Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[joncleaves]

Kevin
List horse and I are still working on that one. I will have to let you know.

Regarding 8.5: To me, except for the fact that elephants are softer
and moodier than wooden towers, there seems to be little difference between
shooters in a mobile tower and shooters in an elephant tower. Accordingly,
why can't shooters in an elephant tower "shoot all around"?


Kevin

[scott holder]

Regarding 8.5: To me, except for the fact that elephants are softer
and moodier than wooden towers, there seems to be little difference between
shooters in a mobile tower and shooters in an elephant tower. Accordingly,
why can't shooters in an elephant tower "shoot all around"?

>Because the historical evidence that's available in English doesn't even hint
at the flexibility which is suggested by elephant artillery shooting all
round. Seriously, there is a sizeable difference between a "hard" target
hauling around an artillery piece (in this case that would be either a cart
and/or tower) and a "soft" target of a breathing, shuffling, slightly
unpredictable elephant. Moreover, the few things in English that are
avaialble don't really indicate that elephant artillery was as "robust" as
something mounted on a cart. Admitedly the evidence in English isn't
substantive or terribly conclusive, therefore I'm choosing to "err" on the
conservative side. In fact, Phil and I discussed this very issue many years
ago when the source material was translated and what you see in Warrior is
pretty much the result of that conversation and my interpretation of the
available information.

Scott
List ho

OK? So let me get this straight, elephant pikes, javelins and whatever else
that may be readily available, may be jabbed, thrust and otherwise poked in
any direction from an elephant tower so long as it is not tossed, lobbed or
in any way propelled in any of those same directions except forward? What
if I find a picture that shows shooters daring to aim either to the left or
the right of their mounts? Does it have to be in English?

I sincerely apologize for the "slight" delve into sarcasm, Scott, but this
whole argument sounds like it should be coming out of a courtroom rather
than a game room. If memory serves, didn't the Romans drill at "parting the
cohorts" to allow the rampaging pachyderms to lumber between their ranks
while they pelting the hapless animals in their flanks as they scurried past
and out the other side? I find it very hard to imagine that Hannibal would
have restricted his archers to targets seen only by the elephant.

Furthermore, I would hate to be the guy sitting on the front of the
elephant when it's time for the archers, perched near the tail, to start
loosing those volleys. "OK! Everyone lean left, the twins are feel'n
lucky!"

Kevin

-----Original Message-----
From: Holder, Scott <FHWA> [SMTP:Scott.Holder@...]
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2000 3:11 PM
To: WarriorRules@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Of Towered Elephants and Mobile
Towers


Regarding 8.5: To me, except for the fact that elephants are softer
and moodier than wooden towers, there seems to be little difference
between
shooters in a mobile tower and shooters in an elephant tower.
Accordingly,
why can't shooters in an elephant tower "shoot all around"?

>Because the historical evidence that's available in English doesn't
even hint
at the flexibility which is suggested by elephant artillery shooting
all
round. Seriously, there is a sizeable difference between a "hard"
target
hauling around an artillery piece (in this case that would be either
a cart
and/or tower) and a "soft" target of a breathing, shuffling,
slightly
unpredictable elephant. Moreover, the few things in English that
are
avaialble don't really indicate that elephant artillery was as
"robust" as
something mounted on a cart. Admitedly the evidence in English
isn't
substantive or terribly conclusive, therefore I'm choosing to "err"
on the
conservative side. In fact, Phil and I discussed this very issue
many years
ago when the source material was translated and what you see in
Warrior is
pretty much the result of that conversation and my interpretation of
the
available information.

Scott
List ho























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[Tim Brown]

>>>OK?  So let me get this straight, elephant pikes, javelins and whatever else>>>that may be readily available, may be jabbed, thrust and otherwise poked in>>>any direction from an elephant tower so long as it is not tossed, lobbed or>>>in any way propelled in any of those same directions except forward?  What>>>if I find a picture that shows shooters daring to aim either to the left or>>>the right of their mounts?  Does it have to be in English?
You have to admit when he puts it that way not allowing shooting all around doesn't make much sense! Perhaps a recount on this idea?
 
Tim Brown
 

[joncleaves]

Let's keep all this in perspective.

An elephant element is 25 elephants of at least slightly varying heights and
fairly close together. An element of artillery on a tower or cart is 6
artillery pieces placed on man-made constructs.
The ground is a much more stable platform for shooting than an elephant, but
we don't expect units of archers to be able to shoot all around. Now why is
that, exactly?

Apples and oranges. I would recommend not spending a whole lot of time on
this one.

[joncleaves]

Fret not. Elephants elements that shoot have an arc and will not shoot all
around.

Again, we are not in the rules writing phase, we are in the rules editing
phase. You might apply to Scott for a list rule, but I think he's offered his
views on this one.

[Greg Regets]

Its a valid point .... and no doubt that those poor underpowered elephants needed some help .... hey, we could give them the Swiss rule too, ~laughs~
 
Greg

-----Original Message-----From: Brown,Tim [mailto:Tim.Brown@trenwick.com]Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 9:03 AMTo: 'WarriorRules@egroups.com'Subject: RE: [WarriorRules] Of Towered Elephants and Mobile Towers
>>>OK?  So let me get this straight, elephant pikes, javelins and whatever else>>>that may be readily available, may be jabbed, thrust and otherwise poked in>>>any direction from an elephant tower so long as it is not tossed, lobbed or>>>in any way propelled in any of those same directions except forward?  What>>>if I find a picture that shows shooters daring to aim either to the left or>>>the right of their mounts?  Does it have to be in English?
You have to admit when he puts it that way not allowing shooting all around doesn't make much sense! Perhaps a recount on this idea?
 
Tim Brown
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[Tim Brown]

Greg whimpered:
 
"...and no doubt that those poor underpowered elephants needed some help .... hey, we could give them the Swiss rule too"
 
I'll simply have to keep in mind your irrational fear of elephants, Greg. Obviously a tactic I can use against you in the future - Bwaaaahhahaha !!    
 
 
Tim

[Greg Regets]

I still can't figure out if I should be painting them tan or grey .... and now this shooting thingee .... what is a lowly gamer to do .... guess you can tell I'm just now doing my first elephantine army!
 
G

-----Original Message-----From: Brown,Tim [mailto:Tim.Brown@trenwick.com]Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 2:31 PMTo: 'WarriorRules@egroups.com'Subject: RE: [WarriorRules] Of Towered Elephants and Mobile Towers
Greg whimpered:
 
"...and no doubt that those poor underpowered elephants needed some help .... hey, we could give them the Swiss rule too"
 
I'll simply have to keep in mind your irrational fear of elephants, Greg. Obviously a tactic I can use against you in the future - Bwaaaahhahaha !!    
 
 
TimTo unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:WarriorRules-unsubscribe@egroups.com

Then who exactly are those 25 sets of pikes and javelins poking all around
at? Not at each other I presume.

Kevin

-----Original Message-----
From: JonCleaves@... [SMTP:JonCleaves@...]
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 3:40 PM
To: WarriorRules@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Of Towered Elephants and Mobile
Towers

Let's keep all this in perspective.

An elephant element is 25 elephants of at least slightly varying
heights and
fairly close together. An element of artillery on a tower or cart
is 6
artillery pieces placed on man-made constructs.
The ground is a much more stable platform for shooting than an
elephant, but
we don't expect units of archers to be able to shoot all around.
Now why is
that, exactly?

Apples and oranges. I would recommend not spending a whole lot of
time on
this one.

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