Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

In the discussion about Indians, someone mentioned lack of variety among
Essex figures as a problem. It is, but it also is nice in another way.

I've been accumulating bags of Old Glory recently. They are cheaper than
Essex (but bigger than the older Essex lines) and paint up fine (by my
standards). But in some cases the variety of figures is a problem.

Oscan cavalry, for instance, come in bags of 16 figures and horses. The bag I
got has 6 shielded figures and 10 unshielded figures. We all know how great
unshielded MC JLS is. Granted, MC JLS,Sh isn't much better.

For other ancients games, the lack of shields doesn't really matter because
they don't matter in the game statistics for the cavalry. But for Warrior,
having only 6 shielded figures per bag makes these cavalry a good deal more
expensive.

John Meunier


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There used to be a balding guy who ran some army in
7th with 9 and 12 element units of MC JLS, B, Sh.
Can't remember the army or the guys name, but he
kicked alot of butt with that army. the cheepness of
the units made his army very large. he would stroll
up and shoot two or three units from skirmish; the
result was a melting of enemy mounted and light
troops.

boyd

--- scribblerjohn@... wrote:
> In the discussion about Indians, someone mentioned
> lack of variety among
> Essex figures as a problem. It is, but it also is
> nice in another way.
>
> I've been accumulating bags of Old Glory recently.
> They are cheaper than
> Essex (but bigger than the older Essex lines) and
> paint up fine (by my
> standards). But in some cases the variety of figures
> is a problem.
>
> Oscan cavalry, for instance, come in bags of 16
> figures and horses. The bag I
> got has 6 shielded figures and 10 unshielded
> figures. We all know how great
> unshielded MC JLS is. Granted, MC JLS,Sh isn't much
> better.
>
> For other ancients games, the lack of shields
> doesn't really matter because
> they don't matter in the game statistics for the
> cavalry. But for Warrior,
> having only 6 shielded figures per bag makes these
> cavalry a good deal more
> expensive.
>
> John Meunier
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>


=====
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[scott holder]

There used to be a balding guy who ran some army in
7th with 9 and 12 element units of MC JLS, B, Sh.
Can't remember the army or the guys name, but he
kicked alot of butt with that army. the cheepness of
the units made his army very large. he would stroll
up and shoot two or three units from skirmish; the
result was a melting of enemy mounted and light
troops.

>The success of this most likely depends on the scale played. The first
elephant army this guy meets in 25mm, he's dead. First army in either
scale that can shoot back effectively (LIR, Aztecs, various south Indian
elephant trash lists, Yuan), he's dead. This sounds more like a 15mm
ploy than anything else. Even then, an army like Hsiun Nu or Skythians,
if played well (not something I'm known for) can usually set up charges
on the MC, forcing it to run away and possibly catching it should the
die rolls go the "right" way.

>Another ploy along these lines is to literally line up many units
against these MC monsters, forcing it to split fire while taking the
equivalent amount from many sources. Look at the factors. Shieldless
MC (MEAT!!!!!!!) for shooting starts at a 6. Assume it's down 2 for
skirmish and is in two ranks (so we need to hit 72 to get 2 CPF), that
means you still only need 24 figs shooting, not unreasonable given the
frontage of the MC (and again, assuming you have an army that shoots
well).

>Like most gimmicky tactics (of which I am known for), they tend to work
once or perhaps once throughout a tournament. Then everybody figures
out how to beat it or the one-dimensionalness of the army runs into
something it just don't match up well against.

>But perhaps players with more "success" than me would care to comment.

Scott
List Ho

[Ewan McNay]

Wanax Andron wrote:
>
> There used to be a balding guy who ran some army in
> 7th with 9 and 12 element units of MC JLS, B, Sh.
> Can't remember the army or the guys name, but he
> kicked alot of butt with that army. the cheepness of
> the units made his army very large. he would stroll
> up and shoot two or three units from skirmish; the
> result was a melting of enemy mounted and light
> troops.

Chris Damour (having taken the idea from, I believe, Derek Downs)
occasionally ran (especially in theme/period) Ottoman turks with large
units of IrrD MC B. I believe that the front rank also had a lance and
shield, back when only one rank of lance counted.

I actually don't think it's a great idea - kinda a Midianite but without
the *overwhelming* firepower, and a little more ftf power which does not
make up for that loss. But against the right opponent, sure .

[Ewan McNay]

"Holder, Scott " wrote:
> >But perhaps players with more "success" than me would care to comment.

Would that be "anyone who sometimes wins his games"? ....

OK, so I may exaggerate. Slightly .

