg B HC L, B, Sh
>>>6E IrrB LC B, 1/2 JLS, Sh*
>>>6E and 4E Reg D HI JLS, B, Sh**
>>>2x4E Reg B LHI, LTS or JLS, B, Sh (likely one of LTS, one of JLS;
>>>possibly
>>>two JLS).
>>>3x4E Reg D LI B, Sh
>>>some Irr LI B unit, I forget detail.
>>>
>>>Aiming to win with El supported by foot, delay on one flank (and fight on
>>>short frontage, as Allan notes) with cav/LI/maybe a unit of Dailami.
>>>
>>>*Thinking likely able to match up against opposing LC and take wavers
>>>where needed as eager B class.
>>>
>>>**My bane of Ghaznavid construction has always been the hideously
>>>expensive all-HI compulsory foot. I want them as regular to allow for
>>>regular LI and cav, so this is as cheap as they can be, although only 4E
>>>are compulsory. They may work well with the El and Dailami, would be the
>>>hope.
>>>
>>>Anyway, thoughts/suggestions for 1600-point Ghaz lists welcome.
>>>
>>>Yes, Kelly, I'll get to that 2000 point Khmer at some stage..
>>>
>>>E
>>>
>>>On Mon, 28 Feb 2005, Allan Lougheed wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Hi there everyone, this is the list I took to the Pandemonium tournament
>>>>this weekend. I finished second, defeating a Hohenstafen Sicillian army
>>>>and Hoplites. Greg Hauser ran right over me with his Ghazvanid Army. His
>>>>army had 3 elephant units. I have to give him full credit for how
>>>>quickly
>>>>he got into attack position. He was all over me on the second turn. For
>>>>my part, I misjudged the matchups and tried to cover too much of the
>>>>board. My army was spread too thin, and I couldn't concentrate my
>>>>forces.
>>>>
>>>>Anyway, I wanted to post my list for comments. I find that I win most of
>>>>the game in the woods with my Tribal warriors and on the flanks with my
>>>>nomadic cavalry. My Infantry contributed very little, except to hold a
>>>>portion of the battlefield. I think this will be a different story at
>>>>higher point levels. The infantry are in large units to absorb damage
>>>>and
>>>>hold a line. For HTH, they can contract frontage and be 1.5 ranks of
>>>>2HCT. As long as they're winning, their happy.
>>>>
>>>>Here is the list;
>>>>
>>>> Unit
>>>> Elements
>>>>
>>>> Points
>>>> Scout
>>>> Break
>>>>
>>>> Han General
>>>> 2
>>>> Reg A LCh CB PA Std
>>>> 156
>>>> 2
>>>> 1
>>>>
>>>> Shu
>>>> 8
>>>> Reg D HI 1/2 2HCT, Sh 1/2 MI CB
>>>> 138
>>>> 0
>>>> 1
>>>>
>>>> Shu
>>>> 8
>>>> Reg D HI 1/2 2HCT, Sh 1/2 MI CB
>>>> 138
>>>> 0
>>>> 1
>>>>
>>>> Yue Warriors
>>>> 2
>>>> Irr A LMI JLS, Sh
>>>> 55
>>>> 0
>>>> 1
>>>>
>>>> Yue Warriors
>>>> 2
>>>> Irr A LMI JLS, Sh
>>>> 55
>>>> 0
>>>> 1
>>>>
>>>> Han Skirmishers
>>>> 4
>>>> Reg D LI B
>>>> 26
>>>> 2
>>>> 1
>>>>
>>>> Han Skirmishers
>>>> 4
>>>> Reg D LI B
>>>> 26
>>>> 2
>>>> 1
>>>>
>>>> Di Warriors
>>>> 4
>>>> Irr C LMI JLS, B, Sh
>>>> 73
>>>> 0
>>>> 1
>>>>
>>>> Di Archers
>>>> 8
>>>> Irr C LI B
>>>> 57
>>>> 4
>>>> 1
>>>>
>>>> Baggage
>>>> 4
>>>> Irr D Tr
>>>> 0
>>>> 0
>>>> 0
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sub Total
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 724
>>>> 10
>>>> 4.5
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Xiongnu General
>>>> 2
>>>> Irr B HC JLS, B, 1/2 Sh P Std
>>>> 124
>>>> 2
>>>> 1
>>>>
>>>> Xiongnu Nobles
>>>> 2
>>>> Irr B HC JLS, B, 1/2 Sh
>>>> 79
>>>> 2
>>>> 1
>>>>
>>>> Xiongnu Nobles
>>>> 2
>>>> Irr B HC JLS, B, 1/2 Sh
>>>> 79
>>>> 2
>>>> 1
>>>>
>>>> Xiongnu Archers
>>>> 6
>>>> Irr C LC JLS, B, 1/2 Sh
>>>> 97
>>>> 18
>>>> 1
>>>>
>>>> Xiongnu Archers
>>>> 6
>>>> Irr C LC JLS, B, 1/2 Sh
>>>> 97
>>>> 18
>>>> 1
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sub Total
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 476
>>>> 42
>>>> 2.5
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Total
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1200
>>>> 52
>>>> 7
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>