Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Mark Stone]

Jon,

A unit of 2 stands LHI and 2 stands LMI is in a 1x4 column, with the LHI in the
front two ranks. It is in skirmish formation. Does an opponent shooting
frontally at this unit shoot at LHI or LMI as the target troop type?


-Mark Stone

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 5/21/2004 11:07:49 Central Daylight Time,
mark@... writes:

Jon,

A unit of 2 stands LHI and 2 stands LMI is in a 1x4 column, with the LHI in
the
front two ranks. It is in skirmish formation. Does an opponent shooting
frontally at this unit shoot at LHI or LMI as the target troop type?


-Mark Stone>>

Most vulnerable - in this case LMI. See 8.92 second sentence.
J


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 5/22/2004 10:01:40 Central Daylight Time,
larryessick@... writes:

> Most vulnerable - in this case LMI. See 8.92 second sentence.

???

Jon, since foot only shoots from the second rank, exactly when are the
LMI getting to the front ranks in order to shoot?>>
What? Foot only shoots from the second rank?? What on earth are you
talking about? lol
Have you read 8.92?



If they get to the front ranks to shoot, how come they don't get to
count some portion of their figures as shooting???
What?? Mark's question was about the vulnerability of a target in skirmish.
I do not understand what you are asking.
J


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 5/22/2004 10:47:01 Central Daylight Time,
larryessick@... writes:

Jon, have you read section 8.7? How about this line: "Bodies in
skirmish formation may shoot with up to three ranks if mounted or two
if foot."

Maybe you should learn your own rules?>>
Maybe you should rethink how you act towards those who are trying to help
you.



Foot only shoots from two ranks when in skirmish. The third and
deeper ranks are moot.>>
For shooting, this is true.



8.92 says "If a target body is of mixed type, count it as the most
vulnerable if shooting at a body in skirmis formation...." The target
body is not of mixed type because the only ranks shooting are the
front two, which are both LHI.>>
That is incorrect. The target body is of a mixed type, shooting or not.



If the body is of mixed type then the LMI in ranks 3 and 4 must be
able to get to the front in order to shoot. If they do, then how many
of the 3d and 4th rank are shooting?>>
Ok, now we have moved beyond the actual rules question into a design one. I
must answer rules questions, but I reserve the right to get into designer
notes as I have time or inclination. And my inclination to talk designer's
notes with someone with your attitude is zero.
Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 5/22/2004 11:08:56 Central Daylight Time,
thresh1642@... writes:

I do think 8.92 is a “Barkerism� that’s going
to be fixed.>>
I'm sorry Todd, but you are incorrect about this. 8.92 is there for a
reason and I am fine with it.
What I find always amusing is shock about a rule from old 7th players
concerning a rule that we kept the same....lol
J






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 5/22/2004 11:20:26 Central Daylight Time,
edward_sturges@... writes:

In the original question Mark is saying that his LHI/LMI unit is a
shooting target (regardless of their own equipment and if they are
shooting or not). From my (limited) understanding under 8.92 the
target body must count as a mixed type because a body = a unit
(1.261) includes both the LHI and LMI (as you cannot sub-divide a
unit to get two bodies - unless you have detachments - a different
debate I think?).>>
True.



If the unit had not been in skirmish then the LHI would certainly
have counted as the target (a better protection but would not get the
benefit of the -2 factor for being in skirmish).>>
True.



Am I missing something here?>>
Not that I can see, Edward.
I think some people's confusion is coming from the assumption that because
as physically constructed out of figures on a game table, a mixed unit of LHI
and LMI can be set with all the LMI 'safely' out of the way in the very rear
of the formation. This is not how Warrior is designed - Warrior is a
formation-based game. You can't actually affect a man with a pike over 12-16
ranks
of men, but the effect of the formation leads to the .5 ranks of figures
fighting in the third and fourth rank of figures. 8.92 is similarly based.
I understand that some people would have designed their ancient game
differently, but it isn't like 8.92 sprung new out of whole cloth today...lol
Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 5/22/2004 12:01:04 Central Daylight Time,
larryessick@... writes:

Todd, I'm sure that you have written what Jon meant to say. He simply
ignored the whole context of the question, in particular the players
who look at 8.92 and 8.7 and cannot fathom how the LMI can ever get to
the ranks being shot -- and this was, in truth, the heart of the
original question.>>
I answered the question, Larry. As I have said many times on this list, I
cannot afford long designer's notes explanations every time I get asked a
question. I get to the direct answer as fast as i can and then it is a
judgment
call as to whether i have the time and/or there is a compelling need for
more. In Mark's case, I know he didn't need more. In your case, one you
shouldn't need more as you are an old 7th player and this is no different than
7th
and two, your deliberate antagonism sucked all the care factor out of me. You
cannot ask me if I have read my own rules and also expect you deserve a long
explanation as to the why of a rule. Not here.



