Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

I was reviewing some Swiss list rule clarifications and would like to
bring up a few points.
An example I found from a few months back had the rear rank 2HCT boys
coming through against an opposition pike block. The opposition pike
did not get a +2 for fighting against shieldless LHI. As the rules
are written I believe they should have as they say that only 2HCT
that are charging or receiving a charge do not count shieldless.
A question I have not seen asked is do the 2HCT figures count the -2
for facing steady Pike/LTS when they first come through? The rules
seem clear in that they say you do when you are at 1st contact but I
thought I would check to see what your intent was.
One last oddity is that Swiss cannot form Orb due to being loose
formation troops. Since they did so frequently in actual battles,
this may be something to review.

I have been playing Swiss now for 6 months and have found them fun.
However, I think the Swiss list rules would be both better received
and simpler if the replacing 2HCT figures order in the bound they
come through is defined by that of the rest of the body. You could
then remove the phrase "at first contact" and just have them in the
melee as if it were continuing normally. I think if an opponent does
the hard work of disordering you in combat they should receive the
benefits. This would also apply if the Swiss unit had been shot up to
disorder before contact.

This may initially seem a bit extreme but I have worked through many
permutations and find it to be fair. It gives a way for the 2HCT men
to be used effectively within the same unit as the pike without
robbing the opposition of any good work they may have done to gain a
disorder. I especially checked out how they go against SHK if they
get a little unlucky and lose the first bound;

1st rank 4 LHI Pike, 2nd rank 4 LMI Pike, 3rd rank 4 LHI 2HCT versus
6 SHK L, Sh

Bound one ( SHK impetuous charge );
SHK:- 5@4 + 1 (charging) +2 (impetuous) +1(lucky dice) -2 (vs P) =
factor 6 = 25 casualties
Swiss:- 8@2 + 1 (vs impetuos mtd) = factor 3 = 20 casualties

Swiss pushed back and 2HCT come through

Bound two with even rolls
SHK:- 3@2 (LHI) + 2 (shieldless) +2 (vs disordered foot) +1
(following up) -1 (vs 2hct) -1 (disorder) -1 (tired) = factor 4 = 9
casualties
Swiss 8@2 (2hct and pike have same factor) -1 ( disorder ) = factor 1
= 12

The Swiss still win the combat and next bound it is all bad for the
Knights. The Swiss received the benefit of the 2HCT coming through
via the -1 that the Knights faced and the Knights got a +2 reward for
fighting disordered foot.
Under the current method with the 2HCT counting steady, the Knights
get belted by 14 casualties to 3 (or 6 depending on whether the 2HCT
count shieldless)which causes them a waver test for becoming
disordered whilst already disordered (1cpf and twice as many). This
is not much reward for having pushed a foot unit back.

The above scenario carries through to most situations. The 2HCT
coming through is always good because you are going to be shieldless
anyway but you might as well do more damage. 2HCT is better against
most troops than pike. As long as the 2HCT don't have to face the -2
for first contact against pike/lts they work out ok here also.

Apologies for the length of the post.


Cheers…..Geoff

[Todd Kaeser]

Geoff,

Not being the author of the Swiss rules, but being familiar w/ them
historically your example proves why the Swiss pike/halberd units were never
broken by knights. They are now historically accurate in how they fight.

Todd K

siwardrocks <geoffcrick@...> wrote:
I was reviewing some Swiss list rule clarifications and would like to
bring up a few points.
An example I found from a few months back had the rear rank 2HCT boys
coming through against an opposition pike block. The opposition pike
did not get a +2 for fighting against shieldless LHI. As the rules
are written I believe they should have as they say that only 2HCT
that are charging or receiving a charge do not count shieldless.
A question I have not seen asked is do the 2HCT figures count the -2
for facing steady Pike/LTS when they first come through? The rules
seem clear in that they say you do when you are at 1st contact but I
thought I would check to see what your intent was.
One last oddity is that Swiss cannot form Orb due to being loose
formation troops. Since they did so frequently in actual battles,
this may be something to review.

