Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[joncleaves]

Ok, if we’re gonna debate controversial subjects, let’s at least do one that
might result in change! Lol

Seriously, we need to change the way we present terrain at our public events.
In my own inimitable blunt manner, let me state that our terrain sucks. I am
speaking specifically of Hcon/Cold Wars, but also I have not been in a regional
event where it was any better. If some of you are out there fighting the good
fight and putting on events with classy terrain, then lord bless you and please
post some pictures so you can get credit for your hard work and lead us all by
example.

I would like us to get into a discussion about how to fix this issue. Many
ideas are on the table. What is not on the table is the status quo. However we
fix this, it is not our intent that it ends up with folded felt and cloth hills.
Repeated discussions of this and handing out awards for good terrain have done
nothing to improve the situation, so other types of measures are in order.
I’d like to hear thoughts on measures that would actually work to get us to
good looking and realistic terrain.

Here’s the goals:

1. Improve the quality of terrain on our tables to be at least as good as that
found in WAB games and other convention events.
2. Remove the ability of the player to use the terrain generation system to
place ‘gamey’ terrain.

By #2 I mean that a guy who places a perfectly rectangular woods because that
provides him the best micrometer advantage in the game is doing something I find
personally heinous but more importantly both reflects sub-optimally on the
Warrior hobby as well as making for a terrible looking table. Ditto for someone
who brings a piece of felt for a brush feature and folds it in half because its
size does not suit his current needs.

I don’t think this can be self-policed. I think we need a standard in 14.0
that helps fix this. I myself am for pre-set terrain in tourneys. But our
customers largely prefer the 14.3 method, which does indeed have the advantage
of the tourney organizer not needing 16-20 tables of terrain (or more).

That means, though, that players have to bring their own and it is indeed hard
to bring every conceivable piece that one could want once one found out
opponent/army. But we HAVE to change – that isn’t negotiable. Our tables
look like crap and it is high time we got it fixed.

So, here’s my thoughts to stir the pot:

1. Terrain features cannot be made from felt or cloth. Flocked and/or painted
card/gatorboard/roofing paper is the standard. Store bought
‘worldmaker’-like stuff is totally ok.
2. Hills must be three dimensional and must be made in line with 12.0.
Flocked.
3. Woods must have trees. Painted/modeled or store bought. Foliage.
4. Villages must have buildings/tents/huts of some appropriate sort. Painted.
5. Marshes have lichen/weeds, rocky has rocks.

Tourney organizer can remove any terrain feature from any table that does not
meet this standard.

Tourney organizer ought to have as much correctly done ‘common terrain’
available for use as possible. Maybe something to spend local club/NASAMW funds
on.

Ok, have at me.

Remember, we are looking for good ideas and the status quo is the only thing off
the table.

Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Mike Bard]

We up here in civilization (aka Canada) are working on the problem.

I will admit that the forest situation is not yet perfect, but we have dealt
with the hill and brush problem. Hills are all flocked and/or painted
(rocks). Brush consists of felt with small markers of brush on them OR
burlap painted in patterns. Forests are being worked on (at least they're
not square or perfectly round) but we're still looking for a good tree
solution.

Note: There are all the pictures we have online. Some are a bit on the
embarassing side, but we are working on the problem. Certain persons (Chris
Ryall) tend to like square terrain. We have expressed our opinion of this.

All the pictures currently online are below. For the Panda2005 page scroll
down past the 40k stuff to get to the warrior stuff.

http://www.deep-strike.com/events/panda2005.htm
http://www.deep-strike.com/events/alexandermegabattle.htm
http://www.deep-strike.com/events/warriorminitournament2004.htm
http://www.deep-strike.com/events/migswarrior.htm
http://www.deep-strike.com/events/christianbirthdaywarrior.htm

Some notes on construction.

Most of the hills were purchased at Cold Wars/Historicon. I believe that
they are constructued of a frame of wood around foam insulation with some
kind of spackle on top. I have been experimenting with hill construction
with mixed success:

1. Taking a container of sand, hollowing out a space, sticking in some cedar
bark landscaping material, and pouring in Hydrocal (a far less soft version
of plaster but brittle). This gives an interesting hill, though the bark
was mostly covered, that weighs about 20 pounds.
2. Cutting out an irregular shape in masonite. Glueing on two layers of 1"
insulation foam (the dense stuff). Carving it roughly to shape with a knife
and then sanding it smooth. Trimming cedar back to fit along one side for
"rocks" and glueing it to the side of the hill. Filling the gap with
spackle material. Flocking and painting the result. It comes out very
nice -- you can see it in the AlexanderMegaBattle pictures.

For forest/brush terrain we do the following:

1a. Old base - pieces of irregularly cut felt (with one notable exception)
or other material.
1b. New base - pieces of irregularly cut burlap painted in various natural
shades.

2a. "Brush markers" are put on the base to indicate that it is brush. These
consist of either round, rectangular, or irregularly shapped bases of
various sizes (usually fairly small) with rocks, flocking, upright grass,
and the odd small trunk or small tree. These are scattered over the terrain
and can be moved as required.
2b. "Forest markers" are, of course, trees, but we have yet to find a good
looking tree that is tough (resistant to damage) yet looks good. The search
continues!

For Urban/Built Up areas we do the following:

1. Base of rectangular gray felt. We want it to be rectangular to represent
the artificial nature of the BUA
2. Buildings scattered about the terrain. The current buildings we have for
28mm are a bunch of purchased medieval buildings. I don't know the
manufacturer. Personally I prefer buildings 1 scale smaller and am going to
make some classical buildings this summer as NOBODY seems to manufacture
any. If anybody knows somebody who does, I'd definitely be interested in
hearing about them.

