Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

hi,

all this recent discussion of elephants has turned my slow moving
brain back to something that has troubled me for a long time. Why
does having a pike (or LTS/2hct) on an elephant or chariot make such
an incredible difference (-1 in every round for just about everybody,
including foot pikemen)Surely from the back of an elephant a pike
would let you reach a guy on the ground but how does it hinder the
ability of the opponent to attack you? Its hard to imagine the
traditional hedge of spearpoints keeping the enemy at bay from a unit
of elephants or chariots. Why every round as well? If people can
eventually work their way inside several ranks of closely formed
infantry spears surely it would be even easier against an elephant
borne pike. I understand that 2hct acts slightly differently (cutting
off enemy spear heads and the like) but still find it hard to see how
some guy precariously positioned on the back of a fast moving chariot
with a dagger-axe or something similiar is going to seriouly hinder
an enemies ability to harm him (although its saved my chariots
several time when i'm fielding Chin Chinese). Whats other peoples
thinking on this?


martin

[Frank Gilson]

Martin, someone more familiar with the basis of the combat charts is
going to have to answer (Jon...) or with the troop armaments and
their effects (Scott...)...but I can certainly "make up" a plausible
reason.

Elephants and Chariots are frightening things (thus the unease they
cause). When there are also guys in/on them with long pointy sticks
it gets nasty....kind of like trying to attack 'up' a wall atop which
are spearmen...much worse than if they just had swords or clubs. You
can also use a long spear from an elevated position to "sweep"
against enemy troops...knocking men down.

Frank

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "martin williams"
<martymagnificent@y...> wrote:
> hi,
>
> all this recent discussion of elephants has turned my slow moving
> brain back to something that has troubled me for a long time. Why
> does having a pike (or LTS/2hct) on an elephant or chariot make
such
> an incredible difference (-1 in every round for just about
everybody,
> including foot pikemen)Surely from the back of an elephant a pike
> would let you reach a guy on the ground but how does it hinder the
> ability of the opponent to attack you? Its hard to imagine the
> traditional hedge of spearpoints keeping the enemy at bay from a
unit
> of elephants or chariots. Why every round as well? If people can
> eventually work their way inside several ranks of closely formed
> infantry spears surely it would be even easier against an elephant
> borne pike. I understand that 2hct acts slightly differently
(cutting
> off enemy spear heads and the like) but still find it hard to see
how
> some guy precariously positioned on the back of a fast moving
chariot
> with a dagger-axe or something similiar is going to seriouly hinder
> an enemies ability to harm him (although its saved my chariots
> several time when i'm fielding Chin Chinese). Whats other peoples
> thinking on this?
>
>
> martin

[Eric Turner]

Martin

It is very simple. How do you kill an el in combat? The best way is to
cut the tendons on the back of his leg. El falls over. The job of the
guys on an el is to keep enemy troops from getting around the back of
an el. The el is very very good at taking care of the guys in front of
him. Why do you think all those Indian troops carry a 2HCW?

Eric

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "martin williams"
<martymagnificent@y...> wrote:
> hi,
>
> all this recent discussion of elephants has turned my slow moving
> brain back to something that has troubled me for a long time. Why
> does having a pike (or LTS/2hct) on an elephant or chariot make such
> an incredible difference (-1 in every round for just about everybody,
> including foot pikemen)Surely from the back of an elephant a pike
> would let you reach a guy on the ground but how does it hinder the
> ability of the opponent to attack you? Its hard to imagine the
> traditional hedge of spearpoints keeping the enemy at bay from a unit
> of elephants or chariots. Why every round as well? If people can
> eventually work their way inside several ranks of closely formed
> infantry spears surely it would be even easier against an elephant
> borne pike. I understand that 2hct acts slightly differently (cutting
> off enemy spear heads and the like) but still find it hard to see how
> some guy precariously positioned on the back of a fast moving chariot
> with a dagger-axe or something similiar is going to seriouly hinder
> an enemies ability to harm him (although its saved my chariots
> several time when i'm fielding Chin Chinese). Whats other peoples
> thinking on this?
>
>
> martin

