Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Mark Stone]

--- On October 29 John Murphy said: ---

> however, I ran into a number of similar situations where enemy
> knights came up to charge my LI.
> while I had the room to stay <120p from the back of the LI rear rank
> but >160p from the front of the LI front rank,
> I lost my nerve thinking they would somehow blow thru my LI and go
> long in pursuit to convert into my knights standing
> so I moved my knights right up behind (in retrospect probably even
> riskier) and countered the LI back thru
>
> tactics question is...
> I blew it didn't I? The idea was that my LI stands so even if it
> breaks it only routs 120p and the back rank fails to interpenetrate
> so the enemy knights can not pursue thru and convert into my knights.
> in fact, this was maybe a golden opportunity to hit the enemy
> knights while "stuck to" my routing LI

Yes, you blew it. The idea is exactly what you say here: LI stands, routs, and
rout moves 120p, leaving your knights positioned to charge through into his
knights.

Generally, your LI wants to evade from a knight charge if, and only if, it has a
greater than 50% of evading away without getting caught. Otherwise you want to
take it at the halt.

By the way, don't worry so much about your opponent breaking through your LI and
getting a converted charge into your knights. People often overlook the fact
that the strength of a knight unit is its ability to _resist_ damage, _not_
it's ability to put out damage. Six figures of medium cav with lance do exactly
the same amount of damage as six figures of SHK with lance. The difference is in
the defensive strength of the the two.

For example: let's suppose you have a 2 stand unit of HK, 1 wide and 2 deep,
hanging out behind your LI. Your opponent charges the LI impetuously with 2
stands of SHK, also 1 wide and 2 deep. He beats your LI, fails to rout them,
but does 3 times as many, and hence breaks through converting into your HK.

First of all, consider the fatigue he's just piled up on his SHK: he probably
took 1 CPF in prep shooting, another in support and hand to hand combined, so
he's got: 2 (cav charging) + 1 (impetuous) + 1 (knights charging) +1 (prep) + 1
(support/hth) + 1 (charging consecutive bounds) + 2 (cav charging) + 1
(impetuous) + 1 (knights charging) = 11 CPF. Second, consider that he's now put
a knight unit _behind_ your LI, and thus out of reach of help from other units
of his. Finally, consider that he needs to roll up to rout your HK, and if he
doesn't rout them, he's toast. L charging HK is only a 2, + 2 (cav charging) +
1 (impetuous) -1 (waaaaaay tired) = 4. 5@4=15. Not 3 CPF. If he got disordered
somewhere along the way (not unlikely) it's even worse for him.

Moral of the story: given two well-supported lines of LI, the guy who resorts to
charging LI with his knights is probably going to lose. Be patient, and trust
your battle plan.


-Mark Stone

[Mark Stone]

Note to self:

No posting messages before morning coffee.

That's +2 for mounted impetuous, and +1 for mounted charge (not the other way
around). Same factors though, and the argument is still the same.


-Mark Stone

[Ewan McNay]

On Sun, 30 Oct 2005, Mark Stone wrote:
> of his. Finally, consider that he needs to roll up to rout your HK, and if he
> doesn't rout them, he's toast. L charging HK is only a 2, + 2 (cav charging) +
> 1 (impetuous) -1 (waaaaaay tired) = 4. 5@4=15. Not 3 CPF. If he got disordered
> somewhere along the way (not unlikely) it's even worse for him.

Granted - and in line with Mark's point - the HK are only giving out 3@0
or similar, so doing nothing to the incoming K. The incoming K could even
choose to break through again, and might well so choose; now they're
behind the second line, potentially out of reach of any immediate
response, and can turn for free to hit the rear of the now-disordered HK
unit they just broke through. Not a bad alternative to routing the HK on
contact.

> Moral of the story: given two well-supported lines of LI, the guy who resorts
to
> charging LI with his knights is probably going to lose. Be patient, and trust
> your battle plan.

Well.. maybe. But if I get to be the guy charging in the context of
converting into a stationary opposing K unit as a worst case, then I'll
take it . So the other moral is not to leave your supports hanging out
where they can be converted into. Surprise .

[John Murphy]

The situation was more along the lines of this...

I had several units of 6E LI B with front rank Sh
These got the advantage, as expected, over the very few enemy LI HG
This left them free to push up towards the enemy EHK behind

My LI was, as you stated, supported by my HK - with the idea to keep
in <120p from the rear edge (supporting) but >160p from the front
(so requiring a break-thru _and_ an up-roll on distance to convert)

But the shtick was that the EHK came in mass and my LI fire was
going to be split up badly - he was setting up to charge one 6E LI
unit with 3 units of EHK and the other with 2 units of EHK, while I
had only 4 units of HK behind in support. When he came right up to
81p away I chickened out of my plan thinking if he routed me that
somehow he could convert - which I do not think is the case as he
actually needs to _not_ rout me and break-thru (?) very unlikely in
this situation (unless I tried to evade). But needless to say I was
not going to do anything to him other than give him 3 FP for the
(non-impetuous) charge into my standing LI.

