Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 8/22/2004 20:28:27 Central Daylight Time,
mailtomikek@... writes:

Crossbows
HC EHC

A MI XB unit 3 wide was charged by HC against its right element and
EHC against its left. The XB lost over 3x as many than it inflicted
in HTH but less than 3 CPF so did not rout on contact. Thus it
recoiled disordered. It also took a second disorder from losing
2xHTH and 1 CPF, which forced a waver test that it failed, going
shaken. >>
No, sorry. Those two disorders are happening simultaneously and therefore
the body is not already disordered when the second one happens. There is no
waver test.

After recoils and follow-ups, per 6.34, both cavalry were
able to breakthrough because the XB were unbroken but suffered
triple HTH. The EHC on its left rolled short and just passed
through. The HC on the right convert-charged into the front corner
of the enemy CinC who happened to be rushing to the rescue, then
conformed to his front, blocking any retreat by the XB.

As being broken through is another cause of disorder, forcing a
waver test (multiple units breaking through in the same bound were
counted only once here for forcing wavers), the XB wavered and
broke.>>
No again. All of these disorders from combat are happening at the same
time. The body was not already disordered when they all happened at once. The
Cav could break through - sure. But there is no waver here.



Turning to flee, they were blocked by the cavalry that were
broken through and could not find a gap to either side unless moving
sideways and backwards around or bursting through friends, so they
prepared to impetuously try to breakthrough the obstructing enemy
cavalry next bound. >>
Ok, let's say that the XB had been shaken before hand to hand results and so
did take a waver (one) for suffering a disorder from combat while already
disordered. Then, it breaks from failing that waver -NOT from hand to hand,
but now we have the same situation you were asking about. You can't take more
than one waver from second disorder from combat in the same phase, but the
guy with the break-through option HAS TO wait and see the result of that waver
before he chooses to break-through. The waver is still immediate and the
recoil from mounted would have caused it. Obviously, the break-through is not
possible if the XB fails for being disordered and becomes broken and makes a
rout move.


Jon




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Dear Jon,

No matter what you think of, stranger situations innocently arise on
the table. The following events tied together a number of issues
and I would like to confirm I did this correctly. There are 4 units
affected, 2 on either side. The situation was physically fairly
simple, roughly as below except for the angles.

CinC

Crossbows
HC EHC

A MI XB unit 3 wide was charged by HC against its right element and
EHC against its left. The XB lost over 3x as many than it inflicted
in HTH but less than 3 CPF so did not rout on contact. Thus it
recoiled disordered. It also took a second disorder from losing
2xHTH and 1 CPF, which forced a waver test that it failed, going
shaken. After recoils and follow-ups, per 6.34, both cavalry were
able to breakthrough because the XB were unbroken but suffered
triple HTH. The EHC on its left rolled short and just passed
through. The HC on the right convert-charged into the front corner
of the enemy CinC who happened to be rushing to the rescue, then
conformed to his front, blocking any retreat by the XB.

As being broken through is another cause of disorder, forcing a
waver test (multiple units breaking through in the same bound were
counted only once here for forcing wavers), the XB wavered and
broke. Turning to flee, they were blocked by the cavalry that were
broken through and could not find a gap to either side unless moving
sideways and backwards around or bursting through friends, so they
prepared to impetuously try to breakthrough the obstructing enemy
cavalry next bound.

Next bound, the EHC was rallying and turned 180 to face the routers
at its back. The routers were also up against the flank edge of the
HC that had broken through and engaged the CinC. The first combat
by direction was the routers against the EHC. They failed to
breakthrough and the entire XB unit was therefore destroyed. Their
CinC wavered and was shaken. Thanks to this, the CinC was then
routed by the HC, opening a gap -- sadly too late to help the
routing XB.

Q1: Make sense mechanically so far?

Q2: How would the routers have affected the CinC vs. HC fight if
they were attempting to breakthrough? Since this was a converted
charge situation and the participants are effectively quarantined
until their combat is resolved, in this case my understanding is
that the routers on their turn would sit in place, effectively
skipping their attempted breakthrough turn since the converted
charge had not yet been resolved (note they were not in contact with
their friendly CinC unit so would not I think have burst through).
Next turn they continue rout behavior.

If combat direction went the other way, or this were not a converted
charge quarantine situation, would the routers be added into the
melee against the engaged HC? Since they would inflict a handful of
casualties but the HC would inflict none, the routers would have
scored triple and broken through the HC from their left to right,
disordering them, while at the same time if the CinC recoiled or
broke the broken-through HC would I think have followed up rather
than remaining stationary because of the breakthrough.

Sound right?

Thanks for your help,

Mike

Dear Jon,

OK, thanks, should have read the current clarification more
carefully. I think you should highlight in revisions that each body
takes no more than one second disorder waver test no matter how many
second disorders occur during the combined hand-to-hand and combat
results phases, simultaneous or not. As I believe I think I
understand it, you CAN take a one 2d disorder waver in support
shooting and then one more 2d disorder waver in HTH/combat results.

The reason is that 5.51 and the rest of 5.5 hammer home the key
rules concept that sequence matters and that you test as things
happen, even spelling out how to handle multiple simultaneous wavers
in sequence. Since combat results occur after the hand to hand
phase in the SOP, breakthroughs specifically occur after recoils and
followups, and that troops are disordered if broken through, it
seemed to me that the breakthrough had to occur before the disorder
and waver, and that overall I had 3 disordering events occurring
independently, one in "hand-to-hand combat" and two in the flow
of "combat results". It didn't occur to me that they would be
considered simultaneous.

Incidentally, the sequence of play in 3.2 refers to both "Hand to
Hand Combat Phase" including shooting, resolution and results,
and "Hand-to-hand combat" itself, which is potentially a little
confusing.

Best regards,

Mike

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 8/23/2004 00:04:53 Central Daylight Time,
mailtomikek@... writes:

As I believe I think I
understand it, you CAN take a one 2d disorder waver in support
shooting and then one more 2d disorder waver in HTH/combat results.



[
[
That is true.

Jon


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