Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[scott holder]

I ran my venerable Song Dynasty list at the recent Call To Arms tourney and
surprisingly, liked the way it played. It was the first post-OW publication
action it had seen (I'd playtested it numerous times during the drafting of OW).
Okay, while this list will never approach any type of killer status, I like
working lists like this into something I can play well--it's not about finding
*the* tourney list and optimizing it to death. Instead it's about taking a list
I happen to like and optimizing it to death, as best I can.

So I figured I'd ask the assembled brain trust here to opine on how to construct
this puppy at 1200 points. I don't think it's particularly viable at 1600
points because there's just not much more you can purchase that's worth
having--I'd run Yuan Dynasty instead (same figures, yippeeeeee!!!!!!). Or
possibly Mongols if I ever paint up more Mongol cav. But at 25mm, I'm not so
sure about the efficacy of that either. But I digress.

Plus, fwiw, I like these kinds of posts. Army list composition always brings
out some interesting player biases (I use "biases" in a good way here) and I
always learn a little something about the game as a result. Please remember,
I'm not interested in "oh, I'd play such and such list instead because >insert
favorite powergaming troop type combination here,", I wanna play *this* list at
1200 pts (25mm of course).

Also, I'm trying to play this list as one of my typical counterpunching armies
since that gives me the option to attack. As such, I'm not sure how the TF's
might factor into this but I find their use very intriguing. The biggest
problem I'm having is determing how many Bowmen/Crossbowmen to use and more
importantly, how to use them. Should they be in independent units or provide
back ranks to the Swordsmen and Spearmen? Unless I'm running Reg B LHI
Longbowmen in the Burgundian Ordonnance list, I've never developed a real knack
for foot missile troops aside from the usual LI screens.

I don't have the list I ran at CTA handy. Here's a rough breakdown from memory:

Southern Song Dynasty Chinese

CinC 2E HC
x2 Line Cav 2E EHC/HC w/Fire Lance
Chinese Swordsmen 4E Reg C MI 1HCW, 1/2 Sh, 2E Reg C MI B
x4 Chinese Spearmen 6E Reg D MI LTS, 1/2 Sh w/Fire Lance
Chinese Crossbowmen 10E Reg D MI CB, 1/2 Sh, caltrops to cover 5E frontage
x2 Chinese Bowmen 6E Reg D LI B
x2 Mongol Horse Archers 4E Reg B LC B, Sh, 1/2 JLS

I eagerly await replies!

Emperor Scott

[Mark Stone]

--- On May 27 Scott Holder said: ---
>
> Southern Song Dynasty Chinese
>
> CinC 2E HC
> x2 Line Cav 2E EHC/HC w/Fire Lance
> Chinese Swordsmen 4E Reg C MI 1HCW, 1/2 Sh, 2E Reg C MI B
> x4 Chinese Spearmen 6E Reg D MI LTS, 1/2 Sh w/Fire Lance
> Chinese Crossbowmen 10E Reg D MI CB, 1/2 Sh, caltrops to cover 5E frontage
> x2 Chinese Bowmen 6E Reg D LI B
> x2 Mongol Horse Archers 4E Reg B LC B, Sh, 1/2 JLS
>

IMNSHO ("in my not so humble opinion"):

I would probably buy this list somewhat differently, and I'll get to specifics,
but first a few general comments.

First off, I really like the fact that lists like this now deserve some
attention. As Scott says, it's no killer army, but prior to Oriental Warrior
the Song were one of those armies you just flip past as not even worth
considering. There are now few Chinese lists that aren't at least reasonably
playable.

One thing of noted is that there aren't that many lists in Oriental Warriar
where the cav can get Fire Lance. And EHC equipped with Fire Lance are
surprisingly deadly, particularly to an unwary opponent who hasn't run the
numbers. They'll make a mess of the currently trendy SHC, for example, and are
quite handy at riding down Romans in fulcrum.

Since the Song are one of the few lists that can get this troop type, they
deserve attention.

My general complaint with the 1200 points here is that you should be spending
points on things you're going to win with, and minimizing points on things
you're just trying to survive with. For example:

Take more EHC w/Fire Lance, or at least take another general, so you can get
these guys going impetuously with greater ease.

LTS foot with Fire Lance can also be effective, but not if D class and not if
only MI. So take one unit of spearmen, make it 16 figures, make it C class, and
make it HI in the front rank. Beyond that I'd probably take 2 32 figure units
that are just LTS, no Fire Lance. These guys aren't there to win. They're there
to hold the line and not lose.

You have to take 8 stands of crossbowmen. I wouldn't take more than that. And I
wouldn't take caltrops, but would instead take either a ditch or ditched
palisade, which (a) provides a better defensive position, (b) is cheaper than
buying caltrops, and (c) can be placed in the forward zone per list rule.

Consider splitting one of the Mongol units into two. If so, you might downgrade
the other unit to C class to save points.

And absolutely do buy shields for the LI. It will dramatically improve their
durability, particularly when backed by EHC/HC.


-Mark Stone

[scott holder]

>Take more EHC w/Fire Lance, or at least take another general, so you
can get these guys going impetuously with greater ease.

I'd love to but the moron who wrote this list limited fire lances for
cav to 0-2 shots:) I've maxed out my fire lances. Instead of the
single general and 2 units of Line Cav, I could go with a CinC and a
Sub, each equipped with Fire Lances.

