Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

[Larry Essick]

to build a presence at a convention?

I have a little bit of personal experience here, so I thought that I'd
leap from Kelly's request for loaner armies into the broader question
of how to break into a con and establish a presence there.

Jon's reply about not loaning armies and people voting is what prompts
me to this, as his perspective does not match well with my experiences
at all.

Now, in doing this, I hope to get input from others who have either
successfully or unsuccessfully tried to build an ancients/medievals
event at a local convention or hobby shop. It is a sort of practical
how to and/or what not to do....

First, the biggest thing needed is a group of people willing to
sacrifice their time, energy, figures and money to support the effort.

I helped with the original ancients tournaments at Nashcon years ago
when Scott Dickson asked me to help organize something. It took the
two of us working through the convention organizers and through the
then informal connections of NASAMW to get the ball rolling.

I did the same thing for a convention in Virginia and earlier this
year for Siege of Augusta. In every case it took time, energy,
figures and money.

Second, it takes dedication to repeat the effort the next time.
Because I am associated with the Army, I move a lot. When I move
there is a noticable decline the next year. That is because it takes
a lot of work to sustain the effort and I either do not have enough of
the first thing needed -- enough people helping out -- or those people
don't maintain the level of drive needed to keep things going.

Nashcon, as we know, gradually fizzled out. The Virginia effort died
the next year when I went to Germany and no one else was available to
take over. Siege of Augusta limped along for years between the first
events run by Chris Damour and me until this year because of a lack of
real effort. It will likely be back to its previous low levels as
Uncle Suger sends me and my family to Arizona in July.

So, the big message for this first post is that building something is
hard work and it is only successful for as long as the one or two or
three people who are advocates remain willing to put in the work
needed to make the event happen.

Larry

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 5/20/2004 11:57:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
larryessick@... writes:

> So, the big message for this first post is that building something is
> hard work and it is only successful for as long as the one or two or
> three people who are advocates remain willing to put in the
> work
> needed to make the event happen.
>
> Larry>>

Larry, I have built a strong group of players in KC - from 1-2 to 12 regulars at
cons. At the last one, four of the players had loaner figures from me or an
entire army from my collection. We have the best prize to player ratio in
Warrior. There was no Warrior event at either con when we started. I am in
complete agreement that it is hard work and someone has to take a strong active
role to make it happen.

I have attended NashCon, the difficulty with NashCon is the weekend it falls on.

I am very, very pleased that you and others are returning Warrior to a premier
historical venue. I am willing to help in any way I can, as is FHE, to the
limits of our ability.

J

[Larry Essick]

> Larry, I have built a strong group of players in KC - from 1-2 to 12
regulars at cons. At the last one, four of the players had loaner
figures from me or an entire army from my collection. We have the
best prize to player ratio in Warrior. There was no Warrior event at
either con when we started. I am in complete agreement that it is
hard work and someone has to take a strong active role to make it
happen.
>

:-)

There is a difference between what you seem to mention, Jon, and what
I am trying to focus on.

While you have built a local group and that group attends conventions,
I am trying to focus on how do we go about getting our foot in the
door and building a sustained presence at established shows.

To use you and your group as an example, the way to start is for one
or two of you to take the lead and contact the convention organizers.
Using your player group as the template, set the scale and types of
games offered based on what your local group is most interested in.

Now advertise through the list and the NASAMW pages. Everyone in your
local group has to commit to attending and playing or have really good
reasons for not being there. This is critical because you have to
give the impression of success so that next year people will be
willing to drive the 6 to 9 hours needed to get there. They are not
coming if there are only 4 or 6 players -- it isn't really worth their
time and effort. But, if you have 12 or 16 people then it starts to
look like a big event.

I don't know what the prize to player ratio is supposed to mean or how
it is relevant. It seems that you are saying that if we offer prizes
that people will show up.

I've found that this is true, but can be a problem as well.

I've jump-started events by offering prizes, and people do show up.
But, next year they expect more and better prizes.

Because getting prizes together is so hard and so difficult on the
vendors, it is better to keep prizes minimal and within the scope of
what can be paid for by any entry fees collected.

At a convention like Nashcon, where no entry fee is being charged
(although there is a convention fee), that means the prize is going
and having fun. Because we will have around half of the players as
completely new players, there will be some small prize for best
newbie. Otherwise the prize is the chance to go to the NICT for the
winner.

