Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

Everyone,

I tried to trim old comments and leave what was pertinent
or paraphrase from the original post. This was originally two letters,
but it seemed fitting to combine them as they deal with the same
issues. I also tried to note the commentator.

Sean

*********************Ewan's Comments**************************
Ewan
>Did I say otherwise? I suspect what you are referring to is that I said
>somethying like 'even Sean can't get them right' - which referred just to
>getting an army out of the list that I would want to use, not to your
>(admirable, with this army) success rate. Sorry if it came across
>otherwise.

Sean
Did not mean to come off defensive. Just meant army choice can
make a difference in win/loss ratio, but if you like an army (and it
fits your style) you will be better off than playing a 'top rate'
army that doesn't fit your style.

Also, if the army and player matches style, it can make a good army a
great army, best example is Dave Stiers, won Nationals 2x with Sicilian Ho..
well others can't seem to take it to that next level with the
list (where have the Sicilians all gone... I guess 1.5 ranks made the old
wedging not as important). Another example is Eric with the Yuan (Yawn)
Chinese.
Both armies I wouldn't play as they take too much setup time and I am not
patient enough for them. The same can be said of the 1st rate Selucids and LIR
(I assume they are still considered such). I would be too impatient to let
them
do their work (though I did play Selucids once, (borrowing figures from Derek
Downs) and had a good time. Will probably never play them again).

Summary, as Phil (for 7th), many on the list, etc. have said, get to know and
play an army you love and you will get more victories than playing a '1st
rate'
army that you don't enjoy.

Ewan
>The reduced ease of impetuosity is also a factor here. That added to
>the lack of shields is a rout; avoidable by superior generalship, but not
>always.
>
>I would add lack of decent light troops to the 'all lists' section. Even
>Venice doesn't have good regular lights.

Sean
Ease of impetuosity is the reason why you have to go en mass and early
before the lines are broken and 240 paces in the flanks becomes an
issue. The lights I am not convinced about, but hey, I play Communal which
gets
no more than 6 E light infantry (in old lists). LC generally can not hold for
long against infantry (LMI,MI,HI,LHI). The infantry charges or shoots, the LC
leaves. The density of shooting won't really effect the foot. LC can be pushed
aside (though never/rarely caught and killed).

Ewan
>I agree, I just don't think that a decent opponent is going to let you hit
>anything that you can beat. Wildly generalising, of course, and depending
>on their force - a Roman for instance willl have little choice if heavy on
>close foot (a knight's idea of a good time!)
>

Sean
Define beat. I never said that you hit what you can beat, you hit what
is avaliable (except elephants). Knights are a great troop type (though
expensive) because there is little that can beat them outright, they can move
to
hit stuff quickly, and have high points density due to their strength. My view
is different than Stiers (and maybe yours) in that I do not do a surgical
strike
late in the game, I prefer an early hit, assume someplace a weak troop type
will
be exposed, a morale test will be failed, or a line cracked. At Pointcon, HKs
effectively hit Romans (x2) and Texicalin. Why? A bit of luck and 8 units of
knights hitting one turn (of course Dogs of War helped as there were 40% D's,
so
morale was more likely blown) is hard for most armies to sustain. Other
knights
can be a problem, but I usually have 2+ more units, and most other knight
lists
has some sort of required crunchy center. The most difficult armies to beat,
besides elephants, is LC with heavy horse (Arabs) since there is nothing
crunchy
that can't move (skrimish) away. BTW, I define an elephant army as 6 or more,
too many to avoid and have to expect to fight during the game. But hey, most
elephant armies have a crunchy center that can cause morale tests.

Ewan
>This is a big plus for the easier dismounting of Warior, agreed. BUT..
>those units charging are still taking multi fatigues each time, and
>getting tired real fast, or you're not going anywhere. And all of your
>support troops are very, very vulnerable without K support, so you can
>easily lose the game without getting any K into combat.

