Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[scott holder]

Warrior Cold Wars Combat Results
Total Number of Participants: 50.

25mm Doubles:

1) Dave Stier & Frank Gilson, HYWE, 44.5
2) Jon Cleaves & Michael Turner, Medieval Spanish, 33.8
3) Greg Hauser & Matthew Fudge, Sultanate of Delhi, 26
4) Jevon Garrett & Sean Scott, Feudal French, 23.4
5) Tim Brown & Ambrose Coddington, HYWE, 22.5
6) Mark Stone & Bill Chamis, L Paleologan Byzantine, 20.6
7) Rob Turnball & Dick Hurchanik, L Ottoman Turk, 20.1
Chris Damour & Jamie Gentry, King David Scots, 18
9) Mike Kelly & Scott McDonald, Midianites, 17.5
10) Rich Kroupa & Mike Byrne, Russ, 14.7
11) Marc Cribbs & Jim Bisigani, Alexandrian Imperial, 14.4
12) Eric Turner & Tim Grimmett, Yuan, 12.9
13) Mark Hissam & John Murphy, HYWE, 11.9
Chris Cameron & Chris Ryall, Mycenaean Greek, 11.9
15) Phil Gardocki & Ed Bernhart, Ghaznavid, 8.3
16) Mike Bard & Allen Lougheed, Late Hoplite Greek, 3.7

The preponderance of knight armies has much to do with the number of points
(2000) and the table size (8x5) than anything else. Okay, there are some dyed
in the wool medieval players. When we first instituted Doubles play, we tried
12 foot and then 10 foot tables, they just seemed "too wide". Plus, it's tough
to layout a viable floor plan for 10 foot wide tables. And the Cameron/Ryall,
Bard/Lougheed teams are to be commended for bringing armies that were knock out
paint jobs with less than stellar reputations on the table.

15mm Doubles

1) Bill Low & Mike Mallamaci, Ghaznavid, 14
2) Craig Scott & Tom Barkus, Sassanid Persian, 9
3) Dave Dietrich & Dave Beatty, Indian, 7 (won on tie break)
4) Shawn Blevin & Larry Essick, KOSJ, 7
5) Devin Low & Dan Woyke, LIR, 6
6) Fred Steckel & Dylan Lawrence, LIR, 5


25mm Mini

1) Mike Mallamaci, Nikephorian Byzantine, 15
2) Eric Turner, Yuan, 12
3) Dick Hurchanik, L Ottoman Turk, 11 (won on tie breaker)
4) Phil Gardocki, Anglo-Irish, 11
5) Rob Turnball, L Carthagenian, 10
6) Mike Kelly, Ayyubid Egyptian, 7 (won on tiebreaker)
7) Rich Kroupa, Sicilian Hohenstaufen, 7
Jamie Gentry, Inca, 7
9) Frank Gilson, EIR, 7
10) Sean Scott, Communal Italian, 5
11) Michael Bard, L Hoplite Greek, 4
12) Allan Lougheed, Han Dynasty Chinese, 3


15mm Mini

1) Bill Low, Ghaznavid, 12
2) Dave Dietrich, Indian, 11 (won on tiebreaker)
3) Devin Low, Inca, 11
4) Craig Scott, Sassanid Persian
5) Dan Woyke, Moldavian
6) Shawn Blevin, KOSJ
7) Mark Hissam, HYWE
Dylan Lawrence, L Crusader
9) Scott Holder & Ed Bernhart (he played the second round game), AIS, 4
10) Fred Steckel, LIR, 1

Fast Warrior
1) Rob Turnball, Ptolemaic
2) Eric Turner, LIR
3) Scott Holder & Bill Low (he played in round two), Seleucid & L Paleologan
Byzantine
4) Mark Hissam, Free Company
5) Dave Ray, Arab Imperial
6) Mike Mallamaci, Marian Roman
7) Jamie Gentry, Magyars
Roger Taylor, Lithuanian

Sportsman: Fred Steckel.

Other Sportsman Nominees: Shawn Blevin. I'd like to thank Shawn a boatload for
agreeing to move from the 25mm Doubles to 15mm Doubles. It made for even
numbers in both scales.

Best Camp: Chris Cameron's Mycenaean Greek Camp (it had loads of Greek mythology
in it).

Best Camp Honorable Mentions: Mike Bard's Late Hoplite Greek Camp, Jamie
Gentry's Scottish camp, Dick Hurchanik's mobile camel camp. I hope somebody got
some photos of this stuff so we can put on the web.

In fact, both of these Greek armies were some of the best painted armies I've
seen in any tournament setting in years. Chris also brought some nice terrain
pieces.

NASAMW President Eric Turner actually made the Warrior plaques. They had our
now-famous Teuts charging across the snow artwork with the event information
overlaid. Many nice compliments on them.

Three people out of this mess qualified for the NICT: Dave Stier, Michael Turner
and Mike Mallamaci. Everybody else who placed high enough was already
qualified.