For Orchards/Vineyards etc.

We have a bunch of gorgeous pieces of these purchased at Codl
Wars/Historicon from some "Barb's Bunkers". We tend to save those for
special events as they aren't that useful in a typical tournament game.

For Major Water Feature

Current we use the typical blue felt. We do plan to construct a proper
terrain piece (in two halves) with the water blue with transparent speckle
for waves and a sculpted shoreline. One of the persons who introduced me to
WRG (6th/7th) back in the early 80s in Waterloo, Ontario (if any of you are
out there I wouldn't mind getting your names and chatting as I can't
remember any of your names anymore) had a gorgeious major water feature done
in this manner.

For Minor Water Feature

Two methods are currently used, both bought terrain. One is the "rubber
river" which consists of thin pieces of textured rubber painted with river
and flocked edges that can be joined up to form a river. The second is the
"clay creek" which consists of a large number of cast resin river sections
about 6" long either straight or curved that join up to form a river.

Michael Bard
That Greek Hoplite Guy who...
1. Won't be running Platea since he can't get to ColdWars before Friday, and
the only time to run it is Thursday. Hopefully Historicon
2. Will be playing Han Chinese in the doubles to help a friend. Greeks in
the mini though!!!

[Tim Grimmett]

Jon --

I hear you and admit to being a guilty bastard in bringing minimalist
kindergarden-quality terrain to conventions.

But if I have stands of trees or lichen stuff sitting on top of non-square-ish
felt how am I not meeting your intent?

Tim

JonCleaves@... wrote:


1. Terrain features cannot be made from felt or cloth. Flocked and/or painted
card/gatorboard/roofing paper is the standard. Store bought
‘worldmaker’-like stuff is totally ok.
2. Hills must be three dimensional and must be made in line with 12.0.
Flocked.
3. Woods must have trees. Painted/modeled or store bought. Foliage.
4. Villages must have buildings/tents/huts of some appropriate sort. Painted.
5. Marshes have lichen/weeds, rocky has rocks.



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Mike Turner]

For forests/woods I would expand on the brush idea. Use gator board
or roofing paper to make the appropriate "base", sculpted/painted,
then separate pieces of lichen/brush are palce on the base, in the
case of woods, these can be individually based trees. Most woods
would only need 4-6 "trees" placed on the base. When a unit moves
into these pieces of terrain, simply move the bushes or trees around
the base to fit the unit.

Mike



--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, JonCleaves@a... wrote:
>
> Ok, if we’re gonna debate controversial subjects, let’s at
least do one that might result in change! Lol
>
> Seriously, we need to change the way we present terrain at our
public events. In my own inimitable blunt manner, let me state that
our terrain sucks. I am speaking specifically of Hcon/Cold Wars, but
also I have not been in a regional event where it was any better. If
some of you are out there fighting the good fight and putting on
events with classy terrain, then lord bless you and please post some
pictures so you can get credit for your hard work and lead us all by
example.
>
> I would like us to get into a discussion about how to fix this
issue. Many ideas are on the table. What is not on the table is the
status quo. However we fix this, it is not our intent that it ends
up with folded felt and cloth hills. Repeated discussions of this
and handing out awards for good terrain have done nothing to improve
the situation, so other types of measures are in order. I’d like
to hear thoughts on measures that would actually work to get us to
good looking and realistic terrain.
>
> Here’s the goals:
>
> 1. Improve the quality of terrain on our tables to be at least as
good as that found in WAB games and other convention events.
> 2. Remove the ability of the player to use the terrain generation
system to place ‘gamey’ terrain.
>
> By #2 I mean that a guy who places a perfectly rectangular woods
because that provides him the best micrometer advantage in the game
is doing something I find personally heinous but more importantly
both reflects sub-optimally on the Warrior hobby as well as making
for a terrible looking table. Ditto for someone who brings a piece
of felt for a brush feature and folds it in half because its size
does not suit his current needs.
>
> I don’t think this can be self-policed. I think we need a
standard in 14.0 that helps fix this. I myself am for pre-set
terrain in tourneys. But our customers largely prefer the 14.3
method, which does indeed have the advantage of the tourney organizer
not needing 16-20 tables of terrain (or more).
>
> That means, though, that players have to bring their own and it is
indeed hard to bring every conceivable piece that one could want once
one found out opponent/army. But we HAVE to change â€" that isn’t
negotiable. Our tables look like crap and it is high time we got it
fixed.
>
> So, here’s my thoughts to stir the pot:
>
> 1. Terrain features cannot be made from felt or cloth. Flocked
and/or painted card/gatorboard/roofing paper is the standard. Store
bought ‘worldmaker’-like stuff is totally ok.
> 2. Hills must be three dimensional and must be made in line with
12.0. Flocked.
> 3. Woods must have trees. Painted/modeled or store bought.
Foliage.
> 4. Villages must have buildings/tents/huts of some appropriate
sort. Painted.
> 5. Marshes have lichen/weeds, rocky has rocks.
>
> Tourney organizer can remove any terrain feature from any table
that does not meet this standard.
>
> Tourney organizer ought to have as much correctly done ‘common
terrain’ available for use as possible. Maybe something to spend
local club/NASAMW funds on.
>
> Ok, have at me.
>
> Remember, we are looking for good ideas and the status quo is the
only thing off the table.
>
> Jon
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Mike Turner]

Tim,
I think you are very close to Jon's intent, you are at least "adding"
something to the "base" that outlines the terrain feature.
I see it as two parts, the "base" forming the terrain features space,
and the three dimensional portion added to it, ie. trees, shrubs, etc.

