Warrior Ancient and Medieval Rules

Scott,
Shouldn't the six figures shooting count as 12 since they are artillery and
not handgun? Also, wouldn't they get the benefit of 1 cpf causing disorder to
cavalry like rockets or fire lances (I believe thats what rockets or fire
lances do- something handgunners do not get). Let alone the high factors of 4.
These troop types would/should be effective against almost anyt troop type. 12
@ 4 is 36 points, 2 cpf to any 16 or 18 figure unit (normal size for reg and
irreg), a waver test (can't count shielded). For a six fgiure cav unit, that
would be 6 cpf, disorder (twice- once naptha, once 3 cpf), a wrecked unit. As
for elephants, any elephant unit, except the 4 element Raijput with attached
escort counting as 42 figures) would be disordered. An up one would even make
the Raijput unit humble. I think these guys, if used effectly, would be worth
the 17 points a piece for irregular. Maybe even more valuable if regular. This
would be a great buy for armies that have trouble dealing with elephants- were
do my poor Italians line up to get naptha bombs?

Sean

ps. I hope I remebered the rules right.

******************************************************************
Sean-Patrick Scott, PhD
Post-Doctoral Fellow at Georgia State University
Address: Temple University
Department of Biology
324 Biolife Science Building
1900 N. 12th Street
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19122
email: sscott04@...
webpage: http://athens.bio.temple.edu/scott/index.html
Phone:215-204-8868 Fax:215-204-6646
******************************************************************

You know, this sounds like an excellent compromise between FHE's
paradymn of not messing with the point cost structure and
adjusting/clarifying an "artillery" cost issue. Just make units, or
just this unit type, that use artillery factors count as two figures
per fig. Sure their a heck of a lot more expensive than carriage-
based artillery. But then again, conventional artillery can't
skirmish or even shoot if moved. If given the above, I'd give
greater consideration to that line/option in a list.

Besides, when you really think about it, whether you throw it, toss
it or shoot it, its all just a means of propelling artillery-based
ammunition.

Kevin


--- In WarriorRules@y..., Sean-Patrick Scott <sscott04@a...> wrote:
> Scott,
> Shouldn't the six figures shooting count as 12 since they are
artillery and
> not handgun? Also, wouldn't they get the benefit of 1 cpf causing
disorder to
> cavalry like rockets or fire lances (I believe thats what rockets
or fire
> lances do- something handgunners do not get). Let alone the high
factors of 4.
> These troop types would/should be effective against almost anyt
troop type. 12
> @ 4 is 36 points, 2 cpf to any 16 or 18 figure unit (normal size
for reg and
> irreg), a waver test (can't count shielded). For a six fgiure cav
unit, that
> would be 6 cpf, disorder (twice- once naptha, once 3 cpf), a
wrecked unit. As
> for elephants, any elephant unit, except the 4 element Raijput with
attached
> escort counting as 42 figures) would be disordered. An up one would
even make
> the Raijput unit humble. I think these guys, if used effectly,
would be worth
> the 17 points a piece for irregular. Maybe even more valuable if
regular. This
> would be a great buy for armies that have trouble dealing with
elephants- were
> do my poor Italians line up to get naptha bombs?
>
> Sean
>
> ps. I hope I remebered the rules right.
>
> ******************************************************************
> Sean-Patrick Scott, PhD
> Post-Doctoral Fellow at Georgia State University
> Address: Temple University
> Department of Biology
> 324 Biolife Science Building
> 1900 N. 12th Street
> Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19122
> email: sscott04@a...
> webpage: http://athens.bio.temple.edu/scott/index.html
> Phone:215-204-8868 Fax:215-204-6646
> ******************************************************************

[Greg Regets]

Is there historical justification for any of this? I don't know much about
them, but I assume these guys were some serious butt kickers in real life
... right?

G

-----Original Message-----
From: ksantos@... [mailto:ksantos@...]
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 8:48 AM
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [WarriorRules] Re: Where do I get naotha at 17 points a piece


You know, this sounds like an excellent compromise between FHE's
paradymn of not messing with the point cost structure and
adjusting/clarifying an "artillery" cost issue. Just make units, or
just this unit type, that use artillery factors count as two figures
per fig. Sure their a heck of a lot more expensive than carriage-
based artillery. But then again, conventional artillery can't
skirmish or even shoot if moved. If given the above, I'd give
greater consideration to that line/option in a list.

Besides, when you really think about it, whether you throw it, toss
it or shoot it, its all just a means of propelling artillery-based
ammunition.