Scott Holder

[Mike Bard]

> Best Camp Honorable Mentions: Mike Bard's Late Hoplite Greek Camp, Jamie
Gentry's Scottish camp, Dick Hurchanik's mobile camel camp. I hope somebody
got some photos of this stuff so we can put on the web.

There are some pictures up now:

Pictures of the final Greek Civil War (aka the fight over Achilles' tomb,
though Achilles didn't die in the battle but likely would have shortly as
the Hoplites broke his unit. Heracles and his follows smashed the Spartans
into little tiny bits). I take no responsibility for these pictures, or
their size (someone else took them), or their titles.

The Black Shirt Brigade in Action:
http://home.comcast.net/~scallahan/images/IM000045.JPG

Note: In this picture I (Mike Bard) am the person who's bald head you can
see in the back ground, Chris Ryall is on the right wearing the hat and
Christian Cameron is behind him. Al Lougheed is the other guy on the left.

First clash of lines:
http://home.comcast.net/~scallahan/images/IM000048.JPG
Mike's Spaniards:
http://home.comcast.net/~scallahan/images/IM000016.JPG
Christian's Chariots:
http://home.comcast.net/~scallahan/images/IM000023.JPG
Battle is joined on the left flank:
http://home.comcast.net/~scallahan/images/IM000057.JPG
The Center clash:
http://home.comcast.net/~scallahan/images/IM000058.JPG

For additional and seemingly endless pictures of the hoplites, go to
http://www.deep-strike.com/Product/gallery/ancients/hoplights.htm. There is
also lots of editorial comment. There will be pictures of the camps
involved and the Achean Greeks going up.

For those curious about the painting...

Hoplites (and other figures in the army). Each figure was primed black,
then had the flesh painted (GW Elf Flesh, water soluable brown ink, drybrush
flesh -- the water soluable ink auto-blended the flesh), eyes were painted
black then white, then black pupil, mouths were painted with a fine black
line. Then everything touched up in black, then the linen painted (drybrush
GW Bleached Bone, drybrush white, pteruges (sp?) individually painted
white/leather), then the cloth shirt painted (dark colour, drybrush light
colour), assorted decoration lines painted (if on the cloth painted in dark
version of colour, and then carefully brushed in light version). Leather
was painted GW Bronzed Flesh, washed with a 50/50 mixture of GW Flesh Wash
and Future Floor Wax, and then strategically hilighted with a pale yellow
brown (old Poly S Griffon Hide recreated by mixing various paints). Armour
was painted silver (with upraised sections painted to leave a black line for
a hard separation) and then washed with GW Yellow Ink to get the bronze
affect. Plumes were painted a dark colour and then drybrushed a light
colour; some were washed. Spears were painted GW Bronzed Flesh, old old GW
Brown Wash, and then strategically hilighted with the Griffon Hide. Shields
were painted with a 10/0 brush, lots of colours, and lots of time.
Generally a colour was painted on, it was black outlined, and then a lighter
version of the colour was painted to create a highlight.

Achean Greeks (type 1)- Painted by Pictor, rebased, flesh highlighted with
GW Dwarf Flesh, linen greaves painted white over the bronze Pictor used,
shield rims painted Bronze.
(type 2) - painted by Mike Bard/Chris Ryall. Flesh painted GW Tanned Flesh,
washed with a 50/50 mixture of GW Chestnut ink and Future Floor Wax, either
drybrushed or hand painted with blobs of GW Drawf Flesh for the highlights.
Linen greeves/linen cloth painted GW Bleached Bone and then drybrushed
white. Coloured fringes were painted using a 50/50 mixture of the
appropriate GW ink and Future Floor Wax over the linen colour. Bronze
armour was painted either with bronze paint, or the same way the Hoplites
were done (depending on who painted them).
(type 3) - painted by Christian Cameron. More or less as above but without
any ink washes, and with gold leaf glued to the surface for gold/bronze.
The Shield of Achilles was custom made out of silver by a jeweller.

Shameless Plug: A company that both Christian and I helped co-found (Deep
Strike) does paint historical armies on commission, and make terrain. For
more information go to the top of the Deep Strike web site
(www.deep-strike.com) and take a look around. And yes, we do do GW stuff,
but also historicals.

Michael Bard
That Greek Hoplite Guy

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 3/15/2004 20:58:12 Central Standard Time,
mwbard@... writes:
More pictures are up.

http://www.pbase.com/stecal/cold_wars

Michael Bard
That Greek Hoplite Guy
Mike, those pictures are great, you guys were super and the armies stunning.
Your group's participation in the Warrior events was definitely one of the
weekend's highlights.
Thanks from all of us at FHE.

Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Mike Bard]

More pictures are up.

http://www.pbase.com/stecal/cold_wars

Michael Bard
That Greek Hoplite Guy

[scott holder]

http://www.pbase.com/stecal/cold_wars

Michael Bard
That Greek Hoplite Guy
Mike, those pictures are great, you guys were super and the armies stunning.
Your group's participation in the Warrior events was definitely one of the
weekend's highlights.
Thanks from all of us at FHE.