However, even being disordered by charging in and replacing my
routing LI next bound I think this might have had a chance to get an
advantage.

I wish I understood the rules surrounding all this a bit better, in
terms of who gets to do what. eg... Wuuld the EHK have got to
counter-charge me somehow? What conditions would permit them to
convert into me? I think if I knew this down pat I would be less
likely to opt myself out of possible advantages like this.

[John Murphy]

I just posted a diagram in ppt "interpenetration" under the rules
questions folder

Curious about...

a. What has to happen here, assuming the EHK all charge, for them to
convert into the HK? Looks to me like they have to (unlikely) not
break the LI, opt to break thru, and then roll long in pursuit after
opting to break thru?

b. If they break the LI the LI is left split with (at least) one
rank still in front of the friendly HK, the other rank beyond unless
they roll short. Does this mean the pursuit of the EHK hits the LI
since they do not fully uncover the HK?

c. If next bound the EHK is in contact with the LI after routing it
as described above, and the LI is split by the HK, and the HK
charges (disordered, by interpenetrating in a charge) the EHK
replacing the routed LI.... what can the EHK do? Can they counter
charge? If they can not what weapons and circumstances do they count
for HtH against the charging HK?

Does this manuever make any tactical sense?

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "John" <jjmurphy@s...> wrote:
> I wish I understood the rules surrounding all this a bit better,
in
> terms of who gets to do what. eg... Wuuld the EHK have got to
> counter-charge me somehow? What conditions would permit them to
> convert into me? I think if I knew this down pat I would be less
> likely to opt myself out of possible advantages like this.

[Frank Gilson]

Just have your cav (HK, whatever) 241 paces back behind the front
edge of the LI. Any breakthrough against your LI will, even if long,
fail to contact your supporting cavalry.

The bound after the charge hits your LI you can advance that cav as
necessary to attack anything that charged the LI, excepting if the
enemy chargers recalled (presumably because you chose to evade the
LI and the enemy did not contact them.)

Frank

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "John" <jjmurphy@s...> wrote:
>
> The situation was more along the lines of this...
>
> I had several units of 6E LI B with front rank Sh
> These got the advantage, as expected, over the very few enemy LI HG
> This left them free to push up towards the enemy EHK behind
>
> My LI was, as you stated, supported by my HK - with the idea to
keep
> in <120p from the rear edge (supporting) but >160p from the front
> (so requiring a break-thru _and_ an up-roll on distance to convert)
>
> But the shtick was that the EHK came in mass and my LI fire was
> going to be split up badly - he was setting up to charge one 6E LI
> unit with 3 units of EHK and the other with 2 units of EHK, while
I
> had only 4 units of HK behind in support. When he came right up to
> 81p away I chickened out of my plan thinking if he routed me that
> somehow he could convert - which I do not think is the case as he
> actually needs to _not_ rout me and break-thru (?) very unlikely
in
> this situation (unless I tried to evade). But needless to say I
was
> not going to do anything to him other than give him 3 FP for the
> (non-impetuous) charge into my standing LI.
>
> However, even being disordered by charging in and replacing my
> routing LI next bound I think this might have had a chance to get
an
> advantage.
>
> I wish I understood the rules surrounding all this a bit better,
in
> terms of who gets to do what. eg... Wuuld the EHK have got to
> counter-charge me somehow? What conditions would permit them to
> convert into me? I think if I knew this down pat I would be less
> likely to opt myself out of possible advantages like this.
>

[joncleaves]

If you have not had your questions answered, John, could you please separate out
the rules questions you need me to answer. Thanks.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: John <jjmurphy@...>
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:40:52 -0000
Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: TACTICS knights behind LI


I just posted a diagram in ppt "interpenetration" under the rules
questions folder

Curious about...

a. What has to happen here, assuming the EHK all charge, for them to
convert into the HK? Looks to me like they have to (unlikely) not
break the LI, opt to break thru, and then roll long in pursuit after
opting to break thru?

b. If they break the LI the LI is left split with (at least) one
rank still in front of the friendly HK, the other rank beyond unless
they roll short. Does this mean the pursuit of the EHK hits the LI
since they do not fully uncover the HK?

c. If next bound the EHK is in contact with the LI after routing it
as described above, and the LI is split by the HK, and the HK
charges (disordered, by interpenetrating in a charge) the EHK
replacing the routed LI.... what can the EHK do? Can they counter
charge? If they can not what weapons and circumstances do they count
for HtH against the charging HK?

Does this manuever make any tactical sense?

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, "John" <jjmurphy@s...> wrote:
> I wish I understood the rules surrounding all this a bit better,
in
> terms of who gets to do what. eg... Wuuld the EHK have got to
> counter-charge me somehow? What conditions would permit them to
> convert into me? I think if I knew this down pat I would be less
> likely to opt myself out of possible advantages like this.








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