[Kelly Wilkinson]

Frank,

That would be something to see indeed! I find it difficult to imagine one
guy in a chariot with a 6 foot long dagger axe making sweeping movements big
enough to knock close order pikemen or longspearmen in ranks of 4 to 16 down. .
. perhaps this is just an old game concept that needs looking into. Although I
love my elephants and I started out with Seleucids who get elephant crew usually
armed with pike, I find it hard to imagine a model which represents around 10 to
25 or so elephants reducing a single or double element frontage of 800 men in
fighting ability just because it has 10 to 25 guys with a pike each. Does this
seem silly to you?

kelly
Frank Gilson <franktrevorgilson@...> wrote:
Martin, someone more familiar with the basis of the combat charts is
going to have to answer (Jon...) or with the troop armaments
their effects (Scott...)...but I can certainly "make up" a plausible
reason.

Elephants and Chariots are frightening things (thus the unease they
cause). When there are also guys in/on them with long pointy sticks
it gets nasty....kind of like trying to attack 'up' a wall atop which
are spearmen...much worse than if they just had swords or clubs. You
can also use a long spear from an elevated position to "sweep"
against enemy troops...knocking men down.

Frank

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "martin williams"
<martymagnificent@y...> wrote:
> hi,
>
> all this recent discussion of elephants has turned my slow moving
> brain back to something that has troubled me for a long time. Why
> does having a pike (or LTS/2hct) on an elephant or chariot make
such
> an incredible difference (-1 in every round for just about
everybody,
> including foot pikemen)Surely from the back of an elephant a pike
> would let you reach a guy on the ground but how does it hinder the
> ability of the opponent to attack you? Its hard to imagine the
> traditional hedge of spearpoints keeping the enemy at bay from a
unit
> of elephants or chariots. Why every round as well? If people can
> eventually work their way inside several ranks of closely formed
> infantry spears surely it would be even easier against an elephant
> borne pike. I understand that 2hct acts slightly differently
(cutting
> off enemy spear heads and the like) but still find it hard to see
how
> some guy precariously positioned on the back of a fast moving
chariot
> with a dagger-axe or something similiar is going to seriouly hinder
> an enemies ability to harm him (although its saved my chariots
> several time when i'm fielding Chin Chinese). Whats other peoples
> thinking on this?
>
>
> martin



---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarriorRules/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
WarriorRules-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Kelly Wilkinson]

Eric,

You are missing the point that Martin was trying to make. He is wondering
whether a particular carry over from 7th ed. where 2hct/Lts/P armed crew should
give a minus to massed bodies of troops.

kelly

wdknee88 <eturner@...> wrote:
Martin

It is very simple. How do you kill an el in combat? The best way is to
cut the tendons on the back of his leg. El falls over. The job of the
guys on an el is to keep enemy troops from getting around the back of
an el. The el is very very good at taking care of the guys in front of
him. Why do you think all those Indian troops carry a 2HCW?

Eric

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "martin williams"
<martymagnificent@y...> wrote:
> hi,
>
> all this recent discussion of elephants has turned my slow moving
> brain back to something that has troubled me for a long time. Why
> does having a pike (or LTS/2hct) on an elephant or chariot make such
> an incredible difference (-1 in every round for just about everybody,
> including foot pikemen)Surely from the back of an elephant a pike
> would let you reach a guy on the ground but how does it hinder the
> ability of the opponent to attack you? Its hard to imagine the
> traditional hedge of spearpoints keeping the enemy at bay from a unit
> of elephants or chariots. Why every round as well? If people can
> eventually work their way inside several ranks of closely formed
> infantry spears surely it would be even easier against an elephant
> borne pike. I understand that 2hct acts slightly differently (cutting
> off enemy spear heads and the like) but still find it hard to see how
> some guy precariously positioned on the back of a fast moving chariot
> with a dagger-axe or something similiar is going to seriouly hinder
> an enemies ability to harm him (although its saved my chariots
> several time when i'm fielding Chin Chinese). Whats other peoples
> thinking on this?
>
>
> martin



---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarriorRules/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
WarriorRules-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]