>I want to echo that. I really hope you enjoyed your playing experience. I
wish there was some way I could convince everybody to take "lower tier" armies
to a convention and play in a tourney. Would be very interesting to see how
players of all skill levels would cope. This is akin to Tim Brown's "Dogs of
War" tourney concept.

>I hope to see you guys this summer.

scott

[Mike Bard]

And some more pictures finally sorted and put up for your viewing
pleasure...

http://www.deep-strike.com/events/coldwars2004.htm

Michael Bard

[scott holder]

And some more pictures finally sorted and put up for your viewing
pleasure...

http://www.deep-strike.com/events/coldwars2004.htm

>Thanks for posting these, they are fantastic.

>Warrior has become, at least on the east coast, a 25mm game for good reason.
We got a lot of foot traffic at Cold Wars and the fact that we have some of the
best painted armies in tournament play doesn't hurt.

scott

[scott holder]

Mike: Who took these photos? I'd like to possibly use one of them on the April
2004 issue of the HMGS-East Newsletter. I'd plug the photographer and a link to
the website.

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Bard [mailto:mwbard@...]
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 2:20 PM
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [WarriorRules] Warrior Cold Wars Results


And some more pictures finally sorted and put up for your viewing
pleasure...

http://www.deep-strike.com/events/coldwars2004.htm

Michael Bard






Yahoo! Groups Links

[John Murphy]

Well, I agree that the Greek teams are to be commended for bringing
less-than-viable armies, but my hat goes off to my pard' for bringing
a less-than-viable teamate! Now there's a handicap! I am afraid it
was enough for us to finish 13th out of 16 with the
supposedly "killer army" of the current cycle.

Seriously, though, thanks to everyone for making the tourney _well_
worth flying back from California and hauling a 2000-pt 25mm army up
from Virginia. I had a great, fantastic time as expected and hope I
can con Mark into playing these guys again next year, maybe with a
year's worth of further insight.

Fwiw, here are my observations and comments on the games Mark & I
played. Much of this is from inaccurate memory so forgive me if I get
something wrong.

This is kind of long and rambling but maybe it will be of interest to
someone so I thought I'd throw it out there.

ROUND ONE - Mike Kelly & Scott McDonald, Midianites
Mark's first comment to me when he saw the initial pairings (after
his relief we were not playing his nemesis Incas) was "oh my gosh we
got Kelly and McDonald and they're playing Midanites". This was,
indeed, a tough draw for the first round, but situations like this
are why you come all the way to Lancaster. Not only are the Midanites
a very good mounted missile force but Mike and Scott are both
excellent and experienced Warrior players.
I think we lucked out a bit during the game. They pinned us with
their LI and tried to flank us through the woods on our flank. Mark
did an admirable job of dead-on tactics in defending that flank.
Meanwhile I thought at the time I got a lucky break to catch a couple
stacked up LI units with a charge by my longbowmen. At this point we
had broken four LI units between the two of us and were feeling
pretty good about how we were doing against such top-notch first-
round competition.
Unfortunately, I have come to the conclusion this was a bit of a
sucker ploy on the part of Mike and/or Scott. You see, after routing
two LI units my longbow unit was all alone a couple bounds later
sitting in front of a solid line of the Midanite camel machine-guns!
Needless to say they got hosed, charged, failed the waver test
despite being upgraded to B class, and routed. Now that would have
been still not too bad except they routed past the A-class Royal
Archer Guards who were facing a charge of their own and who promptly
threw a '1' to blow their own waver test, shake, and get routed in
the ensuing combat. This rout in turn caused an adjacent knight unit
to shake.
So, we went in one turn and a few waver tests from feeling real
good to scratching our heads and losing. Fortunately, it was
discovered that the LI totalled to just enough to make it a 2-2 in
tourney terms but while Mark was hanging tough I was clearly in
trouble at this juncture.
Moral of this story, don't believe your good fortune when you are
chasing these guys' LI, it is probably meant for just that purpose.
ROUND TWO - Mike Bard & Allen Lougheed, Late Hoplite Greek
I think everyone felt this was one of the best-painted armies in
the tourney. The pictures certainly bear this out. Thanks guys for
thinking to take all the nice photos.
We were not sure what to expect when we found out they had
something like 45 scouting points, which was more than either Mark or
I pictured for a typical kind of hoplite shield wall like what we
envisioned. It turned out there was a sustantial light force with
this army as well as some particularly nasty Spanish Celtiberians
(sp?).
We felt pretty good about the matchup army-wise overall. Our main
thinking was to avoid having our flanks turned (as always with HYWE)
and to be in position to get stakes down in the event we actually had
to face the hoplites. Then we wanted to go looking for knight
targets. I was hoping to actually get to charge something with the
knights for a change!
We were fortunate in that the shieldless Greek JLS LC came up
against one of my longbow units and the LB-fire was split unevenly so
one unit was pounded for 3 consecutive disorders, failed 2 waver
tests and took the other unit with it when it routed. This left the
flank wide open for the longbows to pivot in on the Spaniards. At the
same time we left a couple knight units to charge the Greek boats as
they hit the shore before their troops could debark.
At this point the Spaniards were getting pissed off at us for
shooting them and came charging in. The knights then charged into the
Spaniards next bound and that was pretty much the game. Most of the
action this time happened on my flank, and I got to charge with the
knights a few times, so I was pretty happy.
ROUND THREE - Rob Turnball & Dick Hurchanik, L Ottoman Turk
I love this Turk army, and I'd like it much better if I was
playing it instead of playing against it! I had played Dick with
these guys in 15mm when I was running E.Nik.Byz. at H-con last year.
The Janissaries had kicked my butt and I warned Mark we were in for a
tough time. Of course, I wound up facing Dick and the Janissaries
with a Major Water flank while Mark took on the tough assignment
(like always) of defending our 'open' flank against the Turk mounted.
The way the game went I was probably a bit over-cowed by the HG's
based on past experience which is too bad but oh well.
Basically I just screened off the Janissaries with my longbows and
hoped Mark could make some headway against the Sipahis and Akinjis.
The long and short was he blew a couple counters, blew a couple waver
tests and we were in big trouble. I should have done more to help but
was mesmerized by the prospect of all that HG/CB/B front-rank-
shielded-HI support shooting. I think actually the longbows might
fare okay if they stay at 2-3 inches and then pick a good time to
charge in with choppers. But at the time I was disgustingly chicken
and playing more not to lose instead of playing to win. And when
Mark's luck went South in a very tough assignment that was all she
wrote. I think we lost this one 5-1 and for the life of me I can't
remember how we got 1, must have been someting Mark did!

