Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

In one of a million manifestations of this list, I've reverted now to
my old way of running things. Probably for the worst, but here it is
for disection:

CNC as EHC L/sh staff element only
2x2E RgB EHC L/sh
1x2E RgB SHC L/sh
4x2E RgC LC B/sh
1x6E IrgB LHI 2HCW/JLS/sh JLS/sh
2x4E RgD LI S/sh B
1x6E RgD LI S/sh B
2x4E RgD LMI B/sh B
1x2E IrgA/B HC L/sh
1x6E IrgB/C LC J/B/sh J/B
1198 points
15 units
55 scout points

For 1600 add:
covert LHI into 2x4E IrgB LHI 2HCW/J/sh J/sh
1x2E RgB SHC L/sh
2x2E IrgC HC L/sh
1x4E IrgC LC J/sh

[Ewan McNay]

What hits me immediately is how horribly vulnerable this list is
to knights. So many heavy-but-not-heavy-enough cav units,
especially in the 1600 version.

I think that LMI B are probably best in 6E (unlike combat LMI
which I still prefer in 4E, despite recent contrary opinions). I
think that the IrrA HC are not needed, and the Irr LC a
distraction but probably (i) compulsory and (ii) not fatal. I'm
surprised at how few LI you have - this is one of the armies that
wants to win the lights battle, and comparing it to the Sassanids
we've been discussing, you're going to lose conclusively in both
LI and LC, while risking enough that those losses hurt.

Was that brief and brutish enough? :)

E

Wanax Andron wrote:

> In one of a million manifestations of this list, I've reverted now to
> my old way of running things. Probably for the worst, but here it is
> for disection:
>
> CNC as EHC L/sh staff element only
> 2x2E RgB EHC L/sh
> 1x2E RgB SHC L/sh
> 4x2E RgC LC B/sh
> 1x6E IrgB LHI 2HCW/JLS/sh JLS/sh
> 2x4E RgD LI S/sh B
> 1x6E RgD LI S/sh B
> 2x4E RgD LMI B/sh B
> 1x2E IrgA/B HC L/sh
> 1x6E IrgB/C LC J/B/sh J/B
> 1198 points
> 15 units
> 55 scout points
>
> For 1600 add:
> covert LHI into 2x4E IrgB LHI 2HCW/J/sh J/sh
> 1x2E RgB SHC L/sh
> 2x2E IrgC HC L/sh
> 1x4E IrgC LC J/sh
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Ewan McNay <ewan.mcnay@y...>
wrote:
> What hits me immediately is how horribly vulnerable this list is
> to knights. So many heavy-but-not-heavy-enough cav units,
> especially in the 1600 version.

Well sadly I'm working mainly with the figs I have available.

>
> I think that LMI B are probably best in 6E (unlike combat LMI
> which I still prefer in 4E, despite recent contrary opinions).

This is, yes, the current debate. My personal experience has been
that 6E shooter tend to get in the way of my shock troops at the
wrong time. I will eventually add a third such unit at the cost of
the Frankish K, but for now I have limited funds for figures. I also
prefer 4E for combat for the self same reason (space). Like 2E
mounted I would rather this stuff explode in place than rout if
things go wrong.

I
> think that the IrrA HC are not needed, and the Irr LC a
> distraction but probably (i) compulsory and (ii) not fatal.

These crappy mounted are, again, fodder to win the flanks. I want
the mulsim LC to take the enemy prep shooting so the el'cheap-o arab
lancers can charge in and hopefully roll long. At 74 points, I can
loose both an still be on par with a typical 6E asiatic LC unit
points wise. not compusory at all, but weight of numbers and chances
of rolling long. Just have to keep them eagar, so away from
elephants and such...maybe advance a banner ;)

I'm
> surprised at how few LI you have - this is one of the armies that
> wants to win the lights battle, and comparing it to the Sassanids
> we've been discussing, you're going to lose conclusively in both
> LI and LC, while risking enough that those losses hurt.


In this you are somewhat correct. I designed this army to fight
shooting armies, so the LI are there to take shooting fatigues from
Ambrose's LB essentially while the mounted try to isolate and shoot
up his limited number of SHK/HC units.

For LC, I'm not sure. You may have number in the shot, but I can
spread thin and take the shot in order to get the HC into position
without too much damage. I only need catch 1 "D" LC usually and that
shakes the others. I will have at least 3 tries on first charge
opportunity. Reckless, remember :)

>
> Was that brief and brutish enough? :)

Sure. I think against K type armies, I would simply skirmish around
and try to go after the usual supporting cast of MI LTS/Pa or LHI
CB. Nothing loves to face SHK like S/sh armed LI, so that is an
obvious attempt there. SHC crush the LTS/Pa guys, and basically I
would try to get the K to charge after LC in hopes of getting them
tired and unimpetous.