Mike

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Tim Grimmett <grimmetttim@y...>
wrote:
> Jon --
>
> I hear you and admit to being a guilty bastard in bringing
minimalist kindergarden-quality terrain to conventions.
>
> But if I have stands of trees or lichen stuff sitting on top of non-
square-ish felt how am I not meeting your intent?
>
> Tim
>
> JonCleaves@a... wrote:
>
>
> 1. Terrain features cannot be made from felt or cloth. Flocked
and/or painted card/gatorboard/roofing paper is the standard. Store
bought ‘worldmaker’-like stuff is totally ok.
> 2. Hills must be three dimensional and must be made in line with
12.0. Flocked.
> 3. Woods must have trees. Painted/modeled or store bought.
Foliage.
> 4. Villages must have buildings/tents/huts of some appropriate
sort. Painted.
> 5. Marshes have lichen/weeds, rocky has rocks.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

Just so folks know, I am very much into sharing of ideas on how to make terrain
here. But what I am looking for is methods to get players to use good terrain
in games.

J

-----Original Message-----
From: turner1118 <Turnerm@...>
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 17:15:17 -0000
Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: Terrain in Warrior Events




For forests/woods I would expand on the brush idea. Use gator board
or roofing paper to make the appropriate "base", sculpted/painted,
then separate pieces of lichen/brush are palce on the base, in the
case of woods, these can be individually based trees. Most woods
would only need 4-6 "trees" placed on the base. When a unit moves
into these pieces of terrain, simply move the bushes or trees around
the base to fit the unit.

Mike



--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, JonCleaves@a... wrote:
>
> Ok, if we’re gonna debate controversial subjects, let’s at
least do one that might result in change! Lol
>
> Seriously, we need to change the way we present terrain at our
public events. In my own inimitable blunt manner, let me state that
our terrain sucks. I am speaking specifically of Hcon/Cold Wars, but
also I have not been in a regional event where it was any better. If
some of you are out there fighting the good fight and putting on
events with classy terrain, then lord bless you and please post some
pictures so you can get credit for your hard work and lead us all by
example.
>
> I would like us to get into a discussion about how to fix this
issue. Many ideas are on the table. What is not on the table is the
status quo. However we fix this, it is not our intent that it ends
up with folded felt and cloth hills. Repeated discussions of this
and handing out awards for good terrain have done nothing to improve
the situation, so other types of measures are in order. I’d like
to hear thoughts on measures that would actually work to get us to
good looking and realistic terrain.
>
> Here’s the goals:
>
> 1. Improve the quality of terrain on our tables to be at least as
good as that found in WAB games and other convention events.
> 2. Remove the ability of the player to use the terrain generation
system to place ‘gamey’ terrain.
>
> By #2 I mean that a guy who places a perfectly rectangular woods
because that provides him the best micrometer advantage in the game
is doing something I find personally heinous but more importantly
both reflects sub-optimally on the Warrior hobby as well as making
for a terrible looking table. Ditto for someone who brings a piece
of felt for a brush feature and folds it in half because its size
does not suit his current needs.
>
> I don’t think this can be self-policed. I think we need a
standard in 14.0 that helps fix this. I myself am for pre-set
terrain in tourneys. But our customers largely prefer the 14.3
method, which does indeed have the advantage of the tourney organizer
not needing 16-20 tables of terrain (or more).
>
> That means, though, that players have to bring their own and it is
indeed hard to bring every conceivable piece that one could want once
one found out opponent/army. But we HAVE to change â€" that isn’t
negotiable. Our tables look like crap and it is high time we got it
fixed.
>
> So, here’s my thoughts to stir the pot:
>
> 1. Terrain features cannot be made from felt or cloth. Flocked
and/or painted card/gatorboard/roofing paper is the standard. Store
bought ‘worldmaker’-like stuff is totally ok.
> 2. Hills must be three dimensional and must be made in line with
12.0. Flocked.
> 3. Woods must have trees. Painted/modeled or store bought.
Foliage.
> 4. Villages must have buildings/tents/huts of some appropriate
sort. Painted.
> 5. Marshes have lichen/weeds, rocky has rocks.
>
> Tourney organizer can remove any terrain feature from any table
that does not meet this standard.
>
> Tourney organizer ought to have as much correctly done ‘common
terrain’ available for use as possible. Maybe something to spend
local club/NASAMW funds on.
>
> Ok, have at me.
>
> Remember, we are looking for good ideas and the status quo is the
only thing off the table.
>
> Jon
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






Yahoo! Groups Links






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Frank Gilson]

I am certainly guilty of bad terrain, either my own or borrowed.

If you want to improve terrain at events, you have to overcome a
particular fact:
Very few people have and transport good terrain. Such higher quality
terrain takes more time, money, and attention to acquire and
maintain. Transporting it is significantly more difficult than
folding up felt.

Personally, I will not be able to pack up and transport terrain
across country. Thus, the tournament organizers had better have all
the terrain I need at the event for me.

If the tournament organizers are willing to do this, then multiply
the requirement by all the people who don't have or bring terrain.
The fact that the organizers would have terrain is a reason for many
people not to have their own, and to continue to use felt, etc., in
home games.