My overall comments on the HYWE -
I have a long-time historical interest in this army, albeit among
many others, and anyone who runs an army in 25mm just to win tourneys
is crazy. But I will admit it has certain characteristics that fit
me. I do a bit better with knight armies than with other kinds, maybe
that is true with everyone but I have noticed it is very pronounced
in my case. This particular knight army not only has good, cheap
regular knight units but excellent supporting missile foot which
makes it easier for me to not only protect the knights but get the
most use out of them throughout the whole game. Just my patzer's
observation.
We ran a version of it akin to the version I ran with a tad of
success (for me at least) in a recent NoVa regional tourney, with an
emphasis on the two main troop types of longbows and lances. This is
a bit easier to handle for me as there are not sooo many options and
different troop types combining as to befuddle myself. Mark was very
kind to go along with probably a sub-optimal list just because I
thought I could manage it okay. He plays a lot of HYWE and Free
Company and made a good and instructive player to team with.
That said there are some weaknesses with this army. It is not like
you get to hide them and magically become a good player. The longbows
as loose order foot are a bit vulnerable to an aggressive mounted
attacker willing to take a chance. All it takes is a blown waver
test. Unfortunately this seems to happen almost every time the other
guy really needs it! The regular knights are very manueverable and
cheap (back shieldless HK) but they often don't get the oomph of
impetuous first charges and if disordered they can be toast. All that
said these are things you live with to get the regular manuevering
power and hope to use it over several charges late into a game rather
than one big first impetuous charge. And you live with the loose
order wavers to get the protection and set-up the longbows provide
for the army.

[Mike Bard]

First, I want to thank you for the game. Secondly (and it is in NO way your
fault) this was my least favourite game of the tournament. An explanation:
Due to time restrictions and lack of anybody else having a playable army, I
had never played the full army I had until Cold Wars (only the Fast Play
lists). In the previous game on Saturday I'd finally figured out a possible
system with the irregs in sequential assaults to crack a unit and I tried
that against you, but because you didn't have any close order infantry it
didn't go very well. And, even though I tried it because I had to try
something, due to my own inexperience I felt helpless. Again, not your
fault, solely mine.

For discussion purposes though, after thoughts, number crunching, and talks,
I now have a potential system for use against knight armies which I would
appreciate comments on.

1. Single hoplite unit ('the wall' - 48 figure unit) with flanking 24 figure
units on its left and right flanks about 40 paces further back.
2. Two other flanking 16 figure units in column behind the left and right
flanks to prevent out-flanking attacks. These are the Spartans.
3. One final 24 figure unit in the centre rear to prevent unopposed rear
attacks.
4. Half the irregs (Irreg C Spaniards with HTW and Irreg A Celts) on the
inside of each of the left and right flanks in column. Spaniards first,
Celts behind and inside.
5. Lights in woods, to prevent marches, and screen the flanks. The centre
should be fairly immune to missile fire... (see below). (the LC is behind
either flank, or the wall, as a reserve to make outflanking at least
difficult)

Tactics: The entire box advances agressively towards the enemy deployment
zone. Yes, the baggage is a write-off (I won't make it easy though), but at
least it takes a unit out of action. 'The Wall' should be able to ignore
unconcentrated missile fire, and the flanks will have to be worked against.
Eventually the knights will either have to charge 'The Wall' (or the
flanks), dismount and charge, or be forced into an engagment when they no
longer have room to run. In the case of the HYWE, the archers will
eventually be trapped.