I have been playing Swiss now for 6 months and have found them fun.
However, I think the Swiss list rules would be both better received
and simpler if the replacing 2HCT figures order in the bound they
come through is defined by that of the rest of the body. You could
then remove the phrase "at first contact" and just have them in the
melee as if it were continuing normally. I think if an opponent does
the hard work of disordering you in combat they should receive the
benefits. This would also apply if the Swiss unit had been shot up to
disorder before contact.

This may initially seem a bit extreme but I have worked through many
permutations and find it to be fair. It gives a way for the 2HCT men
to be used effectively within the same unit as the pike without
robbing the opposition of any good work they may have done to gain a
disorder. I especially checked out how they go against SHK if they
get a little unlucky and lose the first bound;

1st rank 4 LHI Pike, 2nd rank 4 LMI Pike, 3rd rank 4 LHI 2HCT versus
6 SHK L, Sh

Bound one ( SHK impetuous charge );
SHK:- 5@4 + 1 (charging) +2 (impetuous) +1(lucky dice) -2 (vs P) =
factor 6 = 25 casualties
Swiss:- 8@2 + 1 (vs impetuos mtd) = factor 3 = 20 casualties

Swiss pushed back and 2HCT come through

Bound two with even rolls
SHK:- 3@2 (LHI) + 2 (shieldless) +2 (vs disordered foot) +1
(following up) -1 (vs 2hct) -1 (disorder) -1 (tired) = factor 4 = 9
casualties
Swiss 8@2 (2hct and pike have same factor) -1 ( disorder ) = factor 1
= 12

The Swiss still win the combat and next bound it is all bad for the
Knights. The Swiss received the benefit of the 2HCT coming through
via the -1 that the Knights faced and the Knights got a +2 reward for
fighting disordered foot.
Under the current method with the 2HCT counting steady, the Knights
get belted by 14 casualties to 3 (or 6 depending on whether the 2HCT
count shieldless)which causes them a waver test for becoming
disordered whilst already disordered (1cpf and twice as many). This
is not much reward for having pushed a foot unit back.

The above scenario carries through to most situations. The 2HCT
coming through is always good because you are going to be shieldless
anyway but you might as well do more damage. 2HCT is better against
most troops than pike. As long as the 2HCT don't have to face the -2
for first contact against pike/lts they work out ok here also.

Apologies for the length of the post.


Cheers…..Geoff






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Frank Gilson]

Believe me, the Swiss infantry need all their list rules 'as-is' in
order to be good infantry that you'd purchase and play.

Mark Stone or Ed Forbes can comment further, but if the knight unit
you specify below is able to expand, then it beats the Swiss.

As the 2HCT that slide on up to replace are ordered and first
contact, their opponents do not get to count them shieldless, nor do
mounted get fighting disordered foot.

Swiss infantry are expensive, not widely available, and vulnerable
to shooting. There are some hand-to-hand encounters that don't favor
them either, even given their rules.

Opposing them historically, use CB or LB or Artillery to fire upon
their line...outflank their line, etc.