Some players will use 'gamesmanship', however heinous, to make high
quality custom shaped features (square woods). So, will you have a
terrain qualification board that reviews player terrain before each
event?

I love the custom terrain placement rules in Warrior. It makes me
feel as though I have some control over the battlefield conditions.

Note also that given the nature of Warrior figures and their basing,
that some terrain (hills typically) doesn't work out too well, with
bases falling over or not fitting. Also, given such basing, trees or
other terrain interruptions need to be moveable so that units can
move and remain together as the game requires.

These challenges can be overcome, but it will require a massive
community effort of no small expense.

Frank Gilson

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, JonCleaves@a... wrote:
>
> Ok, if we’re gonna debate controversial subjects, let’s at
least do one that might result in change! Lol
>
> Seriously, we need to change the way we present terrain at our
public events. In my own inimitable blunt manner, let me state that
our terrain sucks. I am speaking specifically of Hcon/Cold Wars,
but also I have not been in a regional event where it was any
better. If some of you are out there fighting the good fight and
putting on events with classy terrain, then lord bless you and
please post some pictures so you can get credit for your hard work
and lead us all by example.
>
> I would like us to get into a discussion about how to fix this
issue. Many ideas are on the table. What is not on the table is
the status quo. However we fix this, it is not our intent that it
ends up with folded felt and cloth hills. Repeated discussions of
this and handing out awards for good terrain have done nothing to
improve the situation, so other types of measures are in order.
I’d like to hear thoughts on measures that would actually work to
get us to good looking and realistic terrain.
>
> Here’s the goals:
>
> 1. Improve the quality of terrain on our tables to be at least as
good as that found in WAB games and other convention events.
> 2. Remove the ability of the player to use the terrain generation
system to place ‘gamey’ terrain.
>
> By #2 I mean that a guy who places a perfectly rectangular woods
because that provides him the best micrometer advantage in the game
is doing something I find personally heinous but more importantly
both reflects sub-optimally on the Warrior hobby as well as making
for a terrible looking table. Ditto for someone who brings a piece
of felt for a brush feature and folds it in half because its size
does not suit his current needs.
>
> I don’t think this can be self-policed. I think we need a
standard in 14.0 that helps fix this. I myself am for pre-set
terrain in tourneys. But our customers largely prefer the 14.3
method, which does indeed have the advantage of the tourney
organizer not needing 16-20 tables of terrain (or more).
>
> That means, though, that players have to bring their own and it is
indeed hard to bring every conceivable piece that one could want
once one found out opponent/army. But we HAVE to change â€" that
isn’t negotiable. Our tables look like crap and it is high time
we got it fixed.
>
> So, here’s my thoughts to stir the pot:
>
> 1. Terrain features cannot be made from felt or cloth. Flocked
and/or painted card/gatorboard/roofing paper is the standard. Store
bought ‘worldmaker’-like stuff is totally ok.
> 2. Hills must be three dimensional and must be made in line with
12.0. Flocked.
> 3. Woods must have trees. Painted/modeled or store bought.
Foliage.
> 4. Villages must have buildings/tents/huts of some appropriate
sort. Painted.
> 5. Marshes have lichen/weeds, rocky has rocks.
>
> Tourney organizer can remove any terrain feature from any table
that does not meet this standard.
>
> Tourney organizer ought to have as much correctly done ‘common
terrain’ available for use as possible. Maybe something to spend
local club/NASAMW funds on.
>
> Ok, have at me.
>
> Remember, we are looking for good ideas and the status quo is the
only thing off the table.
>
> Jon
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Frank Gilson]

Some people will build and bring their own terrain, they will be in
the minority. So, you can:

a) Require players to have quality terrain if they wish to place it.
That imposes a mandatory time, money, and transport space
requirement on players that is likely unfair.

b) Have tournament organizers maintain a local set of terrain likely
sufficient to cover all needs.
Hmmm, off the cuff calculations would require that NASAMW maintain
for Warrior players for an event like Historicon something like 1000
total terrain features to cover the type and size range that players
may draw from. That's something like 80 cubic feet of terrain. That
is about two pickup truck beds full of the stuff, or one large van.

These two positions seem to be the extremes of how quality terrain
would appear at Warrior events. A compromise is the likely real
world results such that:

c) Players are encouraged to bring the terrain that they can,
according to some defined minimum standards (text plus take digital
pictures, make them available online and as paper handouts.)
Tournament organizers state that they will have 'some' terrain
available for loan. If you bring no terrain, you are at the mercy of
what's available...which is likely to be a subset of the types and
sizes/shapes that you want.