As I see it the opponent has two options. They can mass bow fire against
'The Wall', disorder it, and then charge it. I should have at least one
bound's warning of this. Alternately they can go for one of the flanks.
Blissfully I continue to advance until they disorder their target and charge
it. They either push back the target, or break and rout it. The Spartans
generally shouldn't care, same goes for the Celts. Other units may become
shaken or not -- I may lose one.

At this point the Celts/Spaniards advance and charge the enemy unit that is
now likely tired, hopefully in a flank. Since the target unit will either
be broken (and out of the way), recoiled (and out of the way), or adjacent
regular units will move out of the way, there should be room. The Spartans
(assuming that they are not the target) will also move to attack targets of
opportunity. This should allow me to break at least a couple of units, and
then it becomes ugly as individual units go seeking targets of opportunity.

Comments?

Michael Bard
>ROUND TWO - Mike Bard & Allen Lougheed, Late Hoplite Greek
>I think everyone felt this was one of the best-painted armies in
>the tourney. The pictures certainly bear this out. Thanks guys for
>thinking to take all the nice photos.
>We were not sure what to expect when we found out they had
>something like 45 scouting points, which was more than either >Mark or
>I pictured for a typical kind of hoplite shield wall like what we
>envisioned. It turned out there was a sustantial light force with
>this army as well as some particularly nasty Spanish Celtiberians
>(sp?).
>We felt pretty good about the matchup army-wise overall. Our main
>thinking was to avoid having our flanks turned (as always with HYWE)
>and to be in position to get stakes down in the event we actually had
>to face the hoplites. Then we wanted to go looking for knight
>targets. I was hoping to actually get to charge something with the
>knights for a change!
>We were fortunate in that the shieldless Greek JLS LC came up
>against one of my longbow units and the LB-fire was split unevenly so
>one unit was pounded for 3 consecutive disorders, failed 2 waver
>tests and took the other unit with it when it routed. This left the
>flank wide open for the longbows to pivot in on the Spaniards. At the
>same time we left a couple knight units to charge the Greek boats as
>they hit the shore before their troops could debark.
>At this point the Spaniards were getting pissed off at us for
>shooting them and came charging in. The knights then charged into the
>Spaniards next bound and that was pretty much the game. Most of the
>action this time happened on my flank, and I got to charge with the
>knights a few times, so I was pretty happy.

[John Murphy]

Hi Michael,

I will try to give this a thoughtful response as you were a gracious
opponent and merit such. However, be aware that I am not the
brightest bulb on the Warrior tree, that this is not typically the
kind of army I play and there are a few folks in particular that know
exactly how to get the most mileage out of this kind of army.

I'll take your points in-line where I have reasonable comments to
make.

> First, I want to thank you for the game.

You are certainly welcome.

> Due to time restrictions and lack of anybody else having a playable
army, I
> had never played the full army I had until Cold Wars

Keeping in mind that after 20 years of playing and losing in this
system off and on I am still a beginner myself... This is always
tough but you have to start somewhere. I have to say you showed a lot
of guts both in your army selection and in your style of play. I know
it sounds like a platitude but really just don't get discouraged,
keeping asking people like you are, learn from experience and
eventually it will work out. One bit of advice though is stick with
an army at least long enough to really learn it well and give it a
chance with a bunch of different tactics. I know you will probably
get a lot of people around here tell you that hoplites can't win and
don't bother playing them. Well, who cares? You play them because you
like them, the tourneys aren't for big prize money or anything, a
year later only the winners remember who actually won, and draw
satisfaction from seeing your play improve with that army.
Ironically, maybe you will learn a lot that you can transfer to
another army if you decide to add one down the road.


>In the previous game on Saturday I'd finally figured out a possible
> system with the irregs in sequential assaults to crack a unit and I
tried
> that against you, but because you didn't have any close order
infantry it
> didn't go very well. And, even though I tried it because I had to
try
> something,


I am guessing that your irregs don't really need a "system" to beat
close order foot. IIRC they are all loose order and either IrrA or
else 2HCW, right? With impetuous charges and a bit of luck rolling up
these are really good good troops against foot. You might want to
look at protecting them from shooting, and knights, a bit more by
using them a bit more closely with the hoplites. A lot of players
make gravy with units like this tucked into the infamous Warrior 1-2E
gap between "mobile terrain" units (hoplites would certainly come to
mind here). THey can not be shot and can not be charged but they can
charge out when it suits them.



