Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Tom McMillan]

In a message dated 5/14/02 9:41:57 AM, WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com writes:

<< Perhaps I can help slightly. The stirup was
introduced by the Avars to the Byzantines. Where they
got it remains unknown, >>

Certainly the standard belief. But consider the following, from Howarth's
new 'Attila' book.

'Professor Bokonyi <earlier cited as 'the leading Hungarian authority on
Hun animals'> is also of the opinion thatt he Huns invented the stirrup.
Other authorities have given the credit to the Sarmatians. But, whatever the
truth, there is no doubt that the Huns used stirrups to increase their
effectiveness as mounted warriors with devastating effect.'

I would be very intertested in seeing Bokonyi's work, rathert than the
secondary quote, but since most of it seems to be based on grave finds,
stirrups would either be there or they wouldn't. There would be little room
for conjecture.

[John Murphy]

Oh, there is still a lot of room for conjecture. The ancient Indians
used stirrups for heaven's sake way back when. But a rope toe loop for
aid in mounting a horse is not the same as a stirrup secured to a good
saddle.

Furthermore it is my impression the whole stirrup thing has been
thankfully relegated as being less important regarding lancers than it
was in the Lynn White etcetera days when the whole mess seems to have
been first brought up. Stirrups help in mounting a horse and provide
comfort over distances when riding by relieving the muscle strain in
the legs from hanging there bouncing around for long periods. In even
more directly military usage, stirrups are an aid for balance in the
saddle which helps among other things when fighting especially enemy
foot with shorter weapons. The "lance" is actually well-conceived for
use without stirrups since having a longer reach it requires less of
the rider's balance. Sorry but you can't lean forward to brace
yourself with stirrups on a charging horse to prevent yourself from
going over the croup. Your balls would melt under the pounding, your
stirrup leathers would bust under the impact, and you'd still wind up
on your butt. All points which the "old scholarship" seems to have
missed in casting about for a reason for the increased numbers of
cavalry in the Carolingian armies.

Also hopefully no one will take this the wrong way but there's
supposedly a lot of Nationalist propoganda that passes for history
coming out of certain parts of the world now days. Unfortunately, some
of the genuine article too so it is hard for an amateur like myself to
tell.

And even the Avar fans now accept that their use of the stirrup was
derived from its use in a military fashion by the barbarians of
Northern China at an even earlier date. See the article on the web
entitled "THE STIRRUP AND ITS EFFECT ON CHINESE MILITARY HISTORY" by
Prof. Albert Dien. I beleive this has all the info on sources etcetera
to back it up. I have a copy on my computer and it is only a few pages
of careful reading.

--- In WarriorRules@y..., Quahog25@a... wrote:
>'Professor Bokonyi the leading Hungarian authority on
> Hun animals is also of the opinion that the Huns invented the
stirrup.
> Other authorities have given the credit to the Sarmatians. But,
whatever the
> truth, there is no doubt that the Huns used stirrups to increase
their
> effectiveness as mounted warriors with devastating effect.'

> stirrups would either be there or they wouldn't. There would be
little room
> for conjecture.

[joncleaves]

Scott, Scott, Scott. Just let 'em run....


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Having riden horses most of my youth, I can assure
everyone that the main purpose for a stirup is in
controlling the animal more comfortably when in hands
free mode. One of the soldiers found buried in Pompii
was a cavalryman. They knew because of the nodules on
is inner shin that had formed from years of grasping
the horse with his lower leg. Using pressure with the
leg and foot has always been the means of controlling
horses in combat, but the advent of the stirup made it
less demanding upon the rider. As I said previously,
the couched lance was a much later development, and I
admit I was assuming that when people think of lance
they think of it couched. The thrusting spear from
horseback goes as far back as the neo-assyrians, and
we could extrapolate lance from that.

In combat what the stirup does for the rider, as a
secondary use, was to allow him to stand on horseback.
This action allows for more force through body
inertia on downstrokes with swords, and it allowed
reach and angle of attack to increase--i.e. stabbing
down above an infantry sheild.