Frank

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, JonCleaves@a... wrote:
> Just so folks know, I am very much into sharing of ideas on how to
make terrain here. But what I am looking for is methods to get
players to use good terrain in games.
>
> J
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: turner1118 <Turnerm@l...>
> To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 17:15:17 -0000
> Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: Terrain in Warrior Events
>
>
>
>
> For forests/woods I would expand on the brush idea. Use gator
board
> or roofing paper to make the appropriate "base", sculpted/painted,
> then separate pieces of lichen/brush are palce on the base, in the
> case of woods, these can be individually based trees. Most woods
> would only need 4-6 "trees" placed on the base. When a unit moves
> into these pieces of terrain, simply move the bushes or trees
around
> the base to fit the unit.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, JonCleaves@a... wrote:
> >
> > Ok, if we’re gonna debate controversial subjects, letâ
€™s at
> least do one that might result in change! Lol
> >
> > Seriously, we need to change the way we present terrain at our
> public events. In my own inimitable blunt manner, let me state
that
> our terrain sucks. I am speaking specifically of Hcon/Cold Wars,
but
> also I have not been in a regional event where it was any better.
If
> some of you are out there fighting the good fight and putting on
> events with classy terrain, then lord bless you and please post
some
> pictures so you can get credit for your hard work and lead us all
by
> example.
> >
> > I would like us to get into a discussion about how to fix this
> issue. Many ideas are on the table. What is not on the table is
the
> status quo. However we fix this, it is not our intent that it
ends
> up with folded felt and cloth hills. Repeated discussions of this
> and handing out awards for good terrain have done nothing to
improve
> the situation, so other types of measures are in order. I’
d like
> to hear thoughts on measures that would actually work to get us to
> good looking and realistic terrain.
> >
> > Here’s the goals:
> >
> > 1. Improve the quality of terrain on our tables to be at least
as
> good as that found in WAB games and other convention events.
> > 2. Remove the ability of the player to use the terrain
generation
> system to place ‘gamey’ terrain.
> >
> > By #2 I mean that a guy who places a perfectly rectangular woods
> because that provides him the best micrometer advantage in the
game
> is doing something I find personally heinous but more importantly
> both reflects sub-optimally on the Warrior hobby as well as making
> for a terrible looking table. Ditto for someone who brings a
piece
> of felt for a brush feature and folds it in half because its size
> does not suit his current needs.
> >
> > I don’t think this can be self-policed. I think we need
a
> standard in 14.0 that helps fix this. I myself am for pre-set
> terrain in tourneys. But our customers largely prefer the 14.3
> method, which does indeed have the advantage of the tourney
organizer
> not needing 16-20 tables of terrain (or more).
> >
> > That means, though, that players have to bring their own and it
is
> indeed hard to bring every conceivable piece that one could want
once
> one found out opponent/army. But we HAVE to change â€" that
isn’t
> negotiable. Our tables look like crap and it is high time we got
it
> fixed.
> >
> > So, here’s my thoughts to stir the pot:
> >
> > 1. Terrain features cannot be made from felt or cloth. Flocked
> and/or painted card/gatorboard/roofing paper is the standard.
Store
> bought ‘worldmaker’-like stuff is totally ok.
> > 2. Hills must be three dimensional and must be made in line
with
> 12.0. Flocked.
> > 3. Woods must have trees. Painted/modeled or store bought.
> Foliage.
> > 4. Villages must have buildings/tents/huts of some appropriate
> sort. Painted.
> > 5. Marshes have lichen/weeds, rocky has rocks.
> >
> > Tourney organizer can remove any terrain feature from any table
> that does not meet this standard.
> >
> > Tourney organizer ought to have as much correctly done â
€˜common
> terrain’ available for use as possible. Maybe something to
spend
> local club/NASAMW funds on.
> >
> > Ok, have at me.
> >
> > Remember, we are looking for good ideas and the status quo is
the
> only thing off the table.
> >
> > Jon
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joncleaves]

I think C is closest to my thoughts. Clearly transport is a huge issue. but
heck, guys I know *wink* arrange for entire loaner armies to play in these
events - surely they can find some friend to bring them a couple of nice
hills.....

I definitely like the idea of the pre-established standards complete with
digital photos. Also the idea that if you don't bring your own you are 'at the
mercy' of what's available.

J

-----Original Message-----
From: Frank Gilson <franktrevorgilson@...>
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 18:22:59 -0000
Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: Terrain in Warrior Events




Some people will build and bring their own terrain, they will be in
the minority. So, you can:

a) Require players to have quality terrain if they wish to place it.
That imposes a mandatory time, money, and transport space
requirement on players that is likely unfair.

b) Have tournament organizers maintain a local set of terrain likely
sufficient to cover all needs.
Hmmm, off the cuff calculations would require that NASAMW maintain
for Warrior players for an event like Historicon something like 1000
total terrain features to cover the type and size range that players
may draw from. That's something like 80 cubic feet of terrain. That
is about two pickup truck beds full of the stuff, or one large van.

These two positions seem to be the extremes of how quality terrain
would appear at Warrior events. A compromise is the likely real
world results such that:

c) Players are encouraged to bring the terrain that they can,
according to some defined minimum standards (text plus take digital
pictures, make them available online and as paper handouts.)
Tournament organizers state that they will have 'some' terrain
available for loan. If you bring no terrain, you are at the mercy of
what's available...which is likely to be a subset of the types and
sizes/shapes that you want.