> 1. Single hoplite unit ('the wall' - 48 figure unit) with flanking
24 figure
> units on its left and right flanks about 40 paces further back.
> 2. Two other flanking 16 figure units in column behind the left and
right
> flanks to prevent out-flanking attacks. These are the Spartans.
> 3. One final 24 figure unit in the centre rear to prevent unopposed
rear
> attacks.
> 4. Half the irregs (Irreg C Spaniards with HTW and Irreg A Celts)
on the
> inside of each of the left and right flanks in column. Spaniards
first,
> Celts behind and inside.
> 5. Lights in woods, to prevent marches, and screen the flanks. The
centre
> should be fairly immune to missile fire... (see below). (the LC is
behind
> either flank, or the wall, as a reserve to make outflanking at least
> difficult)
>
> Tactics: The entire box advances agressively towards the enemy
deployment
> zone. Yes, the baggage is a write-off (I won't make it easy
though), but at
> least it takes a unit out of action. 'The Wall' should be able to
ignore
> unconcentrated missile fire, and the flanks will have to be worked
against.
> Eventually the knights will either have to charge 'The Wall' (or the
> flanks), dismount and charge, or be forced into an engagment when
they no
> longer have room to run. In the case of the HYWE, the archers will
> eventually be trapped.


There are maybe some gems here but overall this could be tricky to
bring off.

For one thing at 2" per turn with no skirmishers out front to claim
space for marches the Wall will maybe never get to the point where it
traps anything. Be aware the hoplites are not completely invulnerable
either to the kind of truly massive missile fire you are going to see
from a lot of armies, big units are great but just recognize they
also attract proportionally more enemy fire. Both of these reasons
suggest keeping your LI out front (which doesn't realy hurt you).
Also something, either the LI or you might consider your Wall o'
hoplons, ought to be force-marched to the center line. I know a lot
of Swiss armies are played this way (force march the main infantry
line) with some success and it would seem like close-order hoplites
would make an even better case for it.

The whole thing with light trops in Warrior, a lot of times anyway,
is that they are just there to be there - which can have a lot of
value. They just take up space and give you a chance to come in
behind them. Throw your LI and LC way out front, maybe LI in center
and LC on flanks like you said but don't sit back with them because
then when they evade away, which they will almost always expect to
do, they are not protecting you anymore.

But don't run your shieldless JLS-armed LC up to close range against
anything that can shoot. Unlike the LI, you do care if they rout and
being armed with JLS this is maybe the only way they will get in over
their heads. Just grab space with them and keep them from getting
into too much trouble.

The other trade off you are making is that using a wall of a big unit
is great in terms of requiring a lot of opponent's attention to bring
down but it also means you are not getting a lot of gaps all along
the line to run your loose foot through. So your real hitting power
is concentrated in only a couple very inflexible places. All that
said, okay maybe this is still the way to go but be aware that is the
choice you are making and the other guy doesn't have to co-operate by
putting some juicy loose-foot target (like close foot) in front of
them.

Also, try to cut the table size way down with thick terrain on the
flanks. This will make you even more secure than posting LC to the
job alone. If you can cut the frontage down enough you might even
consider running the hoplites 3 or 4 deep to make it more difficult
to do CPF against them. Of course that presumes you have enough units
big enough to afford the corresponding loss in frontage.



> As I see it the opponent has two options. They can mass bow fire
against
> 'The Wall', disorder it, and then charge it. I should have at
least one
> bound's warning of this. Alternately they can go for one of the
flanks.
> Blissfully I continue to advance until they disorder their target
and charge
> it. They either push back the target, or break and rout it. The
Spartans
> generally shouldn't care, same goes for the Celts. Other units may
become
> shaken or not -- I may lose one.


Just an observation here, you probably should care a lot if your
hoplite wall breaks. Invariably waver tests from routing units are
always failed in the worst possible place at the worst possible time.
Also this opens you up to the flank charges on your other units that
you have gone to such lengths to protect against and all kinds of bad
stuff. That said, with proper support from your lose foot and a
couple HC units to scare loose shooters maybe you can make it
difficult for someone to do?


> At this point the Celts/Spaniards advance and charge the enemy unit
that is
> now likely tired, hopefully in a flank. Since the target unit will
either
> be broken (and out of the way), recoiled (and out of the way), or
adjacent
> regular units will move out of the way, there should be room. The
Spartans
> (assuming that they are not the target) will also move to attack
targets of
> opportunity. This should allow me to break at least a couple of
units, and
> then it becomes ugly as individual units go seeking targets of
opportunity.


If you can keep your loose safe from missiles and mounted by working
together with your hoplites (think gaps here) then this is, IMHO, a
viable weapon. Just let me echo what I said earlier about the other
co-operating though. You want to have as many small loose foot units
like this as possible spread around your line so you can choose the
best targets instead of having the other guy choose for you.

I don't know, like I said I am not the best at playing this but it
sounds like a good point to think about.