Frank

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "siwardrocks" <geoffcrick@o...>
wrote:
>
> I was reviewing some Swiss list rule clarifications and would like
to
> bring up a few points.
> An example I found from a few months back had the rear rank 2HCT
boys
> coming through against an opposition pike block. The opposition
pike
> did not get a +2 for fighting against shieldless LHI. As the rules
> are written I believe they should have as they say that only 2HCT
> that are charging or receiving a charge do not count shieldless.
> A question I have not seen asked is do the 2HCT figures count the -
2
> for facing steady Pike/LTS when they first come through? The rules
> seem clear in that they say you do when you are at 1st contact but
I
> thought I would check to see what your intent was.
> One last oddity is that Swiss cannot form Orb due to being loose
> formation troops. Since they did so frequently in actual battles,
> this may be something to review.
>
> I have been playing Swiss now for 6 months and have found them
fun.
> However, I think the Swiss list rules would be both better
received
> and simpler if the replacing 2HCT figures order in the bound they
> come through is defined by that of the rest of the body. You could
> then remove the phrase "at first contact" and just have them in
the
> melee as if it were continuing normally. I think if an opponent
does
> the hard work of disordering you in combat they should receive the
> benefits. This would also apply if the Swiss unit had been shot up
to
> disorder before contact.
>
> This may initially seem a bit extreme but I have worked through
many
> permutations and find it to be fair. It gives a way for the 2HCT
men
> to be used effectively within the same unit as the pike without
> robbing the opposition of any good work they may have done to gain
a
> disorder. I especially checked out how they go against SHK if they
> get a little unlucky and lose the first bound;
>
> 1st rank 4 LHI Pike, 2nd rank 4 LMI Pike, 3rd rank 4 LHI 2HCT
versus
> 6 SHK L, Sh
>
> Bound one ( SHK impetuous charge );
> SHK:- 5@4 + 1 (charging) +2 (impetuous) +1(lucky dice) -2 (vs P)
=
> factor 6 = 25 casualties
> Swiss:- 8@2 + 1 (vs impetuos mtd) = factor 3 = 20 casualties
>
> Swiss pushed back and 2HCT come through
>
> Bound two with even rolls
> SHK:- 3@2 (LHI) + 2 (shieldless) +2 (vs disordered foot) +1
> (following up) -1 (vs 2hct) -1 (disorder) -1 (tired) = factor 4 =
9
> casualties
> Swiss 8@2 (2hct and pike have same factor) -1 ( disorder ) =
factor 1
> = 12
>
> The Swiss still win the combat and next bound it is all bad for
the
> Knights. The Swiss received the benefit of the 2HCT coming through
> via the -1 that the Knights faced and the Knights got a +2 reward
for
> fighting disordered foot.
> Under the current method with the 2HCT counting steady, the
Knights
> get belted by 14 casualties to 3 (or 6 depending on whether the
2HCT
> count shieldless)which causes them a waver test for becoming
> disordered whilst already disordered (1cpf and twice as many).
This
> is not much reward for having pushed a foot unit back.
>
> The above scenario carries through to most situations. The 2HCT
> coming through is always good because you are going to be
shieldless
> anyway but you might as well do more damage. 2HCT is better
against
> most troops than pike. As long as the 2HCT don't have to face the -
2
> for first contact against pike/lts they work out ok here also.
>
> Apologies for the length of the post.
>
>
> Cheers…..Geoff
>

[Ed Forbes]

I was a sad boy when the list rule was changed to require Swiss to recoil.

No recoil, no expansion against them. I much prefered to be disordered in place
as Swiss instead of recoiling.


This change reduced the Swiss considerably. the Swiss used to be my main battle
line and now I take much fewer Swiss since they were forced to recoil.



Ed Forbes

-- "Frank Gilson" <franktrevorgilson@...> wrote:

Believe me, the Swiss infantry need all their list rules 'as-is' in
order to be good infantry that you'd purchase and play.

Mark Stone or Ed Forbes can comment further, but if the knight unit
you specify below is able to expand, then it beats the Swiss.

As the 2HCT that slide on up to replace are ordered and first
contact, their opponents do not get to count them shieldless, nor do
mounted get fighting disordered foot.

Swiss infantry are expensive, not widely available, and vulnerable
to shooting. There are some hand-to-hand encounters that don't favor
them either, even given their rules.

Opposing them historically, use CB or LB or Artillery to fire upon
their line...outflank their line, etc.