Kevin


--- In WarriorRules@y..., Sean-Patrick Scott <sscott04@a...> wrote:
> Scott,
> Shouldn't the six figures shooting count as 12 since they are
artillery and
> not handgun? Also, wouldn't they get the benefit of 1 cpf causing
disorder to
> cavalry like rockets or fire lances (I believe thats what rockets
or fire
> lances do- something handgunners do not get). Let alone the high
factors of 4.
> These troop types would/should be effective against almost anyt
troop type. 12
> @ 4 is 36 points, 2 cpf to any 16 or 18 figure unit (normal size
for reg and
> irreg), a waver test (can't count shielded). For a six fgiure cav
unit, that
> would be 6 cpf, disorder (twice- once naptha, once 3 cpf), a
wrecked unit. As
> for elephants, any elephant unit, except the 4 element Raijput with
attached
> escort counting as 42 figures) would be disordered. An up one would
even make
> the Raijput unit humble. I think these guys, if used effectly,
would be worth
> the 17 points a piece for irregular. Maybe even more valuable if
regular. This
> would be a great buy for armies that have trouble dealing with
elephants- were
> do my poor Italians line up to get naptha bombs?
>
> Sean
>
> ps. I hope I remebered the rules right.
>
> ******************************************************************
> Sean-Patrick Scott, PhD
> Post-Doctoral Fellow at Georgia State University
> Address: Temple University
> Department of Biology
> 324 Biolife Science Building
> 1900 N. 12th Street
> Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19122
> email: sscott04@a...
> webpage: http://athens.bio.temple.edu/scott/index.html
> Phone:215-204-8868 Fax:215-204-6646
> ******************************************************************


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>Is there historical justification for any of this? I don't know much about
>them, but I assume these guys were some serious butt kickers in real life
>... right?
>
>G

If they were, don't you think we would have seen more of them?

STurner

[Greg Regets]

Ditto!

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Turner [mailto:sturner@...]
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 9:28 AM
To: WarriorRules@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [WarriorRules] Re: Where do I get naotha at 17 points a
piece


>Is there historical justification for any of this? I don't know much about
>them, but I assume these guys were some serious butt kickers in real life
>... right?
>
>G

If they were, don't you think we would have seen more of them?

STurner

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WarriorRules-unsubscribe@egroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Careful, you're rationalizing! As a general rule, "more" never
meant "better". To the contrary, "more" generally meant cheaper
conscripts to fill the ranks between the all too few "butt-kickers"
on the field.

Besides, the Ottoman attempt to bring their military into the
Napoleonic age was thwarted at every turn by hyper-nationalistic
fanatics within the military itself, despite the fact that all the
facts proved that the move to moderization would have significanty
increased their battle field effectiveness.

So, who knows why people do what they do despite the evidence.


Kevin


--- In WarriorRules@y..., Scott Turner <sturner@a...> wrote:
> >Is there historical justification for any of this? I don't know
much about
> >them, but I assume these guys were some serious butt kickers in
real life
> >... right?
> >
> >G
>
> If they were, don't you think we would have seen more of them?
>
> STurner

[scott holder]

Shouldn't the six figures shooting count as 12 since they are artillery and
not handgun?

>I don't think so although that's an interesting reading of the rules. I
*think* there is a distinction between artillery *crews* counting double
within effective range and *other* troops simply counting at artillery
factors. Naptha heaving people count as the latter.

Also, wouldn't they get the benefit of 1 cpf causing disorder to
cavalry like rockets or fire lances (I believe thats what rockets or fire
lances do- something handgunners do not get).

>That is correct in Scotty-world:)

Let alone the high factors of 4.
These troop types would/should be effective against almost anyt troop type. 12

@ 4 is 36 points, 2 cpf to any 16 or 18 figure unit (normal size for reg and
irreg), a waver test (can't count shielded). For a six fgiure cav unit, that
would be 6 cpf, disorder (twice- once naptha, once 3 cpf), a wrecked unit. As
for elephants, any elephant unit, except the 4 element Raijput with attached
escort counting as 42 figures) would be disordered. An up one would even make
the Raijput unit humble. I think these guys, if used effectly, would be worth
the 17 points a piece for irregular.

>Again, that's only if you count them double. I don't. Now they don't seem
so brutal.

Maybe even more valuable if regular. This
would be a great buy for armies that have trouble dealing with elephants- were

do my poor Italians line up to get naptha bombs?

>Heh heh. Naptha bomb types will be list dependent only, unlike incendiary
bows and the like.

>BTW, for what it's worth, DBM costs these guys at 8 points a pop, which is a
little over double of other psiloi.