Remember, I run 1200 points on 4x6 boards, so the games do not
include more than a bound or 2 of skirmishing. The small games are
fast, violent, and exciting. At 1600 points, I am probably not
thinking as clearly as I should on how to make the game prolonged in
order to take advantages of my manuverability. I might forego the
IrgC HC in order to pick up more JLS armed LI or some other stuff.

Wanax

[Mark Stone]

--- On April 23 Eway McNay said: ---

> What hits me immediately is how horribly vulnerable this list is
> to knights. So many heavy-but-not-heavy-enough cav units,
> especially in the 1600 version.

Well, I'm not really going to disagree with Ewan here, but I'll try to be less
"brutish".

>
> I think that LMI B are probably best in 6E (unlike combat LMI
> which I still prefer in 4E, despite recent contrary opinions).

Yes! I could write a whole treatise (who knows, maybe at some point I will) on
why 6 elements is the correct unit size for line troops.

> I'm surprised at how few LI you have - this is one of the armies that
> wants to win the lights battle, and comparing it to the Sassanids
> we've been discussing, you're going to lose conclusively in both
> LI and LC, while risking enough that those losses hurt.

Couldn't agree more. Nike Byz gets some of _the_ best LI in game. If you aren't
buying more of it, then you probably don't appreciate the full value of
shielded, regular LI, in which case this might not be the army for you. Why
play an army if you aren't going to play to one of its major strengths?

>
> Was that brief and brutish enough?
>
>
> Wanax Andron wrote:
>>
>> In one of a million manifestations of this list, I've reverted now to
>> my old way of running things. Probably for the worst, but here it is
>> for disection:
>>
>> CNC as EHC L/sh staff element only
>> 2x2E RgB EHC L/sh
>> 1x2E RgB SHC L/sh
>> 4x2E RgC LC B/sh
>> 1x6E IrgB LHI 2HCW/JLS/sh JLS/sh

I think, even on 1200 points, you need to find a way to buy all the Varangians
and put them in two 4 stand units. They are the best all around shock troops
you have, so you should make maximum use of them. Also, there are too many
situations where you need to send in one unit of Varangians one bound, and the
other unit of Varangians the next. If you have no "other unit" that tactic
doesn't work very well.

>> 2x4E RgD LI S/sh B
>> 1x6E RgD LI S/sh B

I'm very sympathetic to the temptation to buy the LI this way (having flirted
with the idea myself), but I think it's the wrong way to go. The temptation is
this: because S fires shielded, you can fire shielded with 2 full ranks in this
formation. The problem is that (a) being shielded doesn't always buy you enough
protection, and (b) having sling in the front rank often weakens your
cababilities as a shooter. In effect, you're trying to serve two purposes here,
and thus serving neither one well.

Decide whether you want to maximize the shooting your LI put out, or maximize
their resistance to shooting. You may want some units of each. If you want to
maximize the shooting you put out, then go with all bow. If you want to
maximize resistance to shooting, then go with all sling.

>> 2x4E RgD LMI B/sh B
>> 1x2E IrgA/B HC L/sh
>> 1x6E IrgB/C LC J/B/sh J/B
>> 1198 points
>> 15 units
>> 55 scout points
>>
>> For 1600 add:
>> covert LHI into 2x4E IrgB LHI 2HCW/J/sh J/sh
>> 1x2E RgB SHC L/sh
>> 2x2E IrgC HC L/sh
>> 1x4E IrgC LC J/sh

So, I wouldn't buy any of these latter three units on 1600 points. The SHC are
cool, and a unique unit, but they are soooo expensive I'd never buy more than
one such unit.

And Irr C cavalry who don't have a missile weapon? I don't think so, especially
on a list when there are so many other quality troops available to buy. Buy
more LI. Buy more reg LC. Buy the bolt shooters even. But not these guys.


-Mark Stone

[Mark Stone]

--- On April 23 Wanax said: ---

> Remember, I run 1200 points on 4x6 boards, so the games do not
> include more than a bound or 2 of skirmishing. The small games are
> fast, violent, and exciting. At 1600 points, I am probably not
> thinking as clearly as I should on how to make the game prolonged in
> order to take advantages of my manuverability.

Ah, that would a dream come true for me, to play someone on a small table with
1200 points who doesn't expect there to be very much skirmishing.... Even on
1200 points I've won far more games with my light troops than I have with my
knights.


-Mark Stone

[Ewan McNay]

Mark Stone wrote:
> Well, I'm not really going to disagree with Ewan here, but I'll try to be less
> "brutish".

Oh, I don't know. But as I agree with your points also (except
for the generality of 6E units), welcome, fellow brute (!).

(Et tu, brute?)

> Decide whether you want to maximize the shooting your LI put out, or maximize
> their resistance to shooting. You may want some units of each. If you want to
> maximize the shooting you put out, then go with all bow. If you want to
> maximize resistance to shooting, then go with all sling.

