Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

Salutations, gentlefolk !

Was recently considering the possibility of adding a Chinese army to my
collection.

As my interest is primarily the Classical era - between the beginning of
Early Hoplite Greek and the end of Maurikian Byzantine - and since I
would like something contemporary with these, I've a choice of:
Spring and Autumn Annals
Warring States & Ch'in
Han
Three Kingdoms & Western Ts'in
Northern & Southern Dynasties
Sui & Early T'ang

So...
What are the best lines of figures available for any of these, both in
15 & in 25mm ?

Recommendations for reading on:
general history ?
military history ?
figure painting ( besides Peers' works for Osprey)
(Are there _any_ worthwhile parts to _Armies & Enemies of Ancient
China_?)

Which of these armies has the best tournament / battlefield performance?

Which is the most fun to command ?

Which looks the most colorful / spectacular / imposing ?

What figures acre capable of morphing into earlier or later Chinese
armies, or other armies entirely?
Which figures may have similar equipment to those of earlier or later
eras, but look anachronisticly different ?

Light horsemen of the Eastern end of the Eurasian Steppe look much the
same as their contemporaries at the Western end - True, False or "Sit
down and listen a spell..." ?

Have been busy with Real Life most of the time since the first of the
year, much incoming mail sits on disk unread. If this was thoroughly
hashed out two weeks ago, my apologies. Thanks very much for any help
you can give me with this.

Happy Canada Day to all our friends north of the border, and happy July
to everyone !

Yours, John Desmond

Hi;
I've always loved using the 7th edition list (yellow book) for chin
Chinese. The main attraction of this army is its balance. You get
great close order foot (irreg a 2hct), adequate LMI, 4horse HCH and
plenty of light troops. In addition virtually every unit in the army
is bow armed. This army has generally performed well whenever I've
used it. Watching people run from the fanatic dagger-axe men is very
gratifying. The figures i use are really old hinchcliffe. Not really
the best and i'm not sure they're even available any more. The army
is slightly less effective, relatively speaking, since the
introduction of rank and a half for lance armed cavalry. 2HCT and bow
chariots used to beat virtually any non wedge forming cavalry. This
is no longer the case. God only knows what the army will be like once
the warrior lists are out though.

martin

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 7/2/2003 00:49:34 Central Daylight Time,
martymagnificent@... writes:

> God only knows what the army will be like once
> the warrior lists are out though.
>

Good thing one of the Horsemen is a big chinese fan, huh? ;)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[scott holder]

I've always loved using the 7th edition list (yellow book) for chin
Chinese. The main attraction of this army is its balance. You get
great close order foot (irreg a 2hct), adequate LMI, 4horse HCH and
plenty of light troops. In addition virtually every unit in the army
is bow armed. This army has generally performed well whenever I've
used it.

>Very few people use it, preferring Han instead. Ed Bernhard ran it when he was
out here so I got three games in against it. Knight armies appear to have an
edge against it. The mighty Spanish-led Tlaxcallans sure didn't The pike
units are interesting in that you stick one rank of bowmen in the back and lo
and behold, they become an almost invulnerable (to shooting) shooting priority
that if played correctly, do a wonderful job of sucking your opponent's missile
fire away from more meaningful targets.

God only knows what the army will be like once
the warrior lists are out though.

>The NASAMW list will be the point of departure. Now, here's a tidbit that may
or may not make it into a final list. There is some new data that indicates the
Qin and Warring State's armies used some scythed chariot dealie. More as I get
it. However, with Oriental Warrior a ways off (I'm working on Parthians in
Imperial Warrior at the moment), who knows. Sorry I can't be more specific.

>Oh, Irregular (good ole Jake) makes a full line of Chinese figures that are
completely appropriate for this period. Yes, Irregulars are the ugly ducklings
of the figure world but paint up really really well, particularly if you dip.

Scott

[scott holder]

> God only knows what the army will be like once
> the warrior lists are out though.

Good thing one of the Horsemen is a big chinese fan, huh? ;)

>You would be a big Han fan, some of us are a tad bit broader in our
Sinophilia:) Seriously folks, I will be taking great loving care with
Oriental Warrior. Wait, that sounds as if I don't take great loving care of the
other books. I'm a huge fan of the region having worked it professionally for
11 years and Jake and I have loads of painted lead covering a good chunk of the
post-Han Asian landscape. In fact, once OW is laid to rest, I'll probably try
to do something Han/pre-Han as well or finally get the Tibetans cranked out in
25mm.

>For those of you with old Spearpoints, look at a series of lists I did (Tang,
Sui, etc). Those will be departure points for their new equivalents.

>And don't forget, I try to somewhat mitigate the "new list damage" when doing
new lists. Yes, first and foremost, the historical record dictates what gets
done but oftentimes there's some wiggle room. The only time we've really gotten
radical has been when the older lists were so clearly done with virtually no
access to good research material or we were finally able to let an "in
community" expert finally put out something definitive (ala Paul and all the
Byzantine lists).

scott

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 7/2/2003 7:14:15 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Scott.Holder@... writes:

> Good thing one of the Horsemen is a big chinese fan, huh?
>
> >You would be a big Han fan, some of us are a tad bit
> broader in our Sinophilia:)>>

Untrue, list ho. They will ALL be good lists (repeat endlessly for effect...)

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 7/2/2003 17:54:23 Central Daylight Time,
mdevans@... writes:

> You could contact Amazon Miniatures for 25mm (and probably 15mm
> figures) for a number of ranges, including the old Dixon Han range
> www.amazonminiatures.com/ They are based in the UK.
>

The new Dixon 28mm Han are sweet and available at www.speartorifle.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

hi all;
was not intending to imply at all that the list would be bad. By and
large I like the new lists.Simply pointing out this is something that
should be considered by someone planning a new army. As for knights
Vs chin the chariots actually used to beat knights a goodly portion
of the time (as did the infantry). I'm yet to try the army under
warrior with rank and a half lance. I would still hope the firepower
and irreg a craziness of the army would leave you in with a good
chance. Han is a fine army from a results point of view but relies on
boring the opponent to death with an impenetrable wall of pike and
bow far too much for my liking (the examples ive seen used generally
have 96 pike and 96 foot archers!!)Eagerly awaiting the arrival of
yet more lists

martin

You could contact Amazon Miniatures for 25mm (and probably 15mm
figures) for a number of ranges, including the old Dixon Han range
www.amazonminiatures.com/ They are based in the UK.

I am currently making up a Han and Qin army. There are many
combinations of close and loose foot, being Reg and Irreg. What to
choose?

[Kelly Wilkinson]

Would that be Jake? Since I know he runs Tang. . .
Kelly

JonCleaves@... wrote:
In a message dated 7/2/2003 00:49:34 Central Daylight Time,
martymagnificent@... writes:

> God only knows what the army will be like once
> the warrior lists are out though.
>

Good thing one of the Horsemen is a big chinese fan, huh? ;)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Doug]

Second the question, having a large amount of Ral Partha Tang which I
want to paint up and put to use. Need more of the cavalry, though.