Frank

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "siwardrocks" <geoffcrick@o...>
wrote:
>
> I was reviewing some Swiss list rule clarifications and would like
to
> bring up a few points.
> An example I found from a few months back had the rear rank 2HCT
boys
> coming through against an opposition pike block. The opposition
pike
> did not get a +2 for fighting against shieldless LHI. As the rules
> are written I believe they should have as they say that only 2HCT
> that are charging or receiving a charge do not count shieldless.
> A question I have not seen asked is do the 2HCT figures count the -
2
> for facing steady Pike/LTS when they first come through? The rules
> seem clear in that they say you do when you are at 1st contact but
I
> thought I would check to see what your intent was.
> One last oddity is that Swiss cannot form Orb due to being loose
> formation troops. Since they did so frequently in actual battles,
> this may be something to review.
>
> I have been playing Swiss now for 6 months and have found them
fun.
> However, I think the Swiss list rules would be both better
received
> and simpler if the replacing 2HCT figures order in the bound they
> come through is defined by that of the rest of the body. You could
> then remove the phrase "at first contact" and just have them in
the
> melee as if it were continuing normally. I think if an opponent
does
> the hard work of disordering you in combat they should receive the
> benefits. This would also apply if the Swiss unit had been shot up
to
> disorder before contact.
>
> This may initially seem a bit extreme but I have worked through
many
> permutations and find it to be fair. It gives a way for the 2HCT
men
> to be used effectively within the same unit as the pike without
> robbing the opposition of any good work they may have done to gain
a
> disorder. I especially checked out how they go against SHK if they
> get a little unlucky and lose the first bound;
>
> 1st rank 4 LHI Pike, 2nd rank 4 LMI Pike, 3rd rank 4 LHI 2HCT
versus
> 6 SHK L, Sh
>
> Bound one ( SHK impetuous charge );
> SHK:- 5@4 + 1 (charging) +2 (impetuous) +1(lucky dice) -2 (vs P)
=
> factor 6 = 25 casualties
> Swiss:- 8@2 + 1 (vs impetuos mtd) = factor 3 = 20 casualties
>
> Swiss pushed back and 2HCT come through
>
> Bound two with even rolls
> SHK:- 3@2 (LHI) + 2 (shieldless) +2 (vs disordered foot) +1
> (following up) -1 (vs 2hct) -1 (disorder) -1 (tired) = factor 4 =
9
> casualties
> Swiss 8@2 (2hct and pike have same factor) -1 ( disorder ) =
factor 1
> = 12
>
> The Swiss still win the combat and next bound it is all bad for
the
> Knights. The Swiss received the benefit of the 2HCT coming through
> via the -1 that the Knights faced and the Knights got a +2 reward
for
> fighting disordered foot.
> Under the current method with the 2HCT counting steady, the
Knights
> get belted by 14 casualties to 3 (or 6 depending on whether the
2HCT
> count shieldless)which causes them a waver test for becoming
> disordered whilst already disordered (1cpf and twice as many).
This
> is not much reward for having pushed a foot unit back.
>
> The above scenario carries through to most situations. The 2HCT
> coming through is always good because you are going to be
shieldless
> anyway but you might as well do more damage. 2HCT is better
against
> most troops than pike. As long as the 2HCT don't have to face the -
2
> for first contact against pike/lts they work out ok here also.
>
> Apologies for the length of the post.
>
>
> Cheers…..Geoff
>









Yahoo! Groups Links

I agree. I would rather the Swiss took the effects of disorder than
be pushed back. Other pike phalanx murder you in the second bound as
they get 12 figures on a one element frontage due to following up.
The halberdiers coming through does nothing to stop this.


Cheers...........Geoff

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "eforbes100@j..."
<eforbes100@j...> wrote:
>
> I was a sad boy when the list rule was changed to require Swiss to
recoil.
>
> No recoil, no expansion against them. I much prefered to be
disordered in place as Swiss instead of recoiling.
>
>
> This change reduced the Swiss considerably. the Swiss used to be my
main battle line and now I take much fewer Swiss since they were
forced to recoil.
>
>
>
> Ed Forbes
>
>