Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[joncleaves]

> On Running/Playing the Condotta
>
>
> 1200 points is Best
> First thing to note about the Condatta is that they are much better at 1200
> points than 1600 points. There are two reasons for this:>>

Given the caveat that Sean's comments on this list are all about its performance
in open tourneys, this is a great note. There are definitely lists that 'work
better' at 1200 vice 1600 (or 2000) and his summary of why is excellent.
Particularly:


> > 2) After 1200 points, you run out of the stuff you really wnat, 8 E of Pike
on
> 1200 points is good, on 1600 is just not enough. You are forced to buy C
> knights on 1600 points. The same can be said of 'only' two units of THCT/HG
(4e, Reg
> C, 0.5 THCT). Not enough for an opponent to be forced to fight it on 1600
points.
> Espcially when most army varieties occur in the last 800 points of buying an
> army. Summary: The quality of troops drop much more rapidly than other armies
> at higher points (or more correctly other armies get better stuff to deal with
> you at higher points where as the Condatta have to start buying less
desirables).
> Summary: Good stuff, just not a lot of any of it.
>

I always look at these 'army dissection' emails with a jaundiced eye given that
the player's personal fighting style and assumptions about the venue the army is
fighting in are usually bigger drivers than the 'definitive' things he says
about the army. I also think winning is far far more about the generalship of
the player than the lead. I would be more concerned about a game with a top
player using Sea Peoples than a lesser one with a supposedly 'killer' army.
However, Sean's email is so much better than the usual, I thought I'd throw
$0.02 in.


> The other major disavantage is no shieled SHK. THis might not seem big, but
Regular
> knights against Ir Sh SHK can be a real problem, as a +2 roll when you start
> down -1 for not having a shield can lead to a rout. Not as bad against
> Regulars, becuase they are less likely to get +2.>>

That -1 does look small, but consider this - on even dice he does more and one
and you recoil. He expands. Next bound he is 6 figs with the plus one for
following up to your three and a rout is extremely likely. For sure a waver.
More matchups are lost on bound two because the player downplays in his mind a
slight disadvantage in bound one. Sean is right on to point this out. It also
plays into who you expect your SHK to be fighting.


> If I know there are a lot of elephants, I will replace the
> SHK RegC with LHI Hg (or XB)/0.5 THCT, and LI XB to try and deal with the
> elephants.>>

The biggest 'issue' I have with Sean's excellent points is the number of times I
hear 'try' and 'hope'. If you are playing in an open, there WILL be elephants
(and K and chariots and bow and...). You need an answer for each. Italian
Condotta is much better in a theme than an open for just this reason.

>
> Tactics:
> General: Speed and density of points is what this army has. The knights should
> be hitting en mass by turn 3. Anything else and you will be outshot, whithered
> away, exhausted. Also, with so many knight units, a LI screen is charged with
> Reg C's to get to the crunchy stuff behind. LC is charged with Reg C knights
> to get to stuff behind. Force march Reg LC to center.>>

My biggest objection to these type mails is that they often lead to major
kibbutzing (well, you wouldn't be able to do that to me because I'd do x - oh
yeagh, well, I'd do y...etc.)
This is a good example. With a missile army I'd be doing exactly what he
describes and forcing the hurried up charges. I'd also *love* to see someon'e
plan to be charging my screen with any K - Reg C or otherwise, but that isn't
the point. Hes' right about what he should be trying to do - what is being
left out is definitive answer to each of the counters likely armies will take.
The other guy is generally not sitting there letting this all happen. There
should be some give and take in these descriptions so the new player can learn
the likely countermeasures and not just rotely charge off against LC with K and
expect good stuff to happen.

<<.. Also, none of this 1 kn per foot unit. Knights
> (especially regular) are only assured to beat/break an oponent going element
> for element. >>

This is SO right. I don't know how many games I have one because a player
thinks a 2E K unit can beat a well-equipped 4+E of foot. 5 at 7, with minuses
for things like LTS, P, 2HCT or support shooting isn't killing most foot and
then there is bound two where all those overlappers and units nearby come into
play.... Sean is on it here - 2 K units per foot to get the break.
>
> LC horde: Take Reg C knights, and dismount. No bow/JLS will effect you (even
> disorderd). Shooting at SHI -2 just is not good. >>

It can be when they are in 2E units. An CB and LB are not -2. Watch that.

<<If you rotate units, you can
> charge with mounted to try and catch. The most important thing is getting the
> SHI to take the bow shots. Look for crunchy stuff. Watch out for HC with L,
> they will kill you on foot, but thats what your support unit is for....>>

Now *that's* good stuff.

