Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Paul Georgian]

In a message dated 12/25/2005 1:08:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, cncbump"
<cncbump@...>writes:

>>As another example, I
have read a couple of sources that describe them as being armed
with "short heavy throwing spears". I assume that was the description
you used to warrent arming them with HTW, because I have not found
any reference to pila or such. I do not believe that HTW is in fact
warranted but rathter that heavy throwing spear was a generic term
applied to weapons other than the the long spear or Javelin. It
certainly seems a bit of a leap in logic that the pila would have
ceased being used around 400 and then reapeared 400 years later with
an army that put so little stock in its infantry arm.<<

Ah, Chris too much Warrior (used to be WRG) weaponspeak here. Heavy
throwing spear is a generic category encompassing method of use rather than a
specific single weapon type like Pila. For example, the Frankish angon and
francisca are also considered HTW's. Generally the difference in a HTW and
missile weapon like a javelin is HTW is used just prior to the point of contact
in hand to hand. At any rate, as I stated previously, it's really all a
matter of personal interpretation.

Paul G.






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Chris Bump]

Yep, I agree. I think where we cease thinking in the parallel is
when assuming the description of a weapon is always literal. I am
saying that a throwing spear was not necessarily thrown nor even
intended to be thrown, but was more of a generic term, like we might
call a howitzer a cannon, or any tracked vehicle a tank.

I am in complete agreement with you on the multiple forms of HTW used
in Warrior. My point is that all such 'just prior to close combat
type of missle weapons' do not appear to really apply to what I have
come across as far as what the Menaultoi were armed with. I used the
term pila because if the Byzantines used anything like a HTW it would
probably more closely resemble that than a francisca. I have read
that they were armed with a short heavy throwing spear. I do not
believe that any of the sources that I have read support the notion
of a HTW as per Warrior defenitions. It is apparent that they used a
spear as a primary weapon, not as a missle, which all forms of
Warrior defined HTW are. Hence my querry. My only point behind this
whole vein was that I think that they are allowed too many options;
options that I have been trying to find in order to justify painting
and modeling them with. I haven't been able to thus far and that was
the reason for the initial querry about thoughts for the pike
decision.

You have written that it is all open to interpretation, and I suppose
with a liberal (not meant in a political definition, but rather quite
literally) stance that the various weapons choices could be
justified. I just don't believe so. I know, I know, I can do what
ever I want and don't have to parade my pike armed figures 4 deep if
I don't think that is accurate. I just hope for more than the
standard quip from time to time from such an august body of
historians.
Chris

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, PaulByzan@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 12/25/2005 1:08:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,
cncbump"
> <cncbump@v...>writes:
>
> >>As another example, I
> have read a couple of sources that describe them as being armed
> with "short heavy throwing spears". I assume that was the
description
> you used to warrent arming them with HTW, because I have not found
> any reference to pila or such. I do not believe that HTW is in
fact
> warranted but rathter that heavy throwing spear was a generic term
> applied to weapons other than the the long spear or Javelin. It
> certainly seems a bit of a leap in logic that the pila would have
> ceased being used around 400 and then reapeared 400 years later
with
> an army that put so little stock in its infantry arm.<<
>
> Ah, Chris too much Warrior (used to be WRG) weaponspeak here.
Heavy
> throwing spear is a generic category encompassing method of use
rather than a
> specific single weapon type like Pila. For example, the Frankish
angon and
> francisca are also considered HTW's. Generally the difference in
a HTW and
> missile weapon like a javelin is HTW is used just prior to the
point of contact
> in hand to hand. At any rate, as I stated previously, it's really
all a
> matter of personal interpretation.
>
> Paul G.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Doug]

>>>
I just hope for more than the standard quip from time to time
from such an august body of historians.
>>>

How about "History is bunk?"