Frank

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, JonCleaves@a... wrote:
> Just so folks know, I am very much into sharing of ideas on how to
make terrain here. But what I am looking for is methods to get
players to use good terrain in games.
>
> J
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: turner1118 <Turnerm@l...>
> To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 17:15:17 -0000
> Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: Terrain in Warrior Events
>
>
>
>
> For forests/woods I would expand on the brush idea. Use gator
board
> or roofing paper to make the appropriate "base", sculpted/painted,
> then separate pieces of lichen/brush are palce on the base, in the
> case of woods, these can be individually based trees. Most woods
> would only need 4-6 "trees" placed on the base. When a unit moves
> into these pieces of terrain, simply move the bushes or trees
around
> the base to fit the unit.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, JonCleaves@a... wrote:
> >
> > Ok, if we’re gonna debate controversial subjects, letâ
€™s at
> least do one that might result in change! Lol
> >
> > Seriously, we need to change the way we present terrain at our
> public events. In my own inimitable blunt manner, let me state
that
> our terrain sucks. I am speaking specifically of Hcon/Cold Wars,
but
> also I have not been in a regional event where it was any better.
If
> some of you are out there fighting the good fight and putting on
> events with classy terrain, then lord bless you and please post
some
> pictures so you can get credit for your hard work and lead us all
by
> example.
> >
> > I would like us to get into a discussion about how to fix this
> issue. Many ideas are on the table. What is not on the table is
the
> status quo. However we fix this, it is not our intent that it
ends
> up with folded felt and cloth hills. Repeated discussions of this
> and handing out awards for good terrain have done nothing to
improve
> the situation, so other types of measures are in order. I’
d like
> to hear thoughts on measures that would actually work to get us to
> good looking and realistic terrain.
> >
> > Here’s the goals:
> >
> > 1. Improve the quality of terrain on our tables to be at least
as
> good as that found in WAB games and other convention events.
> > 2. Remove the ability of the player to use the terrain
generation
> system to place ‘gamey’ terrain.
> >
> > By #2 I mean that a guy who places a perfectly rectangular woods
> because that provides him the best micrometer advantage in the
game
> is doing something I find personally heinous but more importantly
> both reflects sub-optimally on the Warrior hobby as well as making
> for a terrible looking table. Ditto for someone who brings a
piece
> of felt for a brush feature and folds it in half because its size
> does not suit his current needs.
> >
> > I don’t think this can be self-policed. I think we need
a
> standard in 14.0 that helps fix this. I myself am for pre-set
> terrain in tourneys. But our customers largely prefer the 14.3
> method, which does indeed have the advantage of the tourney
organizer
> not needing 16-20 tables of terrain (or more).
> >
> > That means, though, that players have to bring their own and it
is
> indeed hard to bring every conceivable piece that one could want
once
> one found out opponent/army. But we HAVE to change â€" that
isn’t
> negotiable. Our tables look like crap and it is high time we got
it
> fixed.
> >
> > So, here’s my thoughts to stir the pot:
> >
> > 1. Terrain features cannot be made from felt or cloth. Flocked
> and/or painted card/gatorboard/roofing paper is the standard.
Store
> bought ‘worldmaker’-like stuff is totally ok.
> > 2. Hills must be three dimensional and must be made in line
with
> 12.0. Flocked.
> > 3. Woods must have trees. Painted/modeled or store bought.
> Foliage.
> > 4. Villages must have buildings/tents/huts of some appropriate
> sort. Painted.
> > 5. Marshes have lichen/weeds, rocky has rocks.
> >
> > Tourney organizer can remove any terrain feature from any table
> that does not meet this standard.
> >
> > Tourney organizer ought to have as much correctly done â
€˜common
> terrain’ available for use as possible. Maybe something to
spend
> local club/NASAMW funds on.
> >
> > Ok, have at me.
> >
> > Remember, we are looking for good ideas and the status quo is
the
> only thing off the table.
> >
> > Jon
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






Yahoo! Groups Links






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Mark Stone]

Why people cannot take the time and effort to have decent-looking terrain is a
mystery to me. I made the decision over a year ago -- in response to an earlier
post by Jon on this topic -- to upgrade the quality of my terrain. I'll put some
pictures online to show what I've got; I may be able to do this later today.

Now, let me qualify my complaint with this:
- I play 25mm
- I fly 3000 miles to get to Cold Wars and Historicon
- I have very little artistic talent

So, if you have some excuse not covered by the above, I'd be happy to hear it.
Otherwise, you should have decent terrain and bring it with you.

Having said that, I realize that Frank is right, and that most people _still_
won't make and bring decent-looking terrain. I have one caveat, and a
suggestion.

First the caveat: I am _absolutely_ opposed to dispensing with the current
feature-choosing system for tournament. In a campaign, grand tactical level
maneuver would determine where and on what terrain a battle took place. The
feature-choosing system is the only thing in a tournament context we have for
capturing, however abstractly, that grand tactical element of battle.

Furthermore, going to preset terrain would inevitably disadvantage some armies
(which ones would depend on the mix of terrain). Anything that makes fewer
armies tournament viable is a _bad_ thing.

So, what to do?

It has been my observation that most terrain goes unused most of the time at
tournaments. I'm not opposed to loaning out my terrain, and in fact I do this
with friends (*ahem* Frank *ahem*) all the time. Why not extend that to simply
make it a tournament policy?

I would be happy with the following:
(1) All terrain to be used at a major national tournament (i.e. Cold Wars,
Historicon) must pass inspection. If the tournament organizers and/or umpire
don't think a particular piece meets the standard, then that piece cannot be
used.

(2) Designate a table for the "terrain pool" where all acceptable terrain is
placed. In each tournament round each player, of course, gets dibs on the
terrain they brought, but thereafter anyone who didn't bring terrain can have
their pick of any remaining terrain. If no piece is available that fits the
size and type they are looking for, too bad. Let that be a lesson to them for
next tournament.


-Mark Stone

[Mike Turner]

I think for Cold Wars and/or Historicon, some terrain that meets
the "standards" could be maintained or made available, but I wouldn't
expect the tournament organizer to have to maintain ALL types of
terrain, if a player wanted something less common, say a vineyard,
etc. then the individual could provide it themselves or go without.

But say hills, woods, brush, swamp, could these be available and
maintained by NASAMW? don't know?

Now a problem situation, I design a "nice" piece of terrain and my
opponent through placing opens, roads, whatever, makes it near
impossible to place this "nice" piece of terrain. If it had been a
piece of felt, I might have been able to fold a corner up and still
fit my terrain in. So, if I make a nice piece of terrain, within the
proscribed measurement limits of Warrior, could I miss out on being
able to place it because I cannot manipulate it to fit the situation?