> >The success of this most likely depends on the scale played. The first
> elephant army this guy meets in 25mm, he's dead. First army in either
> scale that can shoot back effectively (LIR, Aztecs, various south Indian
> elephant trash lists, Yuan), he's dead. This sounds more like a 15mm
> ploy than anything else. Even then, an army like Hsiun Nu or Skythians,
> if played well (not something I'm known for) can usually set up charges
> on the MC, forcing it to run away and possibly catching it should the
> die rolls go the "right" way.

Right. A close foot army is going to march forwards and ignore the
bowfire. A loose foot army is going to march forward, going into
skirmish where possible (and it usually will be, as the cav will almost
always be able to move within their JLS range), and ignore the bowfire.
A LC army may have trouble, if the terrain is close especially - this
would seem to be the ideal target. A knight army is just going to move
to close, charge when shot, and kill the MC everytime they're caught -
and an IrrD army doesn't take many routing friends to suddenly go home.
As Scott mentioned, any elephant army - well, the elephants won't take
the bowfire, they'll just move up slightly behind their foot, make you
disordered, charge: now you're a disordered rallying MC block 5" away
from impetuous LMI, or Khmer LHI, or whatever. Oops. And so on...

To be fair, the MC *are* cheap - 106 points for a 9-element unit. There
can be a lot of other stuff in the army as well :)

[joncleaves]

yes, yes, another ewan takes a unit/army suggestion and demonstrates clearly
how they totally suck... we've heard it all before... :)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[scott holder]

Would that be "anyone who sometimes wins his games"? ....
OK, so I may exaggerate. Slightly .

Hmph. I'll have you know that I won (and not "I won 2-1" but "I won
5-1") 50% of my Warrior games at Cold Wars:) Coulda been a contenda
in round 3 of teams but ya live by the die, die by the die, or something
along those lines. Of course I was using the slimey Ancient Spanish
list, exact list as used by Mssrs Damour and McNay several years
back:) Can I help it I ran into an equally cheesey list, LIR:)
My slime lost to Jon's slime and a good time was had by all mainly
because me and Darrell whacked on the Later Syracusan with all those
4-horse LCh in round 2--everything after that woulda been gravy. None
of the tactics or list methodologies were *mine* but hey, imitation is
the sincerest form of flattery. I even beat Rob Turnball last year at
Nashcon, oops, running slimball Khmer at the time against Han Chinese
and Rob graciously pinned me against my side of the table and put
targets in reach. And.....That's A Good Thing. Probably never happen
again vs Rob.

And as Chris alluded to earlier, the look on an opponents faces when
BOTH flank marches showed up on Bound 3, 2 scythe chariots rolling in on
each flanks, was priceless. And didn't work too terribly badly either.
Galatians weren't *too* bad at 1200 points at Cold Wars. Certainly
worth trying again.

Now put a "hard" army in front of me to run, like the Yuan, and I pretty
much suck hind tit. That's why I write lists:):)

One thing that was really nice to see at Cold Wars were the "different"
armies in the 25mm Mini finals, Sean Scott running Swiss (I also allowed
him to use the FW list rules in the full list) vs Rob Turnball running L
Carthaginians. Geez, no wonder my Galatians were snoozing Sunday
morning:):)


Scott
List Ho

[Chris Bump]

Right. A close foot army is going to march forwards and ignore the
bowfire. A loose foot army is going to march forward, going into
skirmish where possible (and it usually will be, as the cav will almost
always be able to move within their JLS range), and ignore the bowfire.
A LC army may have trouble, if the terrain is close especially - this
would seem to be the ideal target. A knight army is just going to move
to close, charge when shot, and kill the MC everytime they're caught -
and an IrrD army doesn't take many routing friends to suddenly go home.
As Scott mentioned, any elephant army - well, the elephants won't take
the bowfire, they'll just move up slightly behind their foot, make you
disordered, charge: now you're a disordered rallying MC block 5" away
from impetuous LMI, or Khmer LHI, or whatever. Oops. And so on...

To be fair, the MC *are* cheap - 106 points for a 9-element unit. There
can be a lot of other stuff in the army as well :)

>Hmmm says I. A LC army can just as easily go into 3 ranks and push units
together to mass fires on these guys. Terrain will not affect the LC any more
or less than the MC so terrain is not really an issue. 3 ranks of LC are
shooting 4@4 while same 3 ranks of MC are shooting 6@2 Dead even, and the LC
cost less in that match up. An even roll causes a recall and the D's are far
less likely to waiver in order to stick around than the LC may be.

Loose order foot going into skirmish are WAAAAY susecptible to being charged by
the MC. Even if the MC are only B armed, the loose foot have to run and are
caught at least 33% of the time.