boyd



--- rollsup3 <jjmurphy@...> wrote:
>
> Furthermore it is my impression the whole stirrup
> thing has been
> thankfully relegated as being less important
> regarding lancers than it
> was in the Lynn White etcetera days when the whole
> mess seems to have
> been first brought up. Stirrups help in mounting a
> horse and provide
> comfort over distances when riding by relieving the
> muscle strain in
> the legs from hanging there bouncing around for long
> periods. In even
> more directly military usage, stirrups are an aid
> for balance in the
> saddle which helps among other things when fighting
> especially enemy
> foot with shorter weapons. The "lance" is actually
> well-conceived for
> use without stirrups since having a longer reach it
> requires less of
> the rider's balance. Sorry but you can't lean
> forward to brace
> yourself with stirrups on a charging horse to
> prevent yourself from
> going over the croup. Your balls would melt under
> the pounding, your
> stirrup leathers would bust under the impact, and
> you'd still wind up
> on your butt. All points which the "old scholarship"
> seems to have
> missed in casting about for a reason for the
> increased numbers of
> cavalry in the Carolingian armies.
>
> Also hopefully no one will take this the wrong way
> but there's
> supposedly a lot of Nationalist propoganda that
> passes for history
> coming out of certain parts of the world now days.
> Unfortunately, some
> of the genuine article too so it is hard for an
> amateur like myself to
> tell.
>
> And even the Avar fans now accept that their use of
> the stirrup was
> derived from its use in a military fashion by the
> barbarians of
> Northern China at an even earlier date. See the
> article on the web
> entitled "THE STIRRUP AND ITS EFFECT ON CHINESE
> MILITARY HISTORY" by
> Prof. Albert Dien. I beleive this has all the info
> on sources etcetera
> to back it up. I have a copy on my computer and it
> is only a few pages
> of careful reading.
>
> --- In WarriorRules@y..., Quahog25@a... wrote:
> >'Professor Bokonyi the leading Hungarian authority
> on
> > Hun animals is also of the opinion that the Huns
> invented the
> stirrup.
> > Other authorities have given the credit to the
> Sarmatians. But,
> whatever the
> > truth, there is no doubt that the Huns used
> stirrups to increase
> their
> > effectiveness as mounted warriors with devastating
> effect.'
>
> > stirrups would either be there or they wouldn't.
> There would be
> little room
> > for conjecture.
>
>


=====
Wake up and smell the Assyrians

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[scott holder]

This is one of those cases where it might be good of some of the newer
members of this group went back into some earlier egroup postings and
look for my opus on stirrups. That will explain why they have no
bearing in Warrior!

>>> jjmurphy@... 05/14/02 16:50 PM >>>
Oh, there is still a lot of room for conjecture. The ancient Indians
used stirrups for heaven's sake way back when. But a rope toe loop for
aid in mounting a horse is not the same as a stirrup secured to a good
saddle.

Furthermore it is my impression the whole stirrup thing has been
thankfully relegated as being less important regarding lancers than it
was in the Lynn White etcetera days when the whole mess seems to have
been first brought up. Stirrups help in mounting a horse and provide
comfort over distances when riding by relieving the muscle strain in
the legs from hanging there bouncing around for long periods. In even
more directly military usage, stirrups are an aid for balance in the
saddle which helps among other things when fighting especially enemy
foot with shorter weapons. The "lance" is actually well-conceived for
use without stirrups since having a longer reach it requires less of
the rider's balance. Sorry but you can't lean forward to brace
yourself with stirrups on a charging horse to prevent yourself from
going over the croup. Your balls would melt under the pounding, your
stirrup leathers would bust under the impact, and you'd still wind up
on your butt. All points which the "old scholarship" seems to have
missed in casting about for a reason for the increased numbers of
cavalry in the Carolingian armies.

Also hopefully no one will take this the wrong way but there's
supposedl a lot of Nationalist propoganda that passes for history
coming out of certain parts of the world now days. Unfortunately, some
of the genuine article too so it is hard for an amateur like myself to
tell.

And even the Avar fans now accept that their use of the stirrup was
derived from its use in a military fashion by the barbarians of
Northern China at an even earlier date. See the article on the web
entitled "THE STIRRUP AND ITS EFFECT ON CHINESE MILITARY HISTORY" by
Prof. Albert Dien. I beleive this has all the info on sources etcetera
to back it up. I have a copy on my computer and it is only a few pages
of careful reading.

--- In WarriorRules@y..., Quahog25@a... wrote:
>'Professor Bokonyi the leading Hungarian authority on
> Hun animals is also of the opinion that the Huns invented the
stirrup.
> Other authorities have given the credit to the Sarmatians. But,
whatever the
> truth, there is no doubt that the Huns used stirrups to increase
their
> effectiveness as mounted warriors with devastating effect.'

> stirrups would either be there or they wouldn't. There would be
little room
> for conjecture.



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[Chris Bump]

Scott, Scott, Scott. Just let 'em run....


:^):^), Seriously! AS much of a hot button as this is for me, even I've learned
to just smile and move on to the next post. (Even though anyone who has spent
any time on a horse KNOWS that the stirups are for far more than comfort during
a long ride!) ;^o Sorry, just couldn't help myself. :^)
Chris

[joncleaves]

<<(Even though anyone who has spent any time on a horse KNOWS that the stirups
are for far more than comfort during a long ride!)>>

Indeed. No one I know is debating that. :)

Hey, despite the silk over my armor, my 2HCT and my B, I am a cavalryman at
heart as well.