[Mike Bard]

> I will try to give this a thoughtful response as you were a gracious
> opponent and merit such. However, be aware that I am not the
> brightest bulb on the Warrior tree, that this is not typically the
> kind of army I play and there are a few folks in particular that know
> exactly how to get the most mileage out of this kind of army.

No problem and thanks.

> Keeping in mind that after 20 years of playing and losing in this
> system off and on I am still a beginner myself... This is always
> tough but you have to start somewhere. I have to say you showed a lot
> of guts both in your army selection and in your style of play. I know
> it sounds like a platitude but really just don't get discouraged,

I take great joy in doing the impossible so I have no plans to drop hoplites
in the forseeable future (I've wanted to do the army for 20 years and have
just reached what I consider an appropriate level of painting skill to do it
right). If I get pasted in every game I play over the next 2 years that
might change, but that' what it would take. So fear not!

> >In the previous game on Saturday I'd finally figured out a possible
> > system with the irregs in sequential assaults to crack a unit and I
> tried
>
> I am guessing that your irregs don't really need a "system" to beat
> close order foot. IIRC they are all loose order and either IrrA or
> else 2HCW, right? With impetuous charges and a bit of luck rolling up
> these are really good good troops against foot. You might want to
> look at protecting them from shooting, and knights, a bit more by
> using them a bit more closely with the hoplites. A lot of players
> make gravy with units like this tucked into the infamous Warrior 1-2E
> gap between "mobile terrain" units (hoplites would certainly come to
> mind here). THey can not be shot and can not be charged but they can
> charge out when it suits them.

You don't know how well I roll dice... In the previous game I was facing 2
deep pike and charged one unit with 3 2 element blocks of Irreg A celts.
Two of them rolled down. Another block got hit by a 4 element Spaniard
block... and rolled down. The system is to do everything possible to
ensure that I can kill at least one unit to punch a hole, at which case 24
figure blocks of hoplite advance through the gap and start hitting flanks.
Basically the target unit is first hit by a 12 figure block of Spaniards
(Irreg C, HTW, Sh). If there is space on one side or another then one 6
figure block of Celts go in. If the unit does not break (i.e. I continue to
roll down) then unengaged elements of the target will be hit by more Irreg A
Celts (on the flank if I have to). If units are broken and rout, then they
will be replaced by a second wave of Spaniard and Celts. If this all fails,
then that's life.

Yes, the exact spacing/position will be dependent on the target. If the
target units are 2 element frontage, then the Spaniards will have to run in
a column. Other combinations will be configured during setup.>

> There are maybe some gems here but overall this could be tricky to
> bring off.
>
> For one thing at 2" per turn with no skirmishers out front to claim
> space for marches the Wall will maybe never get to the point where it
> traps anything. Be aware the hoplites are not completely invulnerable
> either to the kind of truly massive missile fire you are going to see
> from a lot of armies, big units are great but just recognize they
> also attract proportionally more enemy fire. Both of these reasons
> suggest keeping your LI out front (which doesn't realy hurt you).
> Also something, either the LI or you might consider your Wall o'
> hoplons, ought to be force-marched to the center line. I know a lot
> of Swiss armies are played this way (force march the main infantry
> line) with some success and it would seem like close-order hoplites
> would make an even better case for it.

Skirmishers are dependent on who is being faced. If there is a mass mass
archer enemy, then the skirmishers would probably defend the wall. If the
army is primarily knight, then they might be on the flanks, or in front of
the wall (to trigger charges by Irreg A). If 'the wall' is faced by a
solid line of dense archers, then it will use an approach to halve it's
frontage by a frontage contraction, and the reserve hoplite unit (or others)
will move in.

As to force marching, there are 2 or 3 units of Reg C Sh B LI (2 elements
each) that force march to the centre. If the knight army has foot, then I
would likely force march the whole thing, otherwise I can bring everything
up to the middle during the marches in the first bound (and get the entire
line up in marches in the second bound) not requring the 2 fatigue.

> But don't run your shieldless JLS-armed LC up to close range against
> anything that can shoot. Unlike the LI, you do care if they rout and
> being armed with JLS this is maybe the only way they will get in over
> their heads. Just grab space with them and keep them from getting
> into too much trouble.

The only reason that I ran my LC JLS up to one of your archer units is
because I remembered that mounted charges vs. loose force a waver check, and
forgot that LC cannot charge loose in good order. Oops.

> Also, try to cut the table size way down with thick terrain on the
> flanks. This will make you even more secure than posting LC to the
> job alone. If you can cut the frontage down enough you might even
> consider running the hoplites 3 or 4 deep to make it more difficult
> to do CPF against them. Of course that presumes you have enough units
> big enough to afford the corresponding loss in frontage.

