Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[John Murphy]

What are some of the tactical ramifications of the Mongol Cavalry
rules? The 1.5 ranks is an obvious bonus, allowing them an advantage
(albeit dicey) in some likely cases of combat. And they can use
counters in an offensive manner without being limited to use in
response to a threat. But what about the interpenetration rules? The
difference being they are not disordered by interpenetrating a moving
unit or by being themselves interpenetrated.

Does this facilitate having an HC unit behind an LC unit now? Whereas
formerly this would force the LC to drop back elements or deviate in
an evade, risking getting caught, now they simply pass thru without
disordering themselves or the HC. And it also permits the pass-thru on
a LC recall move, normally blocked. The HC on the other hand can now
charge while the LC evades simultaneously without the LC being
disordered (the charging HC would still be disordered). If I have the
rules correct.

But what are the kinds of tactics enabled by all this? The use of LC
as a screen would still I think be a bit problematic because of their
vulnerabilities.

Anyone found some neat ways to take advantage of these list rules?

[joncleaves]

Note, John, that any mounted can interpenetrate LC. The mongols just do it
better.

-----Original Message-----
From: John <jjmurphy@...>
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 13:03:22 -0000
Subject: [WarriorRules] TACTICS Mongol Cavalry


What are some of the tactical ramifications of the Mongol Cavalry
rules? The 1.5 ranks is an obvious bonus, allowing them an advantage
(albeit dicey) in some likely cases of combat. And they can use
counters in an offensive manner without being limited to use in
response to a threat. But what about the interpenetration rules? The
difference being they are not disordered by interpenetrating a moving
unit or by being themselves interpenetrated.

Does this facilitate having an HC unit behind an LC unit now? Whereas
formerly this would force the LC to drop back elements or deviate in
an evade, risking getting caught, now they simply pass thru without
disordering themselves or the HC. And it also permits the pass-thru on
a LC recall move, normally blocked. The HC on the other hand can now
charge while the LC evades simultaneously without the LC being
disordered (the charging HC would still be disordered). If I have the
rules correct.

But what are the kinds of tactics enabled by all this? The use of LC
as a screen would still I think be a bit problematic because of their
vulnerabilities.

Anyone found some neat ways to take advantage of these list rules?







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[Mark Stone]

I've been playing around quite a bit with Mongols, and with armies that include
a Mongol contingent. So my comments below refer to list rules that apply across
lists, _not_ to those rules specific to just the Mongol list.

(1) Counter any time. This is a convenience, but hardly makes a big difference
in game play. A skilled opponent won't leave himself with a unit so out of
position that it can be neither countered nor retired conveniently.

(2) Interpenetration. This makes some difference, but a small difference. Jon is
fond of saying that the most frequent beginner mistake he observes is light cav
in the middle of the table. Ordinarily if you put light cav in the middle, it
is too easy to end up in a situation where you lack a clear path to evade or
recall back. The interpenetration rule alleviates this problem somewhat, and on
the pure Mongol lists that lack quality light infantry in any significant
numbers, you really need middle-deployed light cav to screen your heavier cav.
On lists where the Mongols are an adjunct, this rule makes very little
difference at all.

(3) Dismount. Well, on the one hand I think this is the big one. On the other
hand, I've yet to actually use it. I believe the key point is this: with the
current national trend of only one list variant per tournament, cav armies
become extra vulnerable to elephant armies. You need to take one variant that
plays to your strength, and with cav that typically means you're then
vulnerable to elephants. With the Mongols, however, you are in effect getting
two list variants out of one list, since, when faced with an elephant opponent
you can dismount some portion of your cav to get quality anti-elephant troops.
In fact, I'd go so far as to say this makes the Mongol list _the_ best list at
1200 points. Still, I have to regard that as more conjecture than fact at this
point since I've yet to find the right situation in which to dismount my Mongol
cavalry, despite playing several games in the last two months where I had every
intent of employing that tactic.


-Mark Stone

[Todd Kaeser]

Mark and all,

Having used Mongols at 1200 points at Historicon I have a few comments to add to
your usual excellent discussion.

I agree w/ your conclussion regarding the countering - I never felt the need to
do so.

The Interpenetration is a wonderful bonus. When using a cav army one always has
to be aware of LC in front of heavier armed cav and not having the space or gaps
to evade. This often doesn't allow the punch of the army to be there at the
right moment when trouble brews. Mongols can keep their punch closer and not
have these worries as much. I didn't find myself using it all that much, but
there was one time when my heavy cav was tight against my screening force and I
didn't have the concern that my lights were trapped.

Dismounting was outstanding. Vs Seleucid I was able to dismount 3 units of
(2E) HC into HI LTS,B,Sh and shot a 3 element elephant unit at long range into
halt. After a failed waver test the elephants went away. Even had they passed
they would have charged into 6 elements of bow (24 @ 1 - 36 [-2 combat])
nevermind the -2 vs. LTS. A good matchup for sure.

I also loved the 6x4 board. If this battle was fought on a 4x4 board then other
issues would have occured.

I truely enjoyed the Mongol list.

Todd K

Mark Stone <mark@...> wrote:
I've been playing around quite a bit with Mongols, and with armies that include
a Mongol contingent. So my comments below refer to list rules that apply across
lists, _not_ to those rules specific to just the Mongol list.

(1) Counter any time. This is a convenience, but hardly makes a big difference
in game play. A skilled opponent won't leave himself with a unit so out of
position that it can be neither countered nor retired conveniently.

(2) Interpenetration. This makes some difference, but a small difference. Jon is
fond of saying that the most frequent beginner mistake he observes is light cav
in the middle of the table. Ordinarily if you put light cav in the middle, it
is too easy to end up in a situation where you lack a clear path to evade or
recall back. The interpenetration rule alleviates this problem somewhat, and on
the pure Mongol lists that lack quality light infantry in any significant
numbers, you really need middle-deployed light cav to screen your heavier cav.
On lists where the Mongols are an adjunct, this rule makes very little
difference at all.

(3) Dismount. Well, on the one hand I think this is the big one. On the other
hand, I've yet to actually use it. I believe the key point is this: with the
current national trend of only one list variant per tournament, cav armies
become extra vulnerable to elephant armies. You need to take one variant that
plays to your strength, and with cav that typically means you're then
vulnerable to elephants. With the Mongols, however, you are in effect getting
two list variants out of one list, since, when faced with an elephant opponent
you can dismount some portion of your cav to get quality anti-elephant troops.
In fact, I'd go so far as to say this makes the Mongol list _the_ best list at
1200 points. Still, I have to regard that as more conjecture than fact at this
point since I've yet to find the right situation in which to dismount my Mongol
cavalry, despite playing several games in the last two months where I had every
intent of employing that tactic.


-Mark Stone



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