Jon could have easily addressed the entire question and then said, as
you do, that although it is not intuitive, the literal application of
8.92 means that the "mixed" body counts as LMI when being shot at.>>
I find it quite intuitive. All applications of 8.92 mean that..lol And you
can hit your old 7th book at page 31. I didn't even change the wording....


As with much of what he writes, Jon doesn't take into account his
position as one of the FHE or the impact that has on newer (and even
older) players. He owes us more than derisiveness in his responses
and he owes us an understanding of the entire complexity of the rules
as they apply to any question.>>
I have now been called imperious, which I guess isn't so bad..lol and
derisive, which was true in your case. I have also been asked if I have read
my
own rulebook and told what i owe people. My skin is fairly thick (goes with
the head...lol) but my patience is not boundless....
Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Larry Essick]

> Most vulnerable - in this case LMI. See 8.92 second sentence.

???

Jon, since foot only shoots from the second rank, exactly when are the
LMI getting to the front ranks in order to shoot?

If they get to the front ranks to shoot, how come they don't get to
count some portion of their figures as shooting?

Larry

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 5/22/2004 14:06:41 Central Daylight Time,
larryessick@... writes:

If you want politeness then try being polite. And quit passing off
your viciousness with lol (a Jon Cleaves trademark).>>
One more time and you are gone.


BTW, Mark's situation would have been 2 ranks of LHI in 7th and not be
shot at as LMI. >>
Mark's situation would have been the same in 7th and the answer is the same.
J


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Larry Essick]

> What? Foot only shoots from the second rank?? What on earth are
you
> talking about? lol
> Have you read 8.92?

Jon, have you read section 8.7? How about this line: "Bodies in
skirmish formation may shoot with up to three ranks if mounted or two
if foot."

Maybe you should learn your own rules?

Foot only shoots from two ranks when in skirmish. The third and
deeper ranks are moot.

8.92 says "If a target body is of mixed type, count it as the most
vulnerable if shooting at a body in skirmis formation...." The target
body is not of mixed type because the only ranks shooting are the
front two, which are both LHI.

If the body is of mixed type then the LMI in ranks 3 and 4 must be
able to get to the front in order to shoot. If they do, then how many
of the 3d and 4th rank are shooting?

Well, the answer is that none are shooting because none ever get to
the front ranks to shoot -- since 8.7 says that only figures from the
front two ranks of foot get to the front to shoot.

So, the unit has only LHI shooting, it has only LHI at risk.

Larry

[Todd Schneider]

Larry,



Other than interpreting 8.92 wrong, your post is pretty spot on. I’ll get
my toes stepped on but here’s how I read it, and since Jon’s the guy who
showed me this, I am pretty sure he’s right as well. Here’s 8.92 as you
typed it:



8.92 says "If a target body is of mixed type, count it as the most
vulnerable if shooting at a body in skirmis formation...."



Take that sentence literally, as all rules in Warrior are meant to be taken.

I have a unit shotting at the Target Body.

The Target body is an LHI/LMI body in column. Is it mixed? Yes.

Is it in Skirmish? Yes.

Therefore, according to the above rule, because The target body is a mixed
unit in Skirmish formation, it counts as the most vulnerable WHEN BEING SHOT
AT. In this case, LMI.



The Target Body’s OWN shooting ability/rules does not reflect what IT
counts as target wise. If It was a column 1 x12, and it was 11E of LHI and
the last rank was LMI and it was in skirmish, it would still count as LMI.



But that’s just my 2 cents. I do think 8.92 is a “Barkerism” that’s going
to be fixed.



I’d say more but this isn’t the place for it…..



Todd



_____

From: larryessick@... [mailto:larryessick@...]
Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 10:46 AM
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] target type of skirmishers




> What? Foot only shoots from the second rank?? What on earth are
you
> talking about? lol
> Have you read 8.92?

Jon, have you read section 8.7? How about this line: "Bodies in
skirmish formation may shoot with up to three ranks if mounted or two
if foot."

Maybe you should learn your own rules?

Foot only shoots from two ranks when in skirmish. The third and
deeper ranks are moot.

8.92 says "If a target body is of mixed type, count it as the most
vulnerable if shooting at a body in skirmis formation...." The target
body is not of mixed type because the only ranks shooting are the
front two, which are both LHI.