The problem with terrain is that I can't depend on it. My current thought
is to just fill the map with empty to ensure that I have a block of area to
advance in cleanly. Or, at least, there will be one empty. With dense
terrain in flanks I have to worry about ambushes and other annoyances on my
flanks, and I don't have an effective dedicated woods clearing block of
troops (it really requires 3 bodies of regular LI -- Cretans (Reg C LI B)
could do it, but I prefer them for the force march to grab deployment area).
Deepening the hoplite blocks has been discussed, but since I double-base
everything I can do either 2 or 4. Based on the Marathon analysis I think
I'm going to paint up some 1 deep blocks with the spears upright and then
use those to swap around to give more flexibility. It might even be
worthwhile to go all to 24 figure units, and put a 1 figure deep line in the
front with a big sign 'come and get me' to suck the victim in.

> > As I see it the opponent has two options. They can mass bow fire
> against
> > 'The Wall', disorder it, and then charge it. Other units may
> become
> > shaken or not -- I may lose one.
>
> Just an observation here, you probably should care a lot if your
> hoplite wall breaks. Invariably waver tests from routing units are
> always failed in the worst possible place at the worst possible time.
> Also this opens you up to the flank charges on your other units that
> you have gone to such lengths to protect against and all kinds of bad
> stuff. That said, with proper support from your lose foot and a
> couple HC units to scare loose shooters maybe you can make it
> difficult for someone to do?

I agree with the waver tests, but given the 2000 year time difference, I
can't see a risk free way to do it. Since all of the important troops are
either As or have redundant units, I consider it an acceptable risk.
Nothing's perfect, but the entire square shoudl be set up so that if one
unit routs, and the entire army doesn't break, the enemy should be
surrounded by fresh units and destroyed. Then, since close order can rally
when behind other close order, the broken unit recovers, and is ready to
move back into the line as a reserve. Or everybody fails, the army shakes
and breaks, and that's the way the dice fall...

> > At this point the Celts/Spaniards advance and charge the enemy unit
> that is
> > now likely tired, hopefully in a flank. Since the target unit will
> either
> > be broken (and out of the way), recoiled (and out of the way), or
> adjacent
> > regular units will move out of the way, there should be room.
>
> If you can keep your loose safe from missiles and mounted by working
> together with your hoplites (think gaps here) then this is, IMHO, a
> viable weapon. Just let me echo what I said earlier about the other
> co-operating though. You want to have as many small loose foot units
> like this as possible spread around your line so you can choose the
> best targets instead of having the other guy choose for you.

You are right in that smaller blocks with more assault units could work
better. Unfortunately I can only have 24 figures of each type, and my
preference is to concentrate on turning a flank rather than creating a
couple of holes in the middle where the enemy can now turn units to deal
with the invaders.

> I don't know, like I said I am not the best at playing this but it
> sounds like a good point to think about.

I'm going to have to play games and see how it works. To paraphrase Ardak
Kumerian, the only true test is combat.

Michael Bard

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 3/19/2004 1:59:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, mwbard@...
writes:

> To paraphrase Ardak
> Kumerian, the only true test is combat.>>

The truly amazing thing is that AK is one of my oldest and dearest
friends....lol

[Don Coon]

I do not have anything meaningful to add here other than this. The guys
here in DFW know I have been painting on a 25mm Hoplite army for about a
year. I am taking my time and the figs are looking good. I got the foundry
Spartan deal (I bought 2) so got a great price on the figs. I have drafted
up an army list or two and prepared to get thumped, but dam, they are gonna
look good (by my painting skill anyway).

So in short what I am saying is, good fighting to you with this army. I
watch the posts with interest (and envy as mine are not yet ready) and hope
to glean out a tactic or two.

I do plan to run blocks of 16 hoplites with checker board interlaced
Thracians and peltasts. Gotta use those no charging gaps .

I will take all the 1.5 rank horse I am allowed to help even the playing
field a bit against non knights.

Don

[Bill Chriss]

--- In WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com, <jjendon@c...> wrote:
> I do not have anything meaningful to add here other than this.
The guys
> here in DFW know I have been painting on a 25mm Hoplite army for
about a
> year. I am taking my time and the figs are looking good. I got
the foundry
> Spartan deal (I bought 2) so got a great price on the figs. I
have drafted
> up an army list or two and prepared to get thumped, but dam, they
are gonna
> look good (by my painting skill anyway).
>
> So in short what I am saying is, good fighting to you with this
army. I
> watch the posts with interest (and envy as mine are not yet ready)
and hope
> to glean out a tactic or two.
>


Okay, guys. This is starting to get a little wierd. I've been
getting my clock cleaned (most of the time) with this army in 15mm
for 10 years, and now all of a sudden there are brethren being
converted from North to South. Is ths the new vogue? Have we started
something here? If this trend continues, we might actually have a
15mm Open final that replicates the Peloponnesian War!! I can hardly
contain myself. We must continue to resist the temptation to run all
those barbarian, trouser-wearing, missile-armed armies who fear hand-
to-hand combat!

By the way, next Thursday, March 25th is Greek Independence Day.
Perhaps someone could stage a 1600 pt. Paleologan Byzantine or
Italian Condotta (VG) vs. Ottoman game in remembrance.

Hoplites...try them, you'll like them.

Greek