In the case of elephants, the disorder is cessation cured and so comes off that
same turn anyhow if the MC ends recall or evade more than 120 paces from said
paciderms. Since Elephants can be seen over foot, they can be shot at over the
foot unless of course the foot is a shooter, but if they are they are probably
either shieldless or must be within 40 paces of the MC. You can see where I am
going... I in no way want to run such a MC heavy army, but have grown to have a
great deal of respect for the large mounted missle platform. I think the best
weapon against such MC or even HC platforms are the Polybian testudoing Triarii
with LTS. But of course they have their weaknesses too!
Chris

Like I said, this guy clean everyone's clock at Seige
of Augusta back in...err.umm...whatever the second
year of thetournament was. It was also in 25mm. He
was a fairly well known gamer in the Atlanta area, but
not someone I know. The more I think of it he was
playing some turkish army.

I don't dissagree that it is a wild tactic, but then
sadly I didn't invent it :)

boyd

--- "Holder, Scott <FHWA>" <Scott.Holder@...>
wrote:
> There used to be a balding guy who ran some army in
> 7th with 9 and 12 element units of MC JLS, B, Sh.
> Can't remember the army or the guys name, but he
> kicked alot of butt with that army. the cheepness
> of
> the units made his army very large. he would stroll
> up and shoot two or three units from skirmish; the
> result was a melting of enemy mounted and light
> troops.
>
> >The success of this most likely depends on the
> scale played. The first
> elephant army this guy meets in 25mm, he's dead.
> First army in either
> scale that can shoot back effectively (LIR, Aztecs,
> various south Indian
> elephant trash lists, Yuan), he's dead. This sounds
> more like a 15mm
> ploy than anything else. Even then, an army like
> Hsiun Nu or Skythians,
> if played well (not something I'm known for) can
> usually set up charges
> on the MC, forcing it to run away and possibly
> catching it should the
> die rolls go the "right" way.
>
> >Another ploy along these lines is to literally line
> up many units
> against these MC monsters, forcing it to split fire
> while taking the
> equivalent amount from many sources. Look at the
> factors. Shieldless
> MC (MEAT!!!!!!!) for shooting starts at a 6. Assume
> it's down 2 for
> skirmish and is in two ranks (so we need to hit 72
> to get 2 CPF), that
> means you still only need 24 figs shooting, not
> unreasonable given the
> frontage of the MC (and again, assuming you have an
> army that shoots
> well).
>
> >Like most gimmicky tactics (of which I am known
> for), they tend to work
> once or perhaps once throughout a tournament. Then
> everybody figures
> out how to beat it or the one-dimensionalness of the
> army runs into
> something it just don't match up well against.
>
> >But perhaps players with more "success" than me
> would care to comment.
>
> Scott
> List Ho
>
>
>
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>
>
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>
>


=====
Wake up and smell the Assyrians

__________________________________________________
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I think the best weapon
> against such MC or even HC platforms are the
> Polybian testudoing Triarii with LTS. But of course
> they have their weaknesses too!
> Chris


With the new Orb rules, I plan on holding flanks with
Frankish foot in ord. I wonder, can you shoot from
orb with B? Let's see, a 6 element unit of MI
B/JLS/sh in orb...I'll look that rule up. If I can,
then I could make a mounted opponant's flank look like
Ney's charge at waterloo. ;^D

boyd



=====
Wake up and smell the Assyrians

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[Kelly Wilkinson]

Boyd,
I think you are refering to Edge... I can't think
of his last name... He's Jamie Gentry's buddy and he
would know his last name.

kelly

--- Wanax Andron <vercengetorix@...> wrote:
> There used to be a balding guy who ran some army in
> 7th with 9 and 12 element units of MC JLS, B, Sh.
> Can't remember the army or the guys name, but he
> kicked alot of butt with that army. the cheepness
> of
> the units made his army very large. he would stroll
> up and shoot two or three units from skirmish; the
> result was a melting of enemy mounted and light
> troops.
>
> boyd
>
> --- scribblerjohn@... wrote:
> > In the discussion about Indians, someone mentioned
> > lack of variety among
> > Essex figures as a problem. It is, but it also is
> > nice in another way.
> >
> > I've been accumulating bags of Old Glory recently.
> > They are cheaper than
> > Essex (but bigger than the older Essex lines) and
> > paint up fine (by my
> > standards). But in some cases the variety of
> figures
> > is a problem.
> >
> > Oscan cavalry, for instance, come in bags of 16
> > figures and horses. The bag I
> > got has 6 shielded figures and 10 unshielded
> > figures. We all know how great
> > unshielded MC JLS is. Granted, MC JLS,Sh isn't
> much
> > better.
> >
> > For other ancients games, the lack of shields
> > doesn't really matter because
> > they don't matter in the game statistics for the
> > cavalry. But for Warrior,
> > having only 6 shielded figures per bag makes these
> > cavalry a good deal more
> > expensive.
> >
> > John Meunier
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > removed]
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> Wake up and smell the Assyrians
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
> http://health.yahoo.com
>


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