If the body is of mixed type then the LMI in ranks 3 and 4 must be
able to get to the front in order to shoot. If they do, then how many
of the 3d and 4th rank are shooting?

Well, the answer is that none are shooting because none ever get to
the front ranks to shoot -- since 8.7 says that only figures from the
front two ranks of foot get to the front to shoot.

So, the unit has only LHI shooting, it has only LHI at risk.

Larry






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gentlemen

Mark's question was:

"Jon,

A unit of 2 stands LHI and 2 stands LMI is in a 1x4 column, with the
LHI in the front two ranks. It is in skirmish formation. Does an
opponent shooting frontally at this unit shoot at LHI or LMI as the
target troop type?

-Mark Stone"

Larry's point was

> 8.92 says "If a target body is of mixed type, count it as the most
> vulnerable if shooting at a body in skirmis formation...." The
target
> body is not of mixed type because the only ranks shooting are the
> front two, which are both LHI.
>
> If the body is of mixed type then the LMI in ranks 3 and 4 must be
> able to get to the front in order to shoot. If they do, then how
many
> of the 3d and 4th rank are shooting?
>
> Well, the answer is that none are shooting because none ever get to
> the front ranks to shoot -- since 8.7 says that only figures from
the
> front two ranks of foot get to the front to shoot.
>
> So, the unit has only LHI shooting, it has only LHI at risk.
>
> Larry

In the original question Mark is saying that his LHI/LMI unit is a
shooting target (regardless of their own equipment and if they are
shooting or not). From my (limited) understanding under 8.92 the
target body must count as a mixed type because a body = a unit
(1.261) includes both the LHI and LMI (as you cannot sub-divide a
unit to get two bodies - unless you have detachments - a different
debate I think?).

If the unit had not been in skirmish then the LHI would certainly
have counted as the target (a better protection but would not get the
benefit of the -2 factor for being in skirmish).

Am I missing something here?

Edward

[Todd Schneider]

Ah, my mistake…I don’t have a copy of the 7th rules….but I have spent the
morning reading the DBMM list, so I have “Barkerisms” running rampant this
morning.



Todd

_____

From: JonCleaves@... [mailto:JonCleaves@...]
Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 11:18 AM
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] target type of skirmishers



In a message dated 5/22/2004 11:08:56 Central Daylight Time,
thresh1642@... writes:

I do think 8.92 is a “Barkerism” that’s going
to be fixed.>>
I'm sorry Todd, but you are incorrect about this. 8.92 is there for a
reason and I am fine with it.
What I find always amusing is shock about a rule from old 7th players
concerning a rule that we kept the same....lol
J






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Larry Essick]

> Other than interpreting 8.92 wrong, your post is pretty spot on.

:-)

Todd, I'm sure that you have written what Jon meant to say. He simply
ignored the whole context of the question, in particular the players
who look at 8.92 and 8.7 and cannot fathom how the LMI can ever get to
the ranks being shot -- and this was, in truth, the heart of the
original question.

Jon could have easily addressed the entire question and then said, as
you do, that although it is not intuitive, the literal application of
8.92 means that the "mixed" body counts as LMI when being shot at.

As is the norm for Jon, however, he chose to be imperious and to pass
it off with inappropriate laughter (lol).

As with much of what he writes, Jon doesn't take into account his
position as one of the FHE or the impact that has on newer (and even
older) players. He owes us more than derisiveness in his responses
and he owes us an understanding of the entire complexity of the rules
as they apply to any question.

That is necessary in order to explain the answers he gives.

Larry

[Larry Essick]

> In your case, one you
> shouldn't need more as you are an old 7th player and this is no
different than 7th
> and two, your deliberate antagonism sucked all the care factor out
of me. You
> cannot ask me if I have read my own rules and also expect you
deserve a long
> explanation as to the why of a rule. Not here.

Oh horse manure Jon. You start the antagonism with "have you read the
rules" and you bypass the entire reason for misunderstanding the rules
in the first place. Then you get your panties in a wad when someone
quotes it back at you. If you aren't big enough to take it then don't
dish it out.

Don't blame me for being antagonistic when it is you who starts down
that road.

If you want politeness then try being polite. And quit passing off
your viciousness with lol (a Jon Cleaves trademark).

You don't need to give long explanations. You do need to give enough
explanation to explain. That is why it is called an explanation.

BTW, Mark's situation would have been 2 ranks of LHI in 7th and not be
shot at as LMI. Hence the need to address the *entire* question.

Larry