Scott
List Ho

[scott holder]

A note: The naffatun troops, or "naptha corps" were an intergral part of
Abbassid armies. They had their roots from naval battles and seiges, mainly
against the Byzantines. However, it appears from what little information I
have is that they were part of field armies but their tactical use seems more
akin to an "engineering battalion" in modern parlance. But.....archeaological
finds of actual naptha pots in Old Cairo suggest that there were designed to
be flung by hand. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to have them simulated in
this game as LI.

>Shouldn't the six figures shooting count as 12 since they are artillery
> and not handgun?
>
>>I don't think so although that's an interesting reading of the rules.

Well, if not, then either HG is way cheap or naptha is *way* overpriced
. My Imperialists get 36 LI HG; they're regular, so cost me a whopping
3 points each. If the only benefit of having naptha instead would be to
disorder on 1CPF, is that really a 500% points-value increase?

{Um, no ]

>Hence my late-seeming interest in them. I certainly don't think HGs are too
cheap or have some preponderance (or lack thereof) on the battlefield in the
late medieval era covered under Warrior. And the 1CPF/disorder relationship
at 500% point value increase is out of whack.

While I actually agree with Scott on what the rules currently say
(there's a difference between artillery factors and artillery), I'd go
for the double-figure idea - as previously noted (by Kevin?) these *are*
artillery missiles.

>Well, this is what I was looking for from the group, alternative suggestions
on how to handle it. Right now I have two good ones, one from Ed Forbes on
paying for the LI as shieldless LI and then arm them with "shots" of naptha at
2 points each (assuming they're irregular). The second is from Kevin and that
is to keep them pointed as they are now but count them as artillery "crew" for
shooting and as such, they are always doubled (since they only have one
range).

>Do I have these two suggestions correct?

Scott
List Ho

[Ewan McNay]

>Shouldn't the six figures shooting count as 12 since they are artillery
> and not handgun?
>
>>I don't think so although that's an interesting reading of the rules.

Well, if not, then either HG is way cheap or naptha is *way* overpriced
. My Imperialists get 36 LI HG; they're regular, so cost me a whopping
3 points each. If the only benefit of having naptha instead would be to
disorder on 1CPF, is that really a 500% points-value increase?

{Um, no ]

While I actually agree with Scott on what the rules currently say
(there's a difference between artillery factors and artillery), I'd go
for the double-figure idea - as previously noted (by Kevin?) these *are*
artillery missiles.

Ewan

Yep, looks correct to me.

kevin

>
> >Well, this is what I was looking for from the group, alternative
suggestions
> on how to handle it. Right now I have two good ones, one from Ed
Forbes on
> paying for the LI as shieldless LI and then arm them with "shots"
of naptha at
> 2 points each (assuming they're irregular). The second is from
Kevin and that
> is to keep them pointed as they are now but count them as
artillery "crew" for
> shooting and as such, they are always doubled (since they only have
one
> range).
>
> >Do I have these two suggestions correct?
>
> Scott
> List Ho

Looks good to me 'n all. I DO prefer the second option tho. Double
up as art, worth the cost of admission to any list. Now, where them
durn heffalumps at? nyuk, nyuk, nyuk



--- In WarriorRules@y..., ksantos@n... wrote:
> Yep, looks correct to me.
>
> kevin
>
> >
> > >Well, this is what I was looking for from the group, alternative
> suggestions
> > on how to handle it. Right now I have two good ones, one from Ed
> Forbes on
> > paying for the LI as shieldless LI and then arm them with "shots"
> of naptha at
> > 2 points each (assuming they're irregular). The second is from
> Kevin and that
> > is to keep them pointed as they are now but count them as
> artillery "crew" for
> > shooting and as such, they are always doubled (since they only
have
> one
> > range).
> >
> > >Do I have these two suggestions correct?
> >
> > Scott
> > List Ho

Oops! Hit the send button too quick!

Would the LI be able to prep AND support shoot in the same bound,
like HG? Art get to do one OR the other, not both. I guess this is
because of the time it takes to reload the piece but lobbing clay
pots would take less time.

Cheers


--- In WarriorRules@y..., ksantos@n... wrote:
> Yep, looks correct to me.
>
> kevin
>
> >
> > >Well, this is what I was looking for from the group, alternative
> suggestions
> > on how to handle it. Right now I have two good ones, one from Ed
> Forbes on
> > paying for the LI as shieldless LI and then arm them with "shots"
> of naptha at
> > 2 points each (assuming they're irregular). The second is from
> Kevin and that
> > is to keep them pointed as they are now but count them as
> artillery "crew" for
> > shooting and as such, they are always doubled (since they only
have
> one
> > range).
> >
> > >Do I have these two suggestions correct?
> >
> > Scott
> > List Ho