Sean
First, I developed my dismounting techniques under 7th. I find
it a very effective tactic and makes the knights more valuable , and gives
regulars a reason for living. At the time I developed technique,
all but Burgundian, German, and Tuetonic Knights did not wedge, so 4
guys with THCW was better than 3 with lance. As the rules have evolved
(oh for the days when dismounts reordered at the end of the same approach
moves)
the tactics I used to survive became additions to a more powerful arsenal. 1.5
ranks. Order at the end of same turn instead of 2 turns. The rule changes also
prompted dropping the infantry (I think I might have gone to far having none
though) and replacing with dismounted K. Also, few will not countercharge so
you
only move 1". Maybe I should point out, you dismount 80-120+ paces away from
infantry in your turn (just out of chrage reach), order at the end, charge the
next turn. If they skrimish or turn arround, all the better for the mounted
support to run down. Also, a game (whether I win or loose) is not satistying
if
all knights have not charged, which means I can expect an average of 8 fatigue
on each unit.

As knights is all you have, K support goes without saying. The
fatigue issue is the reason you have to hit early. If you have 'cheap'
and effective road bumps like the English, Spanish, and Sicilians
you can wait, tire out the opponent. If you don't, you have to go in
(French or Tuets would be a more effective army , but I have Condotta
figures painted and don't make lists that much different that would
warrent painting a new army. Also, more required crunchy stuff than
Condotta).

Ewan
>Yes. LMI horde is something that you should happily roll over. Even the
>LC CB now have a roll in pinning the LMI then countering out of charge
>reach to let the knights go in against stationary foot (doable even
>without LC, but harder)

Sean
This army allows you to loose with style. What do I
mean? Even if you loose (unless you made a foolish mistake) you will
usually kill at least 200+ points. More probably, 400+ points. The loss
isn't necessaily an end to the tournament for you. I come in second
or third in tournaments more times than I can count by beating armies
I can effectively fight and making those that kill me bleed.

I am more disappointed with losing a game that I 'should' have one
than elated with a game I 'should' have lost. Th efirst is usually
by a stupid mistake, the second by luck.

Final note to Ewans comments. This army has real problems when facing
good players with 1st rate armies (i.e. NICT). It is either too one
dimensional (all knights) or the cost of troops outweigh their worth
(most infantry are LHI or HI). This army is best played in Mini opens,
general opens, and other 'friendly' tournaments where players are
either learning a '1st rate army' and are prone to mistakes or trying
a 'lesser' army to play something different.



**********Jon's Comments**********************

Referring to Italian Condotta being a 'better' 1200 points army.

Jon
Given the caveat that Sean's comments on this list are all about its
performance
in open tourneys, this is a great note. There are definitely lists that
'work
better' at 1200 vice 1600 (or 2000) and his summary of why is excellent.
Particularly:



Referring to what is missing from army.

Jon
I always look at these 'army dissection' emails with a jaundiced eye given
that
the player's personal fighting style and assumptions about the venue the army
is
fighting in are usually bigger drivers than the 'definitive' things he says
about the army. I also think winning is far far more about the generalship of
the player than the lead. I would be more concerned about a game with a top
player using Sea Peoples than a lesser one with a supposedly 'killer' army.
However, Sean's email is so much better than the usual, I thought I'd
throw
$0.02 in.

Sean
Noone is going to blame loses on their own generalship, but on the army, etc.
Also, you are right, at higher amounts I no longer get the stuff that I want.
Please note my above comments.


Refering to SHK w/o Shiled against SHK w/ Sh.

Jon
That -1 does look small, but consider this - on even dice he does more and one
and you recoil. He expands. Next bound he is 6 figs with the plus one
for
following up to your three and a rout is extremely likely. For sure a
waver.
More matchups are lost on bound two because the player downplays in his
mind a
slight disadvantage in bound one. Sean is right on to point this out. It
also
plays into who you expect your SHK to be fighting.