What sustains events, IMO, is the venue, the nature of the events
themselves, and the level of enjoyment that people get while there. A
well run event that has few real prizes but that leaves everyone
feeling pretty good about having attended is much more likely to draw
more people the next year.

Events that focus on prizes draw mercenaries -- and tend to become
contentious and not very enjoyable. They are big successes for a
short term, but not for the long haul.

Again, all IMO.

Larry

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 5/20/2004 12:53:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
larryessick@... writes:

> While you have built a local group and that group attends conventions,
> I am trying to focus on how do we go about getting our foot
> in the
> door and building a sustained presence at established shows.>>

Call to Arms and Border Wars are established (HAHMGS) shows. I have no idea why
you would think what I said is any different from what I was asking. I got our
foot in the door and built a sustained presence.

I think it best if we ended this thread - it is headed dangerously close to
NASAMW politics. Better to end it now and move it to NASAMW list if you desire
to continue.

J

[Larry Essick]

> Call to Arms and Border Wars are established (HAHMGS) shows. I have
no idea why you would think what I said is any different from what I
was asking. I got our foot in the door and built a sustained
presence.
>

Ah, you hadn't mentioned these conventions or your involvement in
them.

I'm not trying to be political at all. I just misunderstood your last
post as it seemed to be saying that you had built a local gaming group
that went to conventions.

So, what was it that you used in getting your foot in the door with
Call to Arms and Border Wars? How much time was involved, how did you
decide on what scale to offer, what format did you decide on and how
did you reach that decision, was it personally costly (money wise)?

I've found that it takes an investment of $200 to $300 with travel,
hotels, entrance fees, etc. That is a lot of money to risk just to
try to get something started -- especially if it doesn't meet with
success. That is why I talk about money, because people who want to
build conventions or get into existing cons should probably know that
they need to have some disposable income.

OTOH, maybe you have suggestions on how to reduce these costs.

I've mentioned scale decisions already. But, how about format
decisions? Did you start off with the intent of building tournaments?
What sort of non-tournament things have you considered? What are the
lessons learned?

I'm not trying to poke fingers or anything like that. I'm only trying
to get practical experiences out so that people can see them and, I
hope, avoid some of the mistakes that I've made.

So far this is just a two-way discussion, but I'm hoping to hear from
others.

IMO it isn't NASAMW related or political at all. Its intent is to
build a knowledge base so that we can see the hobby expand.

Larry

[Todd Schneider]

Larry,

As a participant with someknowledge of the KC
convention state, I'll add my two cents to this
converstaion.

There has been a strong Warrior prescense at the KC
convention for the past couple of years. Thats as
long as I've been participating, and it's mostly due
to Jon and Scotts location in the area. They are able
to put forth and attract the players.
And this is despite the local Con organizers, the
majority of whom do not like or want ancients in their
cons. Why? I am not sure. I am sure it has a lot to
do with personality clashes, but there is a very
entrprising member of the local chapter who runs very
effective "interference" for us, so we get to have our
Warrior tournament.

Taking the rest of your post in order:

--- larryessick@... wrote:

<<<While you have built a local group and that group
attends conventions,I am trying to focus on how do we
go about getting our foot in the door and building a
sustained presence at established shows.>>>

We always have at least 6 local members at cons...I
would guarentee 10 but I theres a couple of "Local"
out off towners who vary on their schedule.

<<<To use you and your group as an example, the way to
start is for one or two of you to take the lead and
contact the convention organizers. Using your player
group as the template, set the scale and types of
games offered based on what your local group is most
interested in.>>>

Larry, I will say with a large degree of certainty
that the KC group, mostly through Jon's Cat herding
abilites, plays more versions, in more scales, of
Warrior than any other group in the US.
IMO, our group is not a problem. And it cannot be
used as a template, because our participation is
already high due to the varity of warrior games we
play and playtest.

<<<Now advertise through the list and the NASAMW
pages. Everyone in your local group has to commit to
attending and playing or have really good reasons for
not being there. This is critical because you have to
give the impression of success so that next year
people will be willing to drive the 6 to 9 hours
needed to get there. They are not coming if there are
only 4 or 6 players -- it isn't really worth their
time and effort. But, if you have 12 or 16 people
then it starts to look like a big event.>>>

Larry, this past winter there was a big discussion on
the list about out of towners and tournaments. I
jumped in and proposed that the Spring Con in KC would
be a good choice for a lot of out of towners, in
particular the ROT guys, to come up to. The weekend
it falls on has very little conflict, KC is a three
hour plane flight from anywhere in the lower 48, and
the local support for the con is huge, better than
most cons of its size.