Mike

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, JonCleaves@a... wrote:
> I think C is closest to my thoughts. Clearly transport is a huge
issue. but heck, guys I know *wink* arrange for entire loaner armies
to play in these events - surely they can find some friend to bring
them a couple of nice hills.....
>
> I definitely like the idea of the pre-established standards
complete with digital photos. Also the idea that if you don't bring
your own you are 'at the mercy' of what's available.
>
> J
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frank Gilson <franktrevorgilson@h...>
> To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 18:22:59 -0000
> Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: Terrain in Warrior Events
>
>
>
>
> Some people will build and bring their own terrain, they will be in
> the minority. So, you can:
>
> a) Require players to have quality terrain if they wish to place it.
> That imposes a mandatory time, money, and transport space
> requirement on players that is likely unfair.
>
> b) Have tournament organizers maintain a local set of terrain
likely
> sufficient to cover all needs.
> Hmmm, off the cuff calculations would require that NASAMW maintain
> for Warrior players for an event like Historicon something like
1000
> total terrain features to cover the type and size range that
players
> may draw from. That's something like 80 cubic feet of terrain. That
> is about two pickup truck beds full of the stuff, or one large van.
>
> These two positions seem to be the extremes of how quality terrain
> would appear at Warrior events. A compromise is the likely real
> world results such that:
>
> c) Players are encouraged to bring the terrain that they can,
> according to some defined minimum standards (text plus take digital
> pictures, make them available online and as paper handouts.)
> Tournament organizers state that they will have 'some' terrain
> available for loan. If you bring no terrain, you are at the mercy
of
> what's available...which is likely to be a subset of the types and
> sizes/shapes that you want.
>
> Frank
>
> --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, JonCleaves@a... wrote:
> > Just so folks know, I am very much into sharing of ideas on how
to
> make terrain here. But what I am looking for is methods to get
> players to use good terrain in games.
> >
> > J
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: turner1118 <Turnerm@l...>
> > To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 17:15:17 -0000
> > Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: Terrain in Warrior Events
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > For forests/woods I would expand on the brush idea. Use gator
> board
> > or roofing paper to make the appropriate "base",
sculpted/painted,
> > then separate pieces of lichen/brush are palce on the base, in
the
> > case of woods, these can be individually based trees. Most woods
> > would only need 4-6 "trees" placed on the base. When a unit
moves
> > into these pieces of terrain, simply move the bushes or trees
> around
> > the base to fit the unit.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, JonCleaves@a... wrote:
> > >
> > > Ok, if we’re gonna debate controversial
subjects, letâ
> €™s at
> > least do one that might result in change! Lol
> > >
> > > Seriously, we need to change the way we present terrain at our
> > public events. In my own inimitable blunt manner, let me state
> that
> > our terrain sucks. I am speaking specifically of Hcon/Cold Wars,
> but
> > also I have not been in a regional event where it was any
better.
> If
> > some of you are out there fighting the good fight and putting on
> > events with classy terrain, then lord bless you and please post
> some
> > pictures so you can get credit for your hard work and lead us all
> by
> > example.
> > >
> > > I would like us to get into a discussion about how to fix this
> > issue. Many ideas are on the table. What is not on the table is
> the
> > status quo. However we fix this, it is not our intent that it
> ends
> > up with folded felt and cloth hills. Repeated discussions of
this
> > and handing out awards for good terrain have done nothing to
> improve
> > the situation, so other types of measures are in order. Iââ
‚¬â„¢
> d like
> > to hear thoughts on measures that would actually work to get us
to
> > good looking and realistic terrain.
> > >
> > > Here’s the goals:
> > >
> > > 1. Improve the quality of terrain on our tables to be at least
> as
> > good as that found in WAB games and other convention events.
> > > 2. Remove the ability of the player to use the terrain
> generation
> > system to place â€ËÅ"gamey’ terrain.
> > >
> > > By #2 I mean that a guy who places a perfectly rectangular
woods
> > because that provides him the best micrometer advantage in the
> game
> > is doing something I find personally heinous but more importantly
> > both reflects sub-optimally on the Warrior hobby as well as
making
> > for a terrible looking table. Ditto for someone who brings a
> piece
> > of felt for a brush feature and folds it in half because its size
> > does not suit his current needs.
> > >
> > > I don’t think this can be self-policed. I
think we need
> a
> > standard in 14.0 that helps fix this. I myself am for pre-set
> > terrain in tourneys. But our customers largely prefer the 14.3
> > method, which does indeed have the advantage of the tourney
> organizer
> > not needing 16-20 tables of terrain (or more).
> > >
> > > That means, though, that players have to bring their own and it
> is
> > indeed hard to bring every conceivable piece that one could want
> once
> > one found out opponent/army. But we HAVE to change â€"
that
> isn’t
> > negotiable. Our tables look like crap and it is high time we got
> it
> > fixed.
> > >
> > > So, here’s my thoughts to stir the pot:
> > >
> > > 1. Terrain features cannot be made from felt or cloth.
Flocked
> > and/or painted card/gatorboard/roofing paper is the standard.
> Store
> > bought â€ËÅ"worldmaker’-like stuff is
totally ok.
> > > 2. Hills must be three dimensional and must be made in line
> with
> > 12.0. Flocked.
> > > 3. Woods must have trees. Painted/modeled or store bought.
> > Foliage.
> > > 4. Villages must have buildings/tents/huts of some appropriate
> > sort. Painted.
> > > 5. Marshes have lichen/weeds, rocky has rocks.
> > >
> > > Tourney organizer can remove any terrain feature from any table
> > that does not meet this standard.
> > >
> > > Tourney organizer ought to have as much correctly done â
> €ËÅ"common
> > terrain’ available for use as possible. Maybe
something to
> spend
> > local club/NASAMW funds on.
> > >
> > > Ok, have at me.
> > >
> > > Remember, we are looking for good ideas and the status quo is
> the
> > only thing off the table.
> > >
> > > Jon
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Mark Stone]

A couple of other comments.