Sean
No arguement here.

Referring to Tactics.

Jon
My biggest objection to these type mails is that they often lead to major
kibbutzing (well, you wouldn't be able to do that to me because I'd do x -
oh
yeagh, well, I'd do y...etc.)
This is a good example. With a missile army I'd be doing exactly what he
describes and forcing the hurried up charges. I'd also *love* to see
someon'e
plan to be charging my screen with any K - Reg C or otherwise, but that
isn't
the point. Hes' right about what he should be trying to do - what is
being
left out is definitive answer to each of the counters likely armies will
take.
The other guy is generally not sitting there letting this all happen.
There
should be some give and take in these descriptions so the new player can
learn
the likely countermeasures and not just rotely charge off against LC with
K and
expect good stuff to happen.

Sean
I leave the defensive counter out somewhat on purpose. I tried to point out
how
I go about attacking an opponent and don't wory about what the opponent is
going to do (is what keeps me from taking my playing to the next level). I try
to close rapidly to keep the opponent from making adjustments, forcing them
to adjust to my plan and not having to adjust to thiers (note your last
comment).
Once you worry about what your opponent is going to do, you have lost, or at
least put yourself in for a long game (unlikely to finish in 4 hours).
Further, to
give counter measures of 'special' situations that develope on the field does
get into too much kibitzing on list. You can never block out all the wierd
angles
that two units (espcially when considering single element frontages) can get
into
(that's what Scott is for).

Refering to dismounting against bow hordes

Jon
It can be when they are in 2E units. An CB and LB are not -2. Watch that.

In the original post I seperate LB and XB hordes from B hordes. The real
answer is charge, charge, charge when facing these.


Referring to SHI with L armed dudes in the vacinity ready to ride you down.

Jon
Now *that's* good stuff.

Sean
No Comment

Refering to Chrage, Charge, Charge against LMI.

Jon
Two hopes and a try. I'll be continuing my LMI charging mounted training at
Table Top Games Monday night. lol

Sean
Without hopes and trying to do something to your opponent, you might
as well forfiet the game. You are right (in another thread) about the details
of countering the attack. But the counter to that is stay outside 240. Your
counter, make sure there is always something in 120 (even LC or LI) so you
can get your long line of Ir foot to charge imp. My counter... could go on
forever.

Referring to SHI as uber infantry.

Jon
I agree with Sean that K are not dismounting enough. But you have to play it
out and know who you can beat - you're tough, but you're only 8 figs....

Sean
It takes time and practice to get a feeling for when to dismount and how to do
it effectively. Well worth it, but took me a long time (and many loses) to get
it down (at least somewhat) correctly. There are times when speed is necessary
and there is nothing that can replace a good horse and lance.


Referring to Elephants

Jon
Hit what Sean? I think the new guys would benefit from detail here.

(from below)
I think that this mail does not go into enough on how IC is going to beat an
elephant army in an open. I think that this is the main reason we see
other
medieval armies in open tourneys.

Sean
IC has real problems with elephants. 2-4 can be screened off (see definition
to
elephant army above), more is very difficult.
What knights have over elephants is mobility. They march on 4 instead of 2 or
3,
move and charge 160 instead of 120, the depth/width of 2E of K is half that of
2E of elephants allowing tighter turns, and if the elephants have escorts,
always move 2nd when mounted. This makes K (in the open) much more maneverable
than elephants and you have to use that to get a shot on the elephant support
troops. If the K is regular, you are even more manuverable. I think the
biggest
mistake many elephent players do (from my perspective) is take escorts, as
they
no longer have the 'option' of moving after an opponents cav. I think the
biggest mistake of K players (including myslef) is taking terrain which
hinders
your own movement. Especially woods, water, or hills with steep edges.
Elephants
is the only time I might use brush, but then the crunchy stuff you are looking
for has someplace to hide and what elephant wouldn't charge a disordered
rallying K in the brush.