We got three out of towners. Maybe four, my memory is
a little fuzzy on that. And that was with Five months
of lead time and almost monthly reminders.

But I did spend an hour or so taling to Don Coon and
Pat Byrnes about the game in their community, and the
problem they were talking about is that they can't get
local players committed to playing a game locally on a
regular basis...so how are you going to get them to
commit to a Con, ecspecially if they have to travel?
That is, if they can't be troubled to trvael an hour
or so to play someone in Texas, how are they going to
be convinced to travel 14 by car or 3 by plane to KC?

Warrior in KC succeeds not because we have an average
of 10 people at a Con, its because we have an average
of 10 people playing it locally more than once a
month. I play, on avergae, 4-6 games of Warrior in
various formats a month. As far as I know, that puts
me way ahead of the curve in games played.

Why?

Because I am in a crowd that believes that local games
are just as if not more important than cons. The more
local games are played, the more interest your going
to have in Cons IMO.

Don Coon related a story of having a decent number of
guys who play Warrior in his area, but they don't get
together all that often for a game, for one reason or
another. Why not focus on them forst before focusing
on Cons?

<<<I don't know what the prize to player ratio is
supposed to mean or how it is relevant. It seems that
you are saying that if we offer prizes that people
will show up.>>>

If your driving 10 hours to a Con, wouldn't you like
to return with something, even if it's just a 10
dollar gift cert to a con vendor and a bag of
unpainted lead?

I admit, our con has great local backing. There was
money from NASAMW, DGS, TAPS, and every particpant
left with something. It's a carrot and stick
approach, in that I believe a guy is more likely to
travel if he knows he's going to come away with just
more than a few good "war" stories. And, as far as I
know, any KC con will have the highest amounts of
prize to particpant ratios out there.

<<<I've jump-started events by offering prizes, and
people do show up. But, next year they expect more
and better prizes.>>>

Well, if the prizes are already pretty good to begin
with, I don't see where this is a problem. It's not
the rookie draft of the NFL. Prizes aren't supposed
to increase per year, are they? Have the NICT prizes
gone up in value each year?

<<<Because getting prizes together is so hard and so
difficult on the vendors, it is better to keep prizes
minimal and within the scope of what can be paid for
by any entry fees collected.>>>

I cannot disagree with you more on this.

<<<At a convention like Nashcon, where no entry fee is
being charged (although there is a convention fee),
that means the prize is going and having fun. Because
we will have around half of the players as completely
new players, there will be some small prize for best
newbie. Otherwise the prize is the chance to go to
the NICT for the winner.
<<<What sustains events, IMO, is the venue, the nature
of the events themselves, and the level of enjoyment
that people get while there. A well run event that
has few real prizes but that leaves everyone feeling
pretty good about having attended is much more likely
to draw more people the next year.>>>

I don't think the venue matters all that much, at
least for local players. Out of towners might be a
different story, but I would suspect different reasons
for a guy not shoing up if his reason was "I hate Best
Westerns and can't go becuase the Con's in a Best
Western."

<<<Events that focus on prizes draw mercenaries -- and
tend to become contentious and not very enjoyable.
They are big successes for a short term, but not for
the long haul.>>>

The only "prize" that I have seen focused on in recent
memory is a NICT Invite...Usually beforehand everyone
in KC knows what the prizes are (with a couple of
exceptions), and there has never been any "mercenary"
behaivior, not that I could see. And honestly, if
your looking for more participants at a con, you have
to give them something tangible to show up for. Even
if it is a $10 goft cert and a bag of unpainted lead.

Todd

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 5/20/2004 16:10:59 Central Daylight Time,
mwbard@... writes:
A tournament may not be the best way to get people into Warrior...>>

AMEN!


Last Saturday we up here at Deep Strike ran a 'Trojan War' scenario using
Warrior rules as the basis, with an adaption allowing divine intervention
and heroic activities (it IS the Trojan War after all!) >>

Could you share your adaptations? Fantasy warrior will include a Greek
Mythology list and special rules and I'd like to see what you came up with...
You
can send them to me offline if you like..

Jon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Mike Bard]

A tournament may not be the best way to get people into Warrior...