...and if you want to maximise ability to clear away other LI, go
with all JLS.

>>>For 1600 add:
>>>covert LHI into 2x4E IrgB LHI 2HCW/J/sh J/sh
>>>1x2E RgB SHC L/sh
>>>2x2E IrgC HC L/sh
>>>1x4E IrgC LC J/sh
>
> So, I wouldn't buy any of these latter three units on 1600 points. The SHC are
> cool, and a unique unit, but they are soooo expensive I'd never buy more than
> one such unit.
>
> And Irr C cavalry who don't have a missile weapon? I don't think so,
especially
> on a list when there are so many other quality troops available to buy. Buy
> more LI. Buy more reg LC. Buy the bolt shooters even. But not these guys.

I decided that I had been brutish enough by the time I got to
this point - but, what he said. I see the rationale for the IrrC
HC - i.e., they're cheap - but the LC; well, just say no.

[But Mark, buying boltshooters? Really? I'd advise buyiing
ditches or something first...]

e

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Mark Stone <mark@d...> wrote:
> --- On April 23 Wanax said: ---

> Ah, that would a dream come true for me, to play someone on a small
table with
> 1200 points who doesn't expect there to be very much
skirmishing.... Even on
> 1200 points I've won far more games with my light troops than I
have with my
> knights.
>
>
> -Mark Stone

I'm not so sure Mark. I see your point, but I just know how quick I
will ride down the LI and follow up to intercept your kniggits with
mine. And if you have LI stacked, then maybe I can get some sweeping
action and converted charges before I have to confont SHK types.

I also must admit that my LI style is unorthodox in that I do use
them to advance to the rear, thus the 4E units. I want the enemy to
advance to a point where I can get his LI trapped. A 6E LI B/sh B
unit is worth points, but 2 such animals equal 1 Frankish HC unit
that takes them out, and they provide much more need to the player.
My Franks explode in your rear (no pun intended) and we are even
except you have a hole in your screen.

For skirmishing with LC, I have yet to have a game where the LC shoot
more than twice before charging/evading/rallying back exhausted at
1200 points.

Anyway, you two brutes made your points about LI. Perhaps I'll
reconfigure some. I just hate trying to rely upon something that is
going to go away.

Wanax

[Mark Stone]

--- On April 23 Wanax said: ---

> I'm not so sure Mark. I see your point, but I just know how quick I
> will ride down the LI and follow up to intercept your kniggits with
> mine. And if you have LI stacked, then maybe I can get some sweeping
> action and converted charges before I have to confont SHK types.

I know you believe this, but I've yet to see it demonstrated on the table. Yes,
I get more of my LI units routed than other units, but it's pretty rare for me
to lose more than 1 LI unit in a game, even on 1200 points. I think people
underestimate how tough it is to kill well-supported LI.

> For skirmishing with LC, I have yet to have a game where the LC shoot
> more than twice before charging/evading/rallying back exhausted at
> 1200 points.

Well, I almost never lose an LC unit. They move _after_ your foot in approaches,
so have no business being in danger of getting shot up by a foot unit unless
I've either (a) screwed up or (b) intended it that way for some other gain. And
if your bow-armed mounted want to trade shots with my LC, then go right ahead.
I'll take that matchup all day long.

>
> Anyway, you two brutes made your points about LI. Perhaps I'll
> reconfigure some. I just hate trying to rely upon something that is
> going to go away.

Don't play a troop type you're not comfortable with. Yes, shielded regular
bow-armed LI are a very powerful troop type, but not everyone "groks" how to
use them. I recognize that both elephants are pikemen are potent, but I don't
like to play using either. Just doesn't suit my playing style. Fit your playing
style first; then find the troops to match. If LI aren't it, then so be it.


-Mark Stone

[Greg Regets]

My .02

I would buy the minimum Regular HC, L, B, Sh, and forgo the Irregular
HC, EHC and SHC.

I would buy spearmen in four stand units with a front rank of HI @
122 per unit. These fight pretty well against most things, and this
list gives you lots of stuff to help with knights, and "moog-like"
foot.

On that note, I would buy a bit of the cheap as dirt Reg LMI S Sh.

I would buy real terrain troops and ALL the artillery on carts, and
there is a reason I mentioned those two things together. ~wink~

I'm with Ewan on the six stand foot archer units, especially if you
plan on being fast to combat. The four stand unit give questionable
results at long range.

I'm also with Ewan on more LI units.

I would buy a few Asiatic light cavalry in four stand units with
JLS,B,Sh in front and B in back. These would be married at the hip to
light infantry, and playing that old, "shoot me and I run away and
rally while you shoot my buddy", game.

I would avoid getting carried away with buying too much of anything,
and hope that he runs out of either rocks, paper or scissors, before
I do. This betrays my feelings towards the proper use of this army. :-
)

g