What to hit? The Burmese (some of the nastiest elephants out there) can
buy 12 elephants but are still required to take a fair amount of foot.
Elephants
take waver tests for routs, and the Burmese are only Ir C I believe. Indians
get
LB/B MI/HI to go after. Most get MC and LI which you can go after. Those that
have screens of LI, charge the screens and convert into the bowmen/spearmen
behind. I did not say it was good or effective to fight elephants, only that
this is what I try to do. I have tried many defensive positions and army
makeups, and found that in the end, the elephants with support blow me away
with
little loses to themselves. At least by being agressive you can get points and
maybe cause a lot of morale tests which can win the game.

Warrior is about morale (both personal and army). Causing
a rout when an Elephant player expected a day at the beach is your first
victory. 2 K will kill any LI (~61 points). 3-4 K will kill LMI (~121 points).
Right there near 200 points. Any failed wavers and you could get over 400
points
(3 tourney points). If your oponent blows personal morale, mistakes will
multiply as will your points. When the IC face elephants I will take an 3-_
any
day. It is rare to face more than one elephant army in the early rounds of a
tourney, so with 3 points and 4-5 in the other two games you can be at the top
4
positions with 11-13 points and likely qualify for a playoff spot. The real
issue is whether you can get 4-5 in the other games which are 'easier'. 8-9
Tourney points will (likely) not qualify you and when facing elephants
(or any army which your army is not suited to play) you have to
take a longer view.

Final note on elephants, all have crunchy support except the Dehli
which can be all Elphant, LC, EHC/HC/MC. Much more difficult,
but then look for the EHC usually . Not a great option, but when given
eggs make an omulet.

With the above said I am sure better K players (such as
Dave Stiers) could give a toturial on how to beat an elephant army
without taking much damage. I am sure premier elephant players could
write a tretise on how to counter Dave and the above (which would
be interesting to see what they fear, besides LMI, JLS, Ir).

Also, a quick comment. One list per tourney really limits
what you can do. A choice about what to have has to be made
before the tourney in order to deal with your(k)nightmare.
I choose to be effective at one thing, hope to survive (or get
lucky and not face) my nightmare (elephants and arabs)
instead of watering down my effective edge (knights
and manuveriability).

Original Post
> The longer the game goes on,
> the better chance the opponent has of finding you and killing you. >>

Jon
Very true. Many players don't even know whether their army wants a lot of
bounds or a few...

Original Post
<<Also, I have lost more games by not trying to actively follow through
with my
plan, no matter how bad it gets. Changing direction and the plan mid game
is
the
surest
> recipe for disaster and rout. I have tried other variations of the list,
but
> found that the infantry forced a defensive game and you could be picked
apart
> slowly. None of the infantry hit hard or numerous enough to warrent
buying and
> the XB jsut is not an effetive weapon. HG is nice, but easily avoidable,
o not
> effective. SHK, like the historical Condatta, is the way to go. Not EHK,
Sh,
> but SHK. Why? SHK and SHI are causes of unease for any put elephant,
knights,
SHC,
> or (posibly) chariot. Something I wish I had remembered when that out
flanked
> Roman general charged my general (tired, disordered, rallying)
impetously to
> rout me. Can also matter with Ir infantry charging youe
> dismounted dudes.>>

Jon
Great paragraph. Should be required reading...

Sean
Other comments, both of which are correct are below:

Others
> ***For folks not familiar with this effect of unease regarding SHI and SHK,
I
might add
that this unease only goes to those charging such units. Otherwise this
effect
is not
imposed. Just my
$.03!
Kelly

Actually, it applies to those frontally charging such units.

Greg

Sean
Remeber a knight was born to charge and that there should be flank
protection at all times (easier said than done). The hardest time I have with
flank protection is when I push through the opponents
line. But if that happens, other oppertunities should present themselves.