Last Saturday we up here at Deep Strike ran a 'Trojan War' scenario using
Warrior rules as the basis, with an adaption allowing divine intervention
and heroic activities (it IS the Trojan War after all!) All together we had
eight players, of which only two had ever played in a Warrior tournament,
and only 5 were actively working (or had) armies. This way people had fun,
got a feel for the rules and the hobby, and two people (so far) have
expressed interest in getting their own armies (in addition to those who
already had or are). We're planning to run this at MIGS and HOT LEAD (next
year) and hopefully this will develop a new pool of players.

Pictures of the battle can be found at
http://www.deep-strike.com/events/trojanwarmegabattle.htm We are going to
post a copy of the rules used for the heroic combat and divine intervention
shortly.

Michael Bard
That Greek Hoplite Guy

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 5/20/2004 1:48:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
larryessick@... writes:

> So, what was it that you used in getting your foot in the door with
> Call to Arms and Border Wars? >>

Recruiting enough players to have an event that would not be embarrasingly small
and then contacting the event organizer and asking for space.

<< How much time was involved,>>

I don't know. Lots, if you count the recruiting and training. Not a lot to
make the actual con coordination.

<< how did you
> decide on what scale to offer,>>

Asking the people who would actually make the trip.

<< what format did you decide on and how
> did you reach that decision,>>

Offering ideas to the potential attendees and taking the majority.

<< was it personally costly
> (money wise)?>>

The con costs $10 to enter if you are in the military, or a student, $15
otherwise (the last one was free for military enlisted...)

Jon

[Jake Kovel]

Thought I 'd jump in here because I was the one who ran the Warrior event at
NashCon last year. I drove all the way from Connecticut (a two day trip) and
brought extra lead. I also ran an event there 3 years ago, dragging Scott
Holder along with me. We had small turn-outs but we had some fun. I cannot
attend this year because I am doing my Army Reserve annual training.

It does take a lot of work to keep events like these going and anyone who makes
the effort should be commended. Getting into a debate on who is doing enough to
support the hobby is not helping. What we should be discussing is different
ways to make our presence felt, not fighting amongst ourselves.
Jacob Kovel

[Larry Essick]

> Larry, I will say with a large degree of certainty
> that the KC group, mostly through Jon's Cat herding
> abilites, plays more versions, in more scales, of
> Warrior than any other group in the US.
> IMO, our group is not a problem. And it cannot be
> used as a template, because our participation is
> already high due to the varity of warrior games we
> play and playtest.

Hmm, so what scale and format was decided on? Jon says that he polled
people for their preference. Did that hold true thru both cons or do
you do different things at each of them?

> Larry, this past winter there was a big discussion on
> the list about out of towners and tournaments. I
> jumped in and proposed that the Spring Con in KC would
> be a good choice for a lot of out of towners, in
> particular the ROT guys, to come up to. The weekend
> it falls on has very little conflict, KC is a three
> hour plane flight from anywhere in the lower 48, and
> the local support for the con is huge, better than
> most cons of its size.
>
> We got three out of towners. Maybe four, my memory is
> a little fuzzy on that. And that was with Five months
> of lead time and almost monthly reminders.

:-) Sorry for the smile, but what you have just written is an
important point and it was much better coming from you than from me!

I think that a number of people have this idea that they can build a
big event like Cold Wars or Historicon with 40 or 60 people showing
up. But, the real truth is that the draw is guys who live pretty
close.

And, it stays like this for the most part.

Gulf South's DBM circuit is an exception because it draws players from
fairly long distances. But, it has been around for several years and
has really dedicated people taking care of each event along the
circuit.

> But I did spend an hour or so taling to Don Coon and
> Pat Byrnes about the game in their community, and the
> problem they were talking about is that they can't get
> local players committed to playing a game locally on a
> regular basis...so how are you going to get them to
> commit to a Con, ecspecially if they have to travel?
> That is, if they can't be troubled to trvael an hour
> or so to play someone in Texas, how are they going to
> be convinced to travel 14 by car or 3 by plane to KC?

:-) again! Here is where Jon's experiences can really help out. How
did he build the local group of players and how have you all expanded?
Are most of the guys new to the hobby or are they 'old' players who
have been re-energized?

> Warrior in KC succeeds not because we have an average
> of 10 people at a Con, its because we have an average
> of 10 people playing it locally more than once a
> month. I play, on avergae, 4-6 games of Warrior in
> various formats a month. As far as I know, that puts
> me way ahead of the curve in games played.

:-) more smiles....

I started in Indianapolis playing once a week, two games a night. By
the end of the first year I was playing 4 to 6 games a week. Playing
lots really helps build skill.

But, in all that time, I was the only 'new' player added to the group.