> You have to take 8 stands of crossbowmen. I wouldn't take more than
that.

Actually, they can be bowmen if the player wants. I simply made em
crossbowmen cuz that's what the figure shows. Can give em shields as
well.

Thanks for the comments. It gives me some things to think about.

scott

[Mark Stone]

--- On May 27 I said: ---

>> Take more EHC w/Fire Lance, or at least take another general, so you
>> can get these guys going impetuously with greater ease.

--- To which Scott replied: ---

> I'd love to but the moron who wrote this list limited fire lances for
> cav to 0-2 shots:) I've maxed out my fire lances.

And thus I've learned something from this exchange. I took the "0-2" line to
mean per unit, not per army....


-Mark Stone

[Ewan McNay]

OK. I figured I might as well do this in stream-of-consciousness mode.

Looking down the list, I see: a bunch of pretty bad compulsory MI; some
useful regular LI in large numbers; some mediocre cav; and a small number
of Mongols if Southern. There's no reason not to be Southern, so let's
start there.

I can take 8 elements of mongols, and if I want them to get advantage from
being Mongol then I should probably have at least one unit of HC. So:

2E Reg B HC L, B, Sh @ 82
2E Reg B LC B, w/ 1E of JLS, Sh @ 46
4E Reg C LC B @ 58

That's 186.

Generals: my usual inclination would be to keep the cav as HC and allow
for skirmish, but there is so little shock power in the army that in this
case I would probably take the CinC as EHC. There's no need for a sub at
1200 points of regular troops, but his presence would allow for
impetuosity, so let's take one. We can always drop him later if need be.
actually, the generals get shields where their supporting troops don't, so
that's an excellent reason for taking the subgeneral. Upgrading the
bodyguard to Reg A only costs 6 points and is worthwhile (B class would be
enough but is not an option).

CinC as 2E Reg A EHC/HC L, B, w/ 1E Sh and PA, shot of firelance @ 199
Sub ditto @ 129.

That's all the firelances that we're allowed. Then a couple of line cav
units - not great, but we need something to back up the mass of regular LI
I expect to have in a moment.

2x2E Reg C HC L, B @ 70 = 140.

That's 468 points of generals and cav, for 654 thus far. Actually, that's
not bad for having bought most of our expensive troops.

OK. I need to take some MI. I don't want more than I have to have, and I
want it to survive if need be, so I'm going to buy caltrops as a survival
aid.

4E Reg D MI 1HCW, 1/2 Sh, 2E of caltrops @ 58
8E Reg D MI LTS, 1/2 Sh, 4E of caltrops @ 106

I confess that I don't have a plan for these units, really. That's bad.
Maybe I should take the 1HCW guys, at least, and make them an attack unit:
1/2 HI, shot of firelance - no, wait, only spearmen get to have firelance.
Never mind. We're at 818.

OK. Then I get to buy a mass of cheap, regular LI B which can be
shielded. Good - that should work OK with the HC. I'm also going to take
a couple of small units of LMI B for additional firepower - one may work
with the Mongols, is my guess. 48 elements total available. These could
be CB if you'd rather.

2x4E Reg D LMI B, 1/2 Sh @ 50 = 100
5x6E Reg D LI B, 1/2 Sh @ 40 = 200

That gets us to 1118 points - getting close, and I'm glad that I opted not
to upgrade to HI, for example. 1200 points is usually a 4-foot frontage
in 15mm; each of those LI units covers about 5" of frontage, so easily
enough to put up a good screen.

82 points left: that buys us a couple of blot-shooters on carts, if one
desires, but that hardly fits with a HC/LI army. Instead, I'd probably
buy another unit of line cav (70) and then save some points to spend on
inceniaries (see list rule). As I understand it, because all of my troops
other than the Mongols come from lines that have minima, I am now not
permitted to trade any in to buy incendiary shots - a rule change that I
hate, but that's not really relevant . I might actually take this
further and spend the whole 82 on incendiaries; I already have 5 units of
lance cav, and being able to disorder opponents is likely to be more
relevant to winning than is having another such unit. OK, I talked myself
into it: save 82 points for buying incendiaries at the time of battle.

I end up with:
5 2E units of EHC or HC L, B, often Sh.
2 units of good reg LC
2 units of bad MI
2 units of shielded reg LMI B
5 units of shielded reg LI B

16 units at 1200 is probably more than most opponents. I should be able
to force a breakthrough either by swarming or with incendiary arrows
followed by lancers. And the MI should take a very long time to die.

There you go, Scott .


On Fri, 27 May 2005, Holder, Scott wrote:
> Southern Song Dynasty Chinese
>
> CinC 2E HC
> x2 Line Cav 2E EHC/HC w/Fire Lance
> Chinese Swordsmen 4E Reg C MI 1HCW, 1/2 Sh, 2E Reg C MI B
> x4 Chinese Spearmen 6E Reg D MI LTS, 1/2 Sh w/Fire Lance
> Chinese Crossbowmen 10E Reg D MI CB, 1/2 Sh, caltrops to cover 5E frontage
> x2 Chinese Bowmen 6E Reg D LI B
> x2 Mongol Horse Archers 4E Reg B LC B, Sh, 1/2 JLS
>
> I eagerly await replies!
>
> Emperor Scott
>
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