First, there's no excuse for felt. Thin particle board or plywood (1/8" or
1/16") is cheap, easy to work with, easy to paint and flock. So guys, lose the
felt. Other materials are avaiable as well. I use styrofoam blocks cut with an
exacto saw to shape hills, which are then spray painted and flocked. Mounted on
a wooden base so they don't crack.

The point is, felt is a lousy choice when there are cheaper, better, more
flexible, and more attractive choices available.

Second:

Why not start giving out terrain pieces as prizes? I, for one, would be happy to
make up a couple of pieces per tournament to donate as prizes. If we got a few
other people to do the same, we could probably give out terrain for first
through fourth place at major events. This would save the tourney organizers
money, and gradually improve the appearance of our hobby.


-Mark Stone

Jon,

Is flocked felt OK? Or is the problem with a base that is flexible? I
just made up one of these by using a spray adhesive (used in automotive
trim applications) and applying the flocking to it. It no longer looks
like felt, so that should be a good thing.

Actually, about 2 weeks ago I began to feel some guilt about my terrain
and am now in the process of painting of a dozen new trees to go on
mini-stands in groups of 2 or 3. I also will be making some new hills
that look more like hills and less like topographical maps.

-- Charles

[Mike Turner]

Good ideas

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, Mark Stone <mark@d...> wrote:
> Why people cannot take the time and effort to have decent-looking
terrain is a
> mystery to me. I made the decision over a year ago -- in response
to an earlier
> post by Jon on this topic -- to upgrade the quality of my terrain.
I'll put some
> pictures online to show what I've got; I may be able to do this
later today.
>
> Now, let me qualify my complaint with this:
> - I play 25mm
> - I fly 3000 miles to get to Cold Wars and Historicon
> - I have very little artistic talent
>
> So, if you have some excuse not covered by the above, I'd be happy
to hear it.
> Otherwise, you should have decent terrain and bring it with you.
>
> Having said that, I realize that Frank is right, and that most
people _still_
> won't make and bring decent-looking terrain. I have one caveat, and
a
> suggestion.
>
> First the caveat: I am _absolutely_ opposed to dispensing with the
current
> feature-choosing system for tournament. In a campaign, grand
tactical level
> maneuver would determine where and on what terrain a battle took
place. The
> feature-choosing system is the only thing in a tournament context
we have for
> capturing, however abstractly, that grand tactical element of
battle.
>
> Furthermore, going to preset terrain would inevitably disadvantage
some armies
> (which ones would depend on the mix of terrain). Anything that
makes fewer
> armies tournament viable is a _bad_ thing.
>
> So, what to do?
>
> It has been my observation that most terrain goes unused most of
the time at
> tournaments. I'm not opposed to loaning out my terrain, and in fact
I do this
> with friends (*ahem* Frank *ahem*) all the time. Why not extend
that to simply
> make it a tournament policy?
>
> I would be happy with the following:
> (1) All terrain to be used at a major national tournament (i.e.
Cold Wars,
> Historicon) must pass inspection. If the tournament organizers
and/or umpire
> don't think a particular piece meets the standard, then that piece
cannot be
> used.
>
> (2) Designate a table for the "terrain pool" where all acceptable
terrain is
> placed. In each tournament round each player, of course, gets dibs
on the
> terrain they brought, but thereafter anyone who didn't bring
terrain can have
> their pick of any remaining terrain. If no piece is available that
fits the
> size and type they are looking for, too bad. Let that be a lesson
to them for
> next tournament.
>
>
> -Mark Stone

[Ewan McNay]

Mark Stone wrote:
> Why not start giving out terrain pieces as prizes? I, for one, would be happy
to
> make up a couple of pieces per tournament to donate as prizes. If we got a few
> other people to do the same, we could probably give out terrain for first
> through fourth place at major events. This would save the tourney organizers
> money, and gradually improve the appearance of our hobby.

This is easily the most constructive suggestion made thus far on this. I
don't have time to paint figures, as is well-known (!). I probably don't
have time to make even minimal terrain (although the Sassanids tend not to
want much, which helps right now!).

However, what I *do* have in the decent-terrain department is a few sets
of hills that I bought with prize vouchers at H'Con/CW.

I'd **far** rather see this stuff as prizes than any number of plaques.

On another front - I know that the Warrior NICT folk paid (? will pay?)
extra for the uber-cool trophy that Eric Turner is organising (Eric,
what's the status of that?). I don't doubt that something similar would
form an acceptable basis of a fund for Lancaster terrain.

The terrain pool suggestions, though, seem to me to have a large potential
for delaying gamestarts, which is *not* an option for an already
sometimes-sluggish game.

Looking forward to seeing some of you at PointCon this weekend, and many
more at CW in two weeks. And finding out what Mark is doing with 1400
figures, or however many it was, of course...

>
>
> -Mark Stone
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>