Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Bill Chriss]

Looking at 6.162 and 6.163. Gharges "count as declared on all legal
targets in or moving ointo the charge path." Charge path is defined
as a zone "as wide as the body and extending out its tactical move."
However, charge reach is only "measured to the point of contact with
the firsat target body," and if a body cannot legally declare a
charge against a target or is prevented from doingf so by some
obstacle such as...an intervening body the taget is not in the body's
charge reach." This implies that charge reach does not extend beyong
the first enemy body met. Also, it appears that charges may only be
declared against visible enemy, but do they "count" as declared
against enemy behind the first enemy body met? Even if the rearmost
body cannot be seen through the "covering body?"

Let me give an example: A unit of two rank deep LI javelin men is
covering a unit of peltasts directly behind it. The LI is not in
skirmish. An enemy cav unit is 1" in front of and facing the LI. It
declares a charge "straight ahead." Presumably, it cannot see through
the LI to the LMI, right? Does the charge count as declared against
the LMI peltasts, even though the LI have no intention of evading? If
so, will this prevent (cancel) the peltasts from charging some other
unit, even though, with the LI standing to receive, there is no
chance they'll be contacted by the Cav?

Maybe I'm dense, but although I have a common sense answer, I can not
see a clear way to resolve these questions merely by reference to the
rules. Can you help me Jon?

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 12/9/2003 11:10:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,
hrisikos@... writes:

> Looking at 6.162 and 6.163. Gharges "count as declared on all legal
> targets in or moving ointo the charge path." Charge path is defined
> as a zone "as wide as the body and extending out its tactical move."
> However, charge reach is only "measured to the point of contact with
> the firsat target body," and if a body cannot legally declare a
> charge against a target or is prevented from doingf so by some
> obstacle such as...an intervening body the taget is not in the body's
> charge reach." This implies that charge reach does not extend beyong
> the first enemy body met. Also, it appears that charges may only be
> declared against visible enemy, but do they "count" as declared
> against enemy behind the first enemy body met? Even if the rearmost
> body cannot be seen through the "covering body?" >>

You have it all right, but you need to read the charge at evaders portion of
6.166. This covers what happens AFTER a target evades. Until a target actually
evades, charge reach does not 'go past' the target. Once everything is figured
out and the charge is under way and the target then chooses to evade, the charge
can make contact with a legal target in the path.

> Let me give an example: A unit of two rank deep LI javelin men is
> covering a unit of peltasts directly behind it. The LI is not in
> skirmish. An enemy cav unit is 1" in front of and facing the LI. It
> declares a charge "straight ahead." Presumably, it cannot see through
> the LI to the LMI, right? Does the charge count as declared against
> the LMI peltasts, even though the LI have no intention of evading?>>

Not until they actually evade, no. But once they do, if the LMI are in the
charge path of the cav, then yes.

<< If so, will this prevent (cancel) the peltasts from charging some other
> unit, even though, with the LI standing to receive, there
> is no chance they'll be contacted by the Cav?>>

No. The peltasts would not be prevented from charging another unit if the LI
stand. Hence the words about charge path not extending past the first body met.

Jon

[John Murphy]

This is a really good question, and one similar to one I asked a bit
back.

So just to be sure I understand how this works -

If the LI don't evade the LMI are free to charge another target
because the Cav charge reach is blocked by the LI.

If the LI evade then the LMI ability to charge depends on the left-
right order of charge move/response resolution - the LMI will either
go before the Cav and get to charge while the LI are still in place,
or the LMI will go after the Cav and be in charge reach of the Cav
after the LI evade cancelling the LMI charge.

Right?

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, JonCleaves@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 12/9/2003 11:10:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,
hrisikos@D... writes:
>
> > Looking at 6.162 and 6.163. Gharges "count as declared on all
legal
> > targets in or moving ointo the charge path." Charge path is
defined
> > as a zone "as wide as the body and extending out its tactical
move."
> > However, charge reach is only "measured to the point of contact
with
> > the firsat target body," and if a body cannot legally declare a
> > charge against a target or is prevented from doingf so by some
> > obstacle such as...an intervening body the taget is not in the
body's
> > charge reach." This implies that charge reach does not extend
beyong
> > the first enemy body met. Also, it appears that charges may only
be
> > declared against visible enemy, but do they "count" as declared
> > against enemy behind the first enemy body met? Even if the
rearmost
> > body cannot be seen through the "covering body?" >>
>
> You have it all right, but you need to read the charge at evaders
portion of 6.166. This covers what happens AFTER a target evades.
Until a target actually evades, charge reach does not 'go past' the
target. Once everything is figured out and the charge is under way
and the target then chooses to evade, the charge can make contact
with a legal target in the path.
>
> > Let me give an example: A unit of two rank deep LI javelin men
is
> > covering a unit of peltasts directly behind it. The LI is not in
> > skirmish. An enemy cav unit is 1" in front of and facing the LI.
It
> > declares a charge "straight ahead." Presumably, it cannot see
through
> > the LI to the LMI, right? Does the charge count as declared
against
> > the LMI peltasts, even though the LI have no intention of
evading?>>
>
> Not until they actually evade, no. But once they do, if the LMI
are in the charge path of the cav, then yes.
>
> << If so, will this prevent (cancel) the peltasts from charging
some other
> > unit, even though, with the LI standing to receive, there
> > is no chance they'll be contacted by the Cav?>>
>
> No. The peltasts would not be prevented from charging another
unit if the LI stand. Hence the words about charge path not
extending past the first body met.
>
> Jon