> Why?
>
> Because I am in a crowd that believes that local games
> are just as if not more important than cons. The more
> local games are played, the more interest your going
> to have in Cons IMO.
>
> Don Coon related a story of having a decent number of
> guys who play Warrior in his area, but they don't get
> together all that often for a game, for one reason or
> another. Why not focus on them forst before focusing
> on Cons?

Agreed. So maybe a separate discussion on how to recruit players
locally would be useful.

> <<<I don't know what the prize to player ratio is
> supposed to mean or how it is relevant. It seems that
> you are saying that if we offer prizes that people
> will show up.>>>
>
> If your driving 10 hours to a Con, wouldn't you like
> to return with something, even if it's just a 10
> dollar gift cert to a con vendor and a bag of
> unpainted lead?
>
> I admit, our con has great local backing. There was
> money from NASAMW, DGS, TAPS, and every particpant
> left with something. It's a carrot and stick
> approach, in that I believe a guy is more likely to
> travel if he knows he's going to come away with just
> more than a few good "war" stories. And, as far as I
> know, any KC con will have the highest amounts of
> prize to particpant ratios out there.

OK, now I have context for Jon's earlier comments. IMO we are a me
first society, so I guess people expect to get something for nothing.

No, I don't expect to get something just for driving 10 hours to a
con. I expect to see people I've not seen in a long time, meet new
people, BS a lot, pontificat even more, and have a good time. But
getting a prize of some sort is not my reason for going. I go to have
fun. If I win something then that is a bonus.

> <<<I've jump-started events by offering prizes, and
> people do show up. But, next year they expect more
> and better prizes.>>>
>
> Well, if the prizes are already pretty good to begin
> with, I don't see where this is a problem. It's not
> the rookie draft of the NFL. Prizes aren't supposed
> to increase per year, are they? Have the NICT prizes
> gone up in value each year?

:-) No, they've gone down -- dramatically. The situation is that
prizes cost somebody money. See my comments immediately below.

> <<<Because getting prizes together is so hard and so
> difficult on the vendors, it is better to keep prizes
> minimal and within the scope of what can be paid for
> by any entry fees collected.>>>
>
> I cannot disagree with you more on this.

Alright. We'll disagree. :-p

> The only "prize" that I have seen focused on in recent
> memory is a NICT Invite...Usually beforehand everyone
> in KC knows what the prizes are (with a couple of
> exceptions), and there has never been any "mercenary"
> behaivior, not that I could see. And honestly, if
> your looking for more participants at a con, you have
> to give them something tangible to show up for. Even
> if it is a $10 goft cert and a bag of unpainted lead.

So, how may events have you organized? Let's see, I just had a 32
player event in January, am planning a 6-8 player at-the-last-moment
event in 10 days. So, I need $400 in prizes to get these guys to show
up and it has to come from somewhere other than their entry money.

My limited experience is that I don't have that sort of cash floating
around and it takes a bit of work to get that much out of the usual
sources.

But, if that is what motivates people then I suppose my choice of the
word mercenary isn't too far off the mark.

OTOH, I think that prizes don't really draw people. You cited the
failure of out-of-towners to show up a to well advertized, well
coordinated, well rewarded con. IMO that indicates that people don't
go for the prizes -- at least most people do not go for the prizes.

Still, I've been wrong on lots of things before. How about someone
other than Jon and his player group chiming in. What are other
people's expectations?

Larry

[Larry Essick]

> << how did you
> > decide on what scale to offer,>>
>
> Asking the people who would actually make the trip.

Yeah, that's pretty much my experience. Sort of need to have good
commitments from a core of people and then work from their
expectations.

> << what format did you decide on and how
> > did you reach that decision,>>
>
> Offering ideas to the potential attendees and taking the majority.

See earlier comment.

> << was it personally costly
> > (money wise)?>>
>
> The con costs $10 to enter if you are in the military, or a student,
$15 otherwise (the last one was free for military enlisted...)

:-( I'm doing something wrong then. Did you run things close to home
so that you did not have hotel costs or travel costs?

Hilton McManus, a big force in the Gulf South DBM circuit, has said
that it is very important to have local organizers for events.

Nashcon is a good example. I'm really not a very good choice because
I don't live in or near the Nashville area. Taken with Todd's
observations on local player groups and development (which echo your
earlier points) this might be an extremely important bit of advice.

Larry

[Larry Essick]

> It does take a lot of work to keep events like these going and
anyone who makes the effort should be commended. Getting into a
debate on who is doing enough to support the hobby is not helping.
What we should be discussing is different ways to make our presence
felt, not fighting amongst ourselves.