> LMI Horde: Charge, Charge, Charge.... and hope the opponent fails waver tests.
> Waiting for them to form a line at teh table center with areas to come through
> with irA is bad. Pin the marchers as far back as posible and try and go
> through the first line by turn 3, hoping that the routes break morale.>>

Two hopes and a try. I'll be continuing my LMI charging mounted training at
Table Top Games Monday night. lol

> > Bow Horde or Romans: Dismount and charge or just plain charge. The advantage
> of dismounting is that you do not get tired, not reduced in effectiveness,
etc.
> Once simounted, you count as 8 figs (13 points a piece) and you are some of
> the best infantry in the game. The disadvantage is that your opponents foot
no
> longer gets the magical disorder for being being, so no waver test. You are in
> for a long afternoon and hoping that you THCT can do better than there weapon
> of choice (usually not a problem, but you usually need to get an up roll).>>

I agree with Sean that K are not dismounting enough. But you have to play it
out and know who you can beat - you're tough, but you're only 8 figs....

>

> Elephants: Machivelli said it best, avoid like the ancients did (meaning
> Romans,
> obviously nto a warrior player). I have had the most success with a pick and
> rol
> manuver, pick with the LC, and hit with the SHK.>>

Hit what Sean? I think the new guys would benefit from detail here.

> The longer the game goes on,
> the better chance the opponent has of finding you and killing you. >>

Very true. Many players don't even know whether their army wants a lot of
bounds or a few...

<<If there are tons of elephants, default to charge, charge, charge... and hope
for the best.
> SHK can survive a turn of charging an elephant to the front to allow others to
> charge, but could be hurting after breaking off and rallying disordered 160
> paces away. Note: I have never won a defensive battle playing against
> elephants.>>

I think that this mail does not go into enough on how IC is going to beat an
elephant army in an open. I think that this is the main reason we see other
medieval armies in open tourneys.

<<Also, I have lost more games by not trying to actively follow through with my
plan, no matter how bad it gets. Changing direction and the plan mid game is the
surest
> recipe for disaster and rout. I have tried other variations of the list, but
> found that the infantry forced a defensive game and you could be picked apart
> slowly. None of the infantry hit hard or numerous enough to warrent buying and
> the XB jsut is not an effetive weapon. HG is nice, but easily avoidable, o not
> effective. SHK, like the historical Condatta, is the way to go. Not EHK, Sh,
> but SHK. Why? SHK and SHI are causes of unease for any put elephant, knights,
SHC,
> or (posibly) chariot. Something I wish I had remembered when that out flanked
> Roman general charged my general (tired, disordered, rallying) impetously to
> rout me. Can also matter with Ir infantry charging youe
> dismounted dudes.>>

Great paragraph. Should be required reading...

Jon

[Greg Regets]

Actually, it applies to those frontally charging such units.

Greg



> <<Also, I have lost more games by not trying to actively follow through with
my
plan, no matter how bad it gets. Changing direction and the plan mid game is the
surest<BR>
> > recipe for disaster and rout. I have tried other variations of the list,
but<BR>
> > found  that the infantry forced a defensive game and you could be picked
apart<BR>
> > slowly. None of the infantry hit hard or numerous enough to warrent buying
and<BR>
> > the XB jsut is not an effetive weapon. HG is nice, but easily avoidable, o
not<BR>
> > effective. SHK, like the historical Condatta, is the way to go. Not EHK,
Sh, <BR>
> > but SHK. Why? SHK and SHI are causes of unease for any put elephant,
knights,
SHC,<BR>
> > or (posibly) chariot. Something I wish I had remembered when that out
flanked<BR>
> > Roman general charged my general (tired, disordered, rallying) impetously
to<BR>
> > rout me. Can also matter with Ir infantry charging youe <BR>
> > dismounted dudes.>><BR>
> <BR>
> Great paragraph.  Should be required reading...<BR>
> <BR>
> Jon<BR>
> ***For folks not familiar with this effect of unease regarding SHI and SHK, I
might add
that this unease only goes to those charging such units. Otherwise this effect
is not
imposed. Just my
$.03!                             
Kelly

[Kelly Wilkinson]

<<Also, I have lost more games by not trying to actively follow through with my
plan, no matter how bad it gets. Changing direction and the plan mid game is the
surest
> recipe for disaster and rout. I have tried other variations of the list, but
> found that the infantry forced a defensive game and you could be picked apart
> slowly. None of the infantry hit hard or numerous enough to warrent buying and
> the XB jsut is not an effetive weapon. HG is nice, but easily avoidable, o not
> effective. SHK, like the historical Condatta, is the way to go. Not EHK, Sh,
> but SHK. Why? SHK and SHI are causes of unease for any put elephant, knights,
SHC,
> or (posibly) chariot. Something I wish I had remembered when that out flanked
> Roman general charged my general (tired, disordered, rallying) impetously to
> rout me. Can also matter with Ir infantry charging youe
> dismounted dudes.>>

Great paragraph. Should be required reading...

Jon
***For folks not familiar with this effect of unease regarding SHI and SHK, I
might add that this unease only goes to those charging such units. Otherwise
this effect is not imposed. Just my $.03! Kelly
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