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 12/10/2003 11:50:17 AM Eastern Standard Time,
jjmurphy@... writes:

> If the LI don't evade the LMI are free to charge another target
> because the Cav charge reach is blocked by the LI.
>
> If the LI evade then the LMI ability to charge depends on the left-
> right order of charge move/response resolution - the LMI will either
> go before the Cav and get to charge while the LI are still in place,
> or the LMI will go after the Cav and be in charge reach of
> the Cav
> after the LI evade cancelling the LMI charge.
>
> Right?>>

Yes.

Please understand that I don't have a diagram of this to look at, so this is a
general answer based on my mental picture of what is going on.

Initial charge paths end at units. You can't make an assumption about an evade
before it happens. Combat direction matters.

Jon

[Tim Grimmett]

Jon--

Interesting. After reading the LTS vs Lance thread I have the following
questions.

1) Lanced armed Unit A is in a command with probe orders. In front of him is a
unit of LI screening a pike unit (everything is lined up--no angles-- Unit A is
40 paces from the LI and 120 paces from the Pike)

Unit a declares a charge on the LI which successfully evades through the Pike.
My question is: Do the probe orders prevent unit A from slamming into the Pike
since his orders prevent him from frontally attacking LTS/Pike armed foot. I
have always thought (and played) Unit A would go in. Does the probe order
restriction make the LTS-Pike unit an illegal charge target?

2) Someone stated that one can charge the front of LTS/Pike-armed foot only if
under attack orders. My read of hold orders is that as long as the target is on
my half of the board and I'm not charging with SHC (close order prohibition) I
can prompt a unit to frontally charge LTS/Pike foot.

Tim


JonCleaves@... wrote:
You have it all right, but you need to read the charge at evaders portion of
6.166. This covers what happens AFTER a target evades. Until a target actually
evades, charge reach does not 'go past' the target. Once everything is figured
out and the charge is under way and the target then chooses to evade, the charge
can make contact with a legal target in the path.




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[joncleaves]

In a message dated 12/11/2003 8:45:11 AM Eastern Standard Time,
grimmetttim@... writes:

> 1) Lanced armed Unit A is in a command with probe orders. In front of him is
a unit of LI screening a pike unit (everything is lined up--no angles-- Unit A
is 40 paces from the LI and 120 paces from the Pike)
>
> Unit a declares a charge on the LI which successfully evades through the Pike.
My question is: Do the probe orders prevent unit A from slamming into the Pike
since his orders prevent him from frontally attacking LTS/Pike armed foot. I
have always thought (and played) Unit A would go in. Does the probe order
restriction make the LTS-Pike unit an illegal charge target?>>


Yes, that would be an illegal charge target. The last sentence of 6.166, quoted
here, would apply in the above case.


"If the only outcome of a given charge against evaders is a potential contact
with an illegal charge target (e.g. an LC unit following an evader is blocked by
a steady MI unit), the charger instead stops 40p from that body. "


> 2) Someone stated that one can charge the front of LTS/Pike-armed foot only if
under attack orders. My read of hold orders is that as long as the target is on
my half of the board and I'm not charging with SHC (close order prohibition) I
can
> prompt a unit to frontally charge LTS/Pike foot.>>

Hold does not restrict any kind of mounted charge on your own side of the table
beyond requiring them to be prompted. The Hold restriction is on close
formation FOOT, so not sure what you are saying about SHC above.

J

[Tim Grimmett]

Got it. Learned something today. Thanks. Tim

JonCleaves@... wrote:In a message dated 12/11/2003 8:45:11 AM Eastern
Standard Time, grimmetttim@... writes:

> 1) Lanced armed Unit A is in a command with probe orders. In front of him is
a unit of LI screening a pike unit (everything is lined up--no angles-- Unit A
is 40 paces from the LI and 120 paces from the Pike)
>
> Unit a declares a charge on the LI which successfully evades through the Pike.
My question is: Do the probe orders prevent unit A from slamming into the Pike
since his orders prevent him from frontally attacking LTS/Pike armed foot. I
have always thought (and played) Unit A would go in. Does the probe order
restriction make the LTS-Pike unit an illegal charge target?>>


Yes, that would be an illegal charge target. The last sentence of 6.166, quoted
here, would apply in the above case.


"If the only outcome of a given charge against evaders is a potential contact
with an illegal charge target (e.g. an LC unit following an evader is blocked by
a steady MI unit), the charger instead stops 40p from that body. "


> 2) Someone stated that one can charge the front of LTS/Pike-armed foot only if
under attack orders. My read of hold orders is that as long as the target is on
my half of the board and I'm not charging with SHC (close order prohibition) I
can
> prompt a unit to frontally charge LTS/Pike foot.>>

Hold does not restrict any kind of mounted charge on your own side of the table
beyond requiring them to be prompted. The Hold restriction is on close
formation FOOT, so not sure what you are saying about SHC above.

J

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