:-( Hi Jake,

There isn't anyone saying "Hey look at me, I'm doing more than you
are!" IMO you are reading into this way too much.

The question is, what is needed to build a presence at an existing
convention.

So far we have had limited input, but seem to have the following:

1. Core group of very dedicated people with the time and interest to
put in the effort.
2. Peripheral group of local players who can fill most of the seats.
3. Scale and format decisions based on the desires of the peripheral
group and designed to get maximum support from them.
4. Some appropriate level of prize support.
5. Stick to local or close by conventions to minimize personal
expenses.

As a vendor, how does a person go about working with you and other
vendors to get prize support? Is this something that vendors are
generally reluctant to do?

Larry

[Ewan McNay]

> I think that a number of people have this idea that they can build a
> big event like Cold Wars or Historicon with 40 or 60 people showing
> up. But, the real truth is that the draw is guys who live pretty
> close.

This seems to vary. This last PointCon, for instance, I know
that Ed drew from PA, NJ, CT, and NY. That's not - to me - close
(and yeah, I still have a bit of the UK sense of distance).

>><<<I don't know what the prize to player ratio is
>>supposed to mean or how it is relevant. It seems that
>>you are saying that if we offer prizes that people
>>will show up.>>>
>>
>>If your driving 10 hours to a Con, wouldn't you like
>>to return with something, even if it's just a 10
>>dollar gift cert to a con vendor and a bag of
>>unpainted lead?

Well, no. Even if I won the event. There's only been one year
when I recall getting a significant prize - Chris and I got (I
think) $100 of lead for winning the team event - and I gave most
of that to Chris. I've been campaigning for a long time to get
rid of the plaques, which to me are just irrelevant at best, and
I would agree that it would be better to replace them something
like e.g. a single painted/based figure trophy, or (better) a
unit painted from a Theme army. But all of this is 100%
irrelevant to my gaming.

I go to the World Boardgaming Champs each year, which is a
10-hour drive and several hundred $ on hotel etc. Again, no
significant prizes (they have winners-only T-shirts, which are
cute but hardly renumerative).

I know of no-one in either hobby who attends for prizes.
Literally no-one. I'd be surprised to meet someone such.

> OK, now I have context for Jon's earlier comments. IMO we are a me
> first society, so I guess people expect to get something for nothing.

Disagree. The bullshitting is a reward, of course, but again not
somehting that requires $$. And that sense of camaraderie is
what needs to be built - but is difficult to do so other than
just being warm and responsive.

> No, I don't expect to get something just for driving 10 hours to a
> con. I expect to see people I've not seen in a long time, meet new
> people, BS a lot, pontificat even more, and have a good time. But
> getting a prize of some sort is not my reason for going. I go to have
> fun. If I win something then that is a bonus.

While this matches what I've said, I am willing to believe that
it is not what gets new folk to come back their second time. But
in that case, what is wanted is simply awards for
first-second-third con; after that, they should be in the circle
of gamers and come for the company.

>>Well, if the prizes are already pretty good to begin
>>with, I don't see where this is a problem. It's not
>>the rookie draft of the NFL. Prizes aren't supposed
>>to increase per year, are they? Have the NICT prizes
>>gone up in value each year?
>
> No, they've gone down -- dramatically. The situation is that
> prizes cost somebody money. See my comments immediately below.

They've gone down *and no-one cares*. I suppose I could be wrong
here - are there really NICT folk who play for some prize?

>>The only "prize" that I have seen focused on in recent
>>memory is a NICT Invite...Usually beforehand everyone
>>in KC knows what the prizes are (with a couple of
>>exceptions), and there has never been any "mercenary"
>>behaivior, not that I could see. And honestly, if
>>your looking for more participants at a con, you have
>>to give them something tangible to show up for. Even
>>if it is a $10 goft cert and a bag of unpainted lead.

This seems self-contradictory - if the prizes are not focussed
on, why is there a need to award them? Just curious.

And of course I have no time to paint lead even if I had it, so
that may sway me also .

e

[joncleaves]

In a message dated 5/20/2004 3:59:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
larryessick@... writes:

> How about someone
> other than Jon and his player group chiming in. What are
> other
> people's expectations?>>

Ok, Larry - you asked a bunch of questions of me and then ended with this -
which is it? lol

If you like my take on recruiting and on prizes/money